Warwick student rejects consent lessons.

15-10-2015 06:08PM

Any rape is damaging.

Honestly, you're not really explaining yourself well. But I get what you're kind of saying - someone who violently rapes someone shouldn't be lumped in with someone who has a drunken fling, where the person didn't or was unable to give consent. But both are rape. Both are as damaging to someone than the other.

But then you have the flipside of the coin, just to offer another side to the argument - how can it be proven that consent wasn't given. Should we automatically assume that anyone who has consumed any amount of alcohol is unable to? Obviously you have the whole thing that someone who is too drunk to function obviously wouldn't be able to give consent, but in other cases, what protection is there for the one being accused of the rape?

Zillah · 15-10-2015 06:09PM

I'm so glad some of the men who don't understand consent and rape have come out of the woodwork as a nice demonstration for how it is by no means a forgone conclusion that this is obvious and simple to everyone.

EazyD · 15-10-2015 06:10PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any rape is damaging.

Honestly, you're not really explaining yourself well. But I get what you're kind of saying - someone is violently rapes someone shouldn't be lumped in with someone who has a drunken fling, where the person didn't or was unable to give consent. But both are rape. Both are as damaging to someone than the other.

But then you have the flipside of the coin, just to offer another side to the argument - how can it be proven that consent wasn't given. Should we automatically assume that anyone who has consumed any amount of alcohol is unable to? Obviously you have the whole thing that someone who is too drunk to function obviously wouldn't be able to give consent, but in other cases, what protection is there for the one being accused of the rape?

That I can agree with, I'm groggy and just off work so apologies for my perceived ramblings.

Nichard Dixon · 15-10-2015 06:10PM

conorhal wrote: »

Perhaps an app would be best, their iPhones are the only things millennials pay attention to. They may well the the first generation to spend more time at opposite ends the sofa staring silently into glowing screens rather then getting busy on it.

Good plan, you type in the consent password on your phone and I do on mine and they link on Bluetooth and play Ravel's Bolero.

zeffabelli · 15-10-2015 06:13PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

So when I was drunk and a sober girl had sex with me I was raped? Surely it's not any alcohol at all?

Yes I think technically.

Your consent is invalidated.

It's the end of fun.

zeffabelli · 15-10-2015 06:15PM

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Good plan, you type in the consent password on your phone and I do on mine and they link on Bluetooth and play Ravel's Bolero.

To think iOS used to have an app for this.

Yes folks this is where we have arrived, the end of fun, the apocalypse of sensuality.

Requin Mange · 15-10-2015 06:16PM

Medusa22 wrote: »

I have to say that having read his article, that I agree with him in the sense that I don't believe that consent classes will help to prevent rapes. The majority of people are not rapists and they already know how to interact with other humans and how to obtain consent. Sometimes the situation is a bit more nuanced, as we have had countless threads on what is and isn't rape on AH, and also what is and is not consent.

I disagree with his posting a photo of himself holding a sign that reads ''This is not what a rapist looks like'', unfortunately there is no way to identify what a rapist looks like, they don't wear signs and there is no certain ''look'', otherwise we'd be able to identify them for ourselves.

He's basically saying he isn't a rapist. If it's true that he isn't a rapist then the the sign is correct, that is not what a rapist looks like unless he has a perfect double or a twin who is a rapist.

EazyD · 15-10-2015 06:16PM

Zillah wrote: »

I'm so glad some of the men who don't understand consent and rape have come out of the woodwork as a nice demonstration for how it is by no means a forgone conclusion that this is obvious and simple to everyone.

Or perhaps just maybe some of us can discuss such a sensitive topic from different angles without being labelled a rape apologist/ignorant of consent. Thanks for the sentiment nonetheless.

steddyeddy · 15-10-2015 06:17PM

Zillah wrote: »

I'm so glad some of the men who don't understand consent and rape have come out of the woodwork as a nice demonstration for how it is by no means a forgone conclusion that this is obvious and simple to everyone.

So we should aim these classes at men?

steddyeddy · 15-10-2015 06:18PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yes I think technically.

Your consent is invalidated.

It's the end of fun.

That's crackers and damaging to actual rape victims.

zeffabelli · 15-10-2015 06:19PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's crackers and damaging to actual rape victims.

It's also damaging to people like myself whose consent is invalidated because of alcohol and all of a sudden I'm a rape victim.

**** off.

Requin Mange · 15-10-2015 06:20PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's also damaging to people like myself whose consent is invalidated because of alcohol and all of a sudden I'm a rape victim.

**** off.

It's damaging to tell someone to fukc off, you don't seem to care though.

zeffabelli · 15-10-2015 06:22PM

EazyD wrote: »

My point exactly. I might be initially traumatised to find out the bloke I'm sleeping with isn't called Steve but it's hardly going to be on the same level as having someone forcefully do it at knifepoint.

There was a famous case in Israel where a man presented as Israeli and it turned out he was Palestinian and he was charged with rape.

You have what are essentially laws against seduction now... Far less clear cut... But labelled as rape laws.

15-10-2015 06:24PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's also damaging to people like myself whose consent is invalidated because of alcohol and all of a sudden I'm a rape victim.

**** off.

I actually agree with this.

I've had a few one night stands that involved alcohol, so according to this recent trend, they're a rape victim and I'm a rapist. Instead of just being two adults who wanted to bang.

zeffabelli · 15-10-2015 06:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I actually agree with this.

I've had a few one night stands that involved alcohol, so according to this recent trend, they're a rape victim and I'm a rapist. Instead of just being two adults who wanted to bang.

Yeah I think so... It's too depressing for words.

Binary bl

EazyD · 15-10-2015 06:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I actually agree with this.

I've had a few one night stands that involved alcohol, so according to this recent trend, they're a rape victim and I'm a rapist. Instead of just being two adults who wanted to bang.

And that's the point I'm making. When you were drunk as he/she was I highly doubt you or they turned around asked "permission", that is taken as a given. That does however (rather stupidly) leave you open to prosecution if the other party claims no-consent after they regret the act.

Tarzana2 · 15-10-2015 06:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If somewhere had a "how not to steal" course aimed at Black people, you'd know there'd be uproar about it.

And it's not a "hissy fit", it's justified annoyance and anger over being labelled a potential rapist because I have a penis.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that the course is just for men.

15-10-2015 06:33PM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be any indication that the course is just for men.

That's why I asked whether it was and was in response to someone asking if these classes should be aimed at men, because a high proportion of rapists are male.

pocketkings · 15-10-2015 06:50PM

I came home from the pub the other night after 5 or 6 pints and had sex with my girlfriend. Serious question, should I press charges against her? I feel that the only fair outcome here is if she sees some jail time. Not much, just a year or two. She's a nice girl.

Tarzana2 · 15-10-2015 07:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually agree with this.

I've had a few one night stands that involved alcohol, so according to this recent trend, they're a rape victim and I'm a rapist.

Don't be silly. That's not it at all. Whether alcohol was involved or not doesn't matter if you both consented.

Deleted User wrote: »

That's why I asked whether it was and was in response to someone asking if these classes should be aimed at men, because a high proportion of rapists are male.

Then shouldn't you wait for clarification before getting worked up?

pocketkings · 15-10-2015 07:04PM

Actually, it definitely does matter, since consent is apparently invalidated by alcohol.

Tarzana2 · 15-10-2015 07:08PM

pocketkings wrote: »

Actually, it definitely does matter, since consent is apparently invalidated by alcohol.

I doubt anyone would argue that alcohol consumption alone invalidates consent. Someone has three drinks and that makes their consent invalid? Hardly. It's referring to people who are clearly very worse for wear and barely conscious or coherent.

15-10-2015 07:09PM

pocketkings wrote: »

Actually, it definitely does matter, since consent is apparently invalidated by alcohol.

Consent is invalid if a person is so incapacitated by alcohol that they can't be aware of what they're doing, or what they're consenting to.

I'm sure no one objects to that, because without it any drunk man or woman would be fair game. Nobody wants that, surely.

15-10-2015 07:34PM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Hi newbie. \o

I'd consider the following is getting worked up. You don't, that's your call.

That's not getting worked up. That's bringing up a justified point, which is also based on points brought up in the quoted article. I'm assuming you read it, right?

And then there's the question of how you can prove there was no consent given by the other party. Take a scenario where I have drunken sex with someone; we've both had considerable amounts of alcohol taken. Then the other person turns around and says that there was no consent given. What protections do I have? None. Everyone will assume that I'm a rapist.

That's not a good thing.

wakka12 · 15-10-2015 07:36PM

pocketkings wrote: »

Actually, it definitely does matter, since consent is apparently invalidated by alcohol.

Not just any amount of alcohol . Its only in exceptional circumstances, anytime Ive heard of men being charged with rape for having sex with a drunk girl she's been black out drunk. And they don't just go off word alone, they ask around to shop keepers who can confirm the girl was slurring her speech and wasnt coherent, and cctv footage shows her stumbling /unable to stand up etc..

Its not quite as cut and dry as people make it out to be. I don't think any man has ever gone away for getting off with a girl who had a pint an hour earlier. Though many on here would try to convince you otherwise

Dick phelan · 15-10-2015 07:37PM

What a joke "consent classes" Do they honestly think a rapist is going to realize they are doing wrong because of some stupid class? Personally as a male i find it offensive, it's putting forward the idea that men need to be thought that rape is wrong and that men are by nature likely to rape.

Tarzana2 · 15-10-2015 07:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not getting worked up. That's bringing up a justified point, which is also based on points brought up in the quoted article. I'm assuming you read it, right?

I did.

Deleted User wrote: »

And then there's the question of how you can prove there was no consent given by the other party. Take a scenario where I have drunken sex with someone; we've both had considerable amounts of alcohol taken. Then the other person turns around and says that there was no consent given. What protections do I have? None. Everyone will assume that I'm a rapist.

Not necessarily, I'd say the accuser is at more of a disadvantage as it is difficult to prove. Now, I think that people accused of rape should be afforded anonymity unless they are found guilty. But I think this kind of case is difficult to prove, so people who didn't get consent have probably gotten away with in the past too, as well as people making false accusations because they regret that one night stand. It's a tricky area.

Lord PuppyMcSnuggle of Cuddleshire · 15-10-2015 07:57PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

You have rape by force and rape by fraud now. (Lies. Telling her a false name, false profession, nationality...etc)

Profession, really? "But he implied he was rich, I wouldn't have had sex with him otherwise!". Is it ok to start calling women gold-diggers yet? Or is that still misogyny? I'm getting mixed messages here.

Gongoozler · 15-10-2015 07:57PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Not just any amount of alcohol . Its only in exceptional circumstances, anytime Ive heard of men being charged with rape for having sex with a drunk girl she's been black out drunk. And they don't just go off word alone, they ask around to shop keepers who can confirm the girl was slurring her speech and wasnt coherent, and cctv footage shows her stumbling /unable to stand up etc..

Its not quite as cut and dry as people make it out to be. I don't think any man has ever gone away for getting off with a girl who had a pint an hour earlier. Though many on here would try to convince you otherwise

Have you read the Ched Evans case? The girl was clearly fit, she was heard of be asking for all sorts and a jury still found him guilty of rape.

Unless there's some very crucial evidence that hasn't been released to the public for some reason, there's no way he should have been found guilty of rape in the circumstances.

So my point was that if you can get prosecuted and imprisoned for having sex with someone who's drunk but is coherent and engaging (and literally asking for it) then the general public needs to be informed. Cause there's people getting raped all over the shop. In fact maybe I should hand myself in, I'm very fcuking guilty.

Anita Blow · 15-10-2015 07:58PM

I think the whole drunk consent issue is a massive grey and the recent narrative around "alcohol invalidates consent" sets a dangerous precedent. Essentially it makes all drunk encounters rape by default, and leaves the woman to decide whether rape has occurred or not.
I'm of course not talking about any clear-cut situation where one party is unconscious or near-unconscious while the other is relatively sober. I'm talking about probably a fairly common situation where both parties are both equally well-on and have sex with each other. No force used or active denial of consent at the time, but one party wakes up the next day and decides sober that in hindsight they didn't want to have sex that night.

I'm only saying this in the context that I've seen a lot of SU campaigns recently targeting males have sex with women on nights out and who push the narrative I've described.

Warwick student rejects consent lessons.

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