Interesting wee read on Ireland's Slave history.

The Backwards Man · 20-10-2015 02:54AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's a "fuk da brits" thread? Really? Ok, go and find the OP's last post even mentioning "da brits" and come back to me. So effectively what your saying is Irish history can never ever be discussed if the Irish are the victims of British oppression because it's just an ulterior motive to say "fuk da brits".

Yep, it's a news dump about English slave traders, no word about the Barbary pirates or the Norsemen or anyone else that even a half arsed attempt at a genuine thread on Irish slaves would include.

BTW
I'm not arguing against the British oppression of Irish serfs at the time here, so you can stick the sanctimony back in your pocket. But if you're going to have a serious discussion on an issue like this, you have to look at the bigger picture.

The Golden Miller · 20-10-2015 02:56AM

LordSutch wrote: »

So this is a history thread about the slave trade & pirates from the 1600s ...

Maybe then it would be more appropriate to have this discussion in the History Forum, whare you can discuss this topic with people who know their onions 'sort to speak' re the 1600s.

You base this thread on a book by John Martin, and here is an excerpt from his book ...

The book starts off > "From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English... and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well".

Interestingly I seem to remember this very book by John Martin popping up in another thread a week or two ago, and it transpired that those numbers above, were (not surprisingly) totally skewed :cool:

Whats the real purpose of this thread?

OK, give us the real figures then. And your only qualm is the figures, the rest is accurate then?

LordSutch · 20-10-2015 03:03AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

OK, give us the real figures then. And your only qualm is the figures, the rest is accurate then?

If 500.000 Irish people were killed by "The English" within such a short space of time, don't you think we would we would have heard about it before now? < these figures are of an unrealistic holocaust figure scale!

Ther other thread I mention suggests that the casualties from the American Civil War have been added into the figures + otheh glaring anomolies.

Hence my suggestion to put this thread (about the 1600s) into the History Forum, where it can properly be debated by "history heads" who know their history from the 1600s. Then you will get facts & figures.

The Golden Miller · 20-10-2015 03:09AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yep, it's a news dump about English slave traders, no word about the Barbary pirates or the Norsemen or anyone else that even a half arsed attempt at a genuine thread on Irish slaves would include.

BTW
I'm not arguing against the British oppression of Irish serfs at the time here, so you can stick the sanctimony back in your pocket. But if you're going to have a serious discussion on an issue like this, you have to look at the bigger picture.

Well going by the posters posting history, this ulterior motive is a major assumption. Also, due the fact that not a whole lot of people know about this period, it's not surprising that the poster gave an overview of the issue. When discussing the 1916 rising for example, is the topic a mockery with an ulterior motive when English men who fought on the side of the rebels aren't mentioned i.e the smaller lesser known issues? Surely the main players and instigators like England should be the one's mentioned as little is known of the issue and the discussion can evolve? But I suppose that's always going to be stifled when people like you come on here sneering and talking about ulterior motives because the Irish were the victims, and we can't talk about our own victims unless we're armchair republicans who shout "**** da brits" at every opportunity, right?

The Golden Miller · 20-10-2015 03:11AM

LordSutch wrote: »

If 500.000 Irish people were killed by "The English" within such a short space of time, don't you think we would we would have heard about it before now? < these figures are of an unrealistic holocaust figure scale!

Ther other thread I mention suggests that the casualties from the American Civil War have been added into the figures + otheh glaring anomolies.

Hence my suggestion to put this thread (about the 1600s) into the History Forum, where it can properly be debated by "history heads" who know their history from the 1600s. Then you will get facts & figures.

So you can't provide figures and you agree that the over-lying issue still stands regardless if the figures are a bit off?

LordSutch · 20-10-2015 03:14AM

History Forum please . . .

This can only turn into an excuse for a Brit bashing exercise, based on dubious "facts" by a sensationalist author, obviously with an agenda based axe to grind left over (from the 1600s)?

This thread (claims) really should be scrutinised in The History Forum.

Sonderkommando · 20-10-2015 03:16AM

Martial9 wrote: »

He sounds more Irish than a lot of Irish people. That is amazing. How is it possible that the accent survived so long there? He sounds so Irish you could imagine the chap holding court and spinning a yarn in a West Cork local on a Sunday!

There was a fascinating documentary on tg4 called the red legs some years back that told the story of their history and interviewed many of the descendent's still living today.

It really was fascinating listening to their accents and seeing how they live today, sadly I have not seen the documentary repeated or show up online.

Also Sean O'Callahan's book To hell or Barbados is a must read for anybody interested in almost forgotten Irish history.

brocbrocach · 20-10-2015 03:20AM

LordSutch wrote: »

History Forum please . . .

This can only turn into an excuse for a Brit bashing exercise, based on dubious "facts" by a sensationalist author, obviously with an agenda based axe to grind left over (from the 1600s)?

This thread (claims) really should be scrutinised in The History Forum.

Historical stuff doesnt need to be shovelled off - its fine here as a general point of information about the past.

Sunnyisland · 20-10-2015 03:35AM

Thanks for that OP, never knew that, I had heard of the Irish islands in the Caribbean but never had any knowledge of the rest, Interesting.

MakeEmLaugh · 20-10-2015 05:28AM

Hagar7 wrote: »

But, if anyone, black or white, believes that slavery was only an African experience, then they’ve got it completely wrong.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Indentured is a fancy word for enslavement in fairness, it's all servitude.

Even the hiring fairs, which my own granny was a victim of in the 1930s when the Free State was well established, were a form of servitude. That's not even a hundred years ago and she always spoke highly of her 'employer' as he didn't beat or rape her. As I said earlier, the world is a different place now.

Would you disagree with Liam Hogan that black Africans had it worse in the Caribbean than the white Irish did?

After all, as Hogan argues, the children of the white Irish in servitude weren't taken off them and sold as slaves.

Also, the white Irish would work for what he calls "a set period of time (between two and seven years)", whereas black Africans worked until they were dead, whether that was of natural causes or not.

Nodin · 20-10-2015 05:36AM

LordSutch wrote: »

So this is a history thread about the slave trade & pirates from the 1600s ...

Maybe then it would be more appropriate to have this discussion in the History Forum,.............

You'll never move on unless you face the truth sutch. Coming on and indulging in embarrassing apologia will avail thee naught.

ezra_pound · 20-10-2015 06:04AM

LordSutch wrote: »

If 500.000 Irish people were killed by "The English" within such a short space of time, don't you think we would we would have heard about it before now? < these figures are of an unrealistic holocaust figure scale!

Ther other thread I mention suggests that the casualties from the American Civil War have been added into the figures + otheh glaring anomolies.

Hence my suggestion to put this thread (about the 1600s) into the History Forum, where it can properly be debated by "history heads" who know their history from the 1600s. Then you will get facts & figures.

The Cromwellian war in Ireland IS typically considered on a holocaust scale.

I believe that there is a huge disparity between indentured servants and slaves, and I agree that the op is just an anti English rant... but the 500,000 killed figure seems plausible. However most modern historians suggest a figure of around 20%, which is more like 300k.

Interestingly, though, the Wikipedia figure of deportations from that decade is only 50k as opposed to the 300k in the op!

"Cromwellian conquest of Ireland" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland?wprov=sfia1

The impact of the war on the Irish population was unquestionably severe, although there is no consensus as to the magnitude of the loss of life. The war resulted in famine, which was worsened by an outbreak of bubonic plague. Estimates of the drop in the Irish population resulting from the Parliamentarian campaign range between 15–25[7]-50[8][9]-83%.[10] The Parliamentarians also deported about 50,000 people as indentured labourers.

Fratton Fred · 20-10-2015 06:20AM

Interesting story in the OP. It's on the internet, so it must be true

RobertKK wrote: »

St Patrick's day is a public holiday on Montserrat.

That's right.

http://blog.visitmontserrat.com/st-patricks-day/

Local historian Sir Howard Fergus explains that the first large-scale rebellion on Montserrat was planned in 1768 for March 17th, the day that slaves knew their Irish masters would be celebrating St. Patrick’s Day and otherwise distracted with drink and dance (History of Alliouagana: A Short History of Montserrat, 1975). As the story goes, the rebellion failed when someone revealed the plan, but Montserratians have commemorated St. Patrick’s Day since 1984 as the first attempted slave insurrection on the island. The event was a major step in the movement towards emancipation, which was finally achieved in 1834,

ezra_pound · 20-10-2015 06:27AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Interesting story in the OP. It's on the internet, so it must be true

That's right.

http://blog.visitmontserrat.com/st-patricks-day/

Local historian Sir Howard Fergus explains that the first large-scale rebellion on Montserrat was planned in 1768 for March 17th, the day that slaves knew their Irish masters would be celebrating St. Patrick’s Day and otherwise distracted with drink and dance (History of Alliouagana: A Short History of Montserrat, 1975). As the story goes, the rebellion failed when someone revealed the plan, but Montserratians have commemorated St. Patrick’s Day since 1984 as the first attempted slave insurrection on the island. The event was a major step in the movement towards emancipation, which was finally achieved in 1834,

k

"...knew their Irish masters would be celebrating St. Patrick’s Day"

laugh · 20-10-2015 06:57AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Interesting story in the OP. It's on the internet, so it must be true

That's right.

http://blog.visitmontserrat.com/st-patricks-day/

Local historian Sir Howard Fergus explains that the first large-scale rebellion on Montserrat was planned in 1768 for March 17th, the day that slaves knew their Irish masters would be celebrating St. Patrick’s Day and otherwise distracted with drink and dance (History of Alliouagana: A Short History of Montserrat, 1975). As the story goes, the rebellion failed when someone revealed the plan, but Montserratians have commemorated St. Patrick’s Day since 1984 as the first attempted slave insurrection on the island. The event was a major step in the movement towards emancipation, which was finally achieved in 1834,

That's a randomers blog?

Fratton Fred · 20-10-2015 07:14AM

laugh wrote: »

That's a randomers blog?

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/slavery/montserrat.htm

And as you obviously object to randomers blogs (which is exactly what the OP has linked to) here is an alternative, far less dramatic, appraisal of the book mentioned in the original article.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/books/review/Lau-t.html?referer=

Azalea · 20-10-2015 08:24AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yep that's exactly what I said. Well done

It's a 'Fuk Da Brits' thread, and any discussion about slavery and the hundreds of thousands of Irish that suffered it's horrible end, not to mention the thousands that profited from it, is purely incidental.

It's a "fuk da Brits" thread? Based on what? You just seem to be thread-spoiling for the craic.
The whataboutery drum you keep beating is "There was a bigger picture". Fine. So what? Why does that mean the topic in and of itself can't be discussed? Why are you so hellbent on shutting down discussion?

LordSutch wrote: »

History Forum please . . .

This can only turn into an excuse for a Brit bashing exercise, based on dubious "facts" by a sensationalist author, obviously with an agenda based axe to grind left over (from the 1600s)?

This thread (claims) really should be scrutinised in The History Forum.

Who made you a mod? What's dubious about the facts and where's the obvious axe to grind?

Azalea · 20-10-2015 08:37AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/slavery/montserrat.htm

And as you obviously object to randomers blogs (which is exactly what the OP has linked to) here is an alternative, far less dramatic, appraisal of the book mentioned in the original article.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/books/review/Lau-t.html?referer=

What's random blog about what the OP links to?

It's a topic that does get used to have a go at the British or simply to state black people weren't the only slaves, but I see evidence of neither in the OP.

Shrap · 20-10-2015 08:55AM

What's most frightening about this meme of the "Irish were slaves too" is that it is being used by white supremacists and Neo-Nazis world-wide to diminish the fact of black slavery around the world. We should be very, very careful with our facts under the circumstances and remember that paper never refused ink.

For example (and you'll find many, many more if you look at the gun-toting hard right websites throughout the US):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQTGRlyWoAAd5AQ.jpg:large

https://dy1m18dp41gup.cloudfront.net/cdn/farfuture/u_VS6-xyopaWeP8U3sHtt8JFJaIDK7qL_6MFJwVWnA8/mtime:1431935938/files/imagecache/article_xlarge/wysiwyg_imageupload/555228/Hogan_Irish_power.png

Yodeling Snake · 20-10-2015 09:02AM

LordSutch wrote: »

< these figures are of an unrealistic holocaust figure scale!

Your not one of these mugs who swallowed that holohoax palaver are you?

The Backwards Man · 20-10-2015 09:07AM

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Would you disagree with Liam Hogan that black Africans had it worse in the Caribbean than the white Irish did?

After all, as Hogan argues, the children of the white Irish in servitude weren't taken off them and sold as slaves.

Also, the white Irish would work for what he calls "a set period of time (between two and seven years)", whereas black Africans worked until they were dead, whether that was of natural causes or not.

Yep, they had it much much worse, no doubt about that, though some of the history pickers in this thread might have something to say about that.

But it was still a form of slavery, I've no doubt about that either.

Galwayguy35 · 20-10-2015 09:14AM

Amazing that quite an interesting thread is posted about our history and all we get from other Irish people is whinging.

Scroll down if you don't want to read it.

Shrap · 20-10-2015 09:20AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Amazing that quite an interesting thread is posted about our history and all we get from other Irish people is whinging.

Scroll down if you don't want to read it.

I personally think that it's quite important to counter white supremacists wherever we find them. In this case, they and their culture of racism are the very reason that this "Irish Slaves" meme has taken off in recent times. In fact, they and their denial of the atrocities that occurred under slavery to black people are exactly why we are now hearing about "Irish Slavery". So whatever about the truth of the meme, we should all be aware of why it's now being promulgated.

That's not whinging, that's advising caution btw.

Azalea · 20-10-2015 09:25AM

Yes it is clung to by white supremacists but where is the evidence of that on this thread?

Shrap · 20-10-2015 09:31AM

Azalea wrote: »

Yes it is clung to by white supremacists but where is the evidence of that on this thread?

Oh I agree. I'm just making people aware of why we are now hearing this about "Irish Slavery". There is probably a reason we didn't learn about it under those terms in school, and my spidey senses go a bit mad with the tingling whenever something like this is jumped on by US tea-party conservatives and waaay more sinister right wingers than them.

I personally would need a whole lot more by way of research and facts than just one book written by just one guy, to be calling it "Irish Slavery" because of the way it is currently being used by White Supremacists. That's all.

Martial9 · 20-10-2015 10:59AM

Shrap wrote: »

Oh I agree. I'm just making people aware of why we are now hearing this about "Irish Slavery". There is probably a reason we didn't learn about it under those terms in school, and my spidey senses go a bit mad with the tingling whenever something like this is jumped on by US tea-party conservatives and waaay more sinister right wingers than them.

So we shouldn't discuss and talk about our peoples history because some fruit loops in America use it to score political points?

Yeah, no.

Shrap · 20-10-2015 11:02AM

Martial9 wrote: »

So we shouldn't discuss and talk about our peoples history because some fruit loops in America use it to score political points?

Yeah, no.

Did I say we shouldn't discuss it?

Eh, no.

I said we should be extremely careful with our facts because paper never refused ink. Check it out. I made myself very clear.

brocbrocach · 20-10-2015 11:06AM

Shrap wrote: »

Oh I agree. I'm just making people aware of why we are now hearing this about "Irish Slavery". There is probably a reason we didn't learn about it under those terms in school, and my spidey senses go a bit mad with the tingling whenever something like this is jumped on by US tea-party conservatives and waaay more sinister right wingers than them.

I personally would need a whole lot more by way of research and facts than just one book written by just one guy, to be calling it "Irish Slavery" because of the way it is currently being used by White Supremacists. That's all.

Why do you feel the need to filter something terrible that happened to a huge amount of Irish people through a cultural sieve that has nothing to do with it?
You live in Ireland. US politics, sinister right wingers and White supremacists don't enter the discussion. Your spidey senses are possibly bent out of shape and you should get them looked at.

Martial9 · 20-10-2015 11:12AM

Shrap wrote: »

Did I say we shouldn't discuss it?

Eh, no.

I said we should be extremely careful with our facts because paper never refused ink. Check it out. I made myself very clear.

You've came in here waffling on about exercising caution discussing the issue because some people in the US use the history of Irish slavery/indentured servitude to score political points.

Which is extremely odd as nobody on here was using it to downplay the transatlantic slave trade and this is an Irish board, not an American one.

Shrap · 20-10-2015 11:34AM

You're being very defensive peeps. If you think our Irish history being hyped up and used by White Supremacists is none of our business, then grand. Me however, I have a problem with it, so I'd like my facts straight first and I think it's fair to say that not many of us have heard of this "slavery" till now. Personally (important word; I've used it a few times above) I'm going with caution, which of course shouldn't stop ye from carrying on regardless....

Knock yerselves out

Interesting wee read on Ireland's Slave history.

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