Taboo status of suicide

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 09:57AM #1

Was just reading the news and came across this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hundreds-expected-at-removal-of-cathriona-white-in-tipperary-tonight-699860.html

So despite the fact that in all of the campaigns we're urged to talk about it, a suicide as high profile and widely reported as this is written off as a "sudden death"?? This is completely outrageous. How can we expect people to not be ashamed of this if it can't even be commented on publicly?

seamus · 09-10-2015 10:05AM

I would have agreed with you previously, but one of the more bizarre phenomena around suicide is that specific cases receiving high levels of exposure actually leads to more suicides.

One would think that a frank and open display/advertisement of the pain and suffering caused by a person's suicide would serve to dissaude others from choosing the same route. But suicidal people are not rational and so counter-intuitively, excessive reporting on suicides leads to more suicides.

It's just one more thing to make it even tougher to tackle.

Though:

How can we expect people to not be ashamed of this if it can't even be commented on publicly?

Who should be ashamed of this girl's suicide? And why?

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 10:09AM

I do appreciate that, but it is already known that she committed suicide. They are reporting on her removal and omitting the fact, reporting instead that her death was sudden.

We need to talk about these things constructively, not sweep them under the carpet.

seamus wrote: »

Though:
Who should be ashamed of this girl's suicide? And why?

Maybe an incorrect choice of words, but there is campaign for people to talk about and not be ashamed of their feelings.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 09-10-2015 10:17AM

I think it's really unfair to put other people's happiness on top of a suicidal person
"Don't kill yourself because your friends will be devastated and your boyfriend would never get over it".

Someone in that state has enough trouble trying to cope with their own feelings without dumping others on top of them too.

jamesbere · 09-10-2015 10:17AM

Suicide leaves alot of unanswered questions more then answers them. There can be some many different factors in play that it can be so difficult to get through to someone.

I came close to taking my own life, you just fall down a hole and see not way out. I just got a moment of clarity and stopped what I was doing. Talking to someone does help but I can easily see how your mind can get so clouded you don't see an alternative.

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 10:25AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I think it's really unfair to put other people's happiness on top of a suicidal.
"Don't kill yourself because your friends will be devastated and your boyfriend would never get over it".

Someone in that state has enough trouble trying to cope with their own feelings without dumping others on top of them too.

Agreed, that kid from Tralee that died of cancer last year was a prime example of this. Not responsible, because he was a child and dying, however I think those who put him in the spot light and allowed what he said to be broadcast over and over was extremely irresponsible. He didn't understand what it was like to be depressed and suicidal, just as others don't understand what it is like to have terminal cancer.

secondattempt · 09-10-2015 10:27AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

"Don't kill yourself because your friends will be devastated and your boyfriend would never get it

A reason to live? Your life is so bad and has no meaning but the one bit of meaning you can give it is to spare others pain and by not committing suicide help stop the knock on of other people killing themselves.

One eyed Jack · 09-10-2015 10:29AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I do appreciate that, but it is already known that she committed suicide. They are reporting on her removal and omitting the fact, reporting instead that her death was sudden.

We need to talk about these things constructively, not sweep them under the carpet.

Maybe an incorrect choice of words, but there is campaign for people to talk about and not be ashamed of their feelings.

From my reading of that article, as you say, we are already aware that this woman died by suicide, and rather than use that tragedy in a public campaign, they are being considerate of her family and friends and trying to be respectful.

I don't think there was meant to be any intentional "cover up" of the way in which this woman died.

Captain Chaos · 09-10-2015 10:31AM

secondattempt wrote: »

A reason to live? Your life is so bad and has no meaning but the one bit of meaning you can give it is to spare others pain and by not committing suicide help stop the knock on of other people killing themselves.

It's basically guilt tripping a depressed person into living. If you want to be gone you won't care anyway as your escaping from it all, the reason to make others not go through hardship and grief is a persons sloe reason to exist is not enough in that case.

One eyed Jack · 09-10-2015 10:32AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, that kid from Tralee that died of cancer last year was a prime example of this. Not responsible, because he was a child and dying, however I think those who put him in the spot light and allowed what he said to be broadcast over and over was extremely irresponsible. He didn't understand what it was like to be depressed and suicidal, just as others don't understand what it is like to have terminal cancer.

He didn't share your understanding of depression and suicide, that's a very different thing from what you're suggesting.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 09-10-2015 10:33AM

secondattempt wrote: »

A reason to live? Your life is so bad and has no meaning but the one bit of meaning you can give it is to spare others pain and by not committing suicide help stop the knock on of other people killing themselves.

I don't think when someone tells a suicidal person they're being selfish and they have so much to live for (so as you don't make other people sad for example) that a lightbulb lights over their thoughts and they think "silly me, they'd be better off with me here".
Chances are, they've gone through a million and one reasons why people would be better off without them, and yeah people will be let down if you die, but they're going to be let down if you don't die too.
They shouldn't be forced into trying to keep other people's feelings intact when they themselves are hanging on by a thread.

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 10:35AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

He didn't share your understanding of depression and suicide, that's a very different thing from what you're suggesting.

Being upset about the fact that you have a terminal illness does not make a person depressed.

Penny Tration · 09-10-2015 10:36AM

secondattempt wrote: »

A reason to live? Your life is so bad and has no meaning but the one bit of meaning you can give it is to spare others pain and by not committing suicide help stop the knock on of other people killing themselves.

That doesn't work. What the depressed person will think is that those friends and family will be happier without them. Say to them about how much they'll hurt their loved ones and they'll tell themselves that the loved ones will be happier in the long run. Then any little row with one of those loved ones will cement the idea of them being better without the person in the suicidal person's mind.

Guilt tripping suicidal people does not work because someone that depressed cannot think logically and rationally.

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 10:39AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

From my reading of that article, as you say, we are already aware that this woman died by suicide, and rather than use that tragedy in a public campaign, they are being considerate of her family and friends and trying to be respectful.

I don't think there was meant to be any intentional "cover up" of the way in which this woman died.

I don't think it's a cover up (which at this stage, would be impossible). It's deliberate omission. What is disrespectful about mentioning suicide as opposed to any other cause of death?

I have been to a few church funerals of those who have died by suicide. It was the same situation, omitting any elusion towards how the person died for fear that they wouldn't be allowed to observe the Catholic traditions. Could this be the reason for reporting in this way? Now offence meant to anybody, just wondering if this plays a part.

seamus · 09-10-2015 10:42AM

secondattempt wrote: »

A reason to live? Your life is so bad and has no meaning but the one bit of meaning you can give it is to spare others pain and by not committing suicide help stop the knock on of other people killing themselves.

Someone who is suicidal is not rational.
They feel like they're worthless, useless and an embarrassment and a burden to their friends and family.
By telling them that their suicide will cause pain and misery, you're actually confirming all the things that they think about themselves. "On top of everything, I'm going to cause misery and suffering to my family. I'm so pathetic. They'll be better off with me gone."

Like a mother trying to get a child to lose weight by pointing out to them how fat they've gotten, this is one of those things where the action which seems like an obvious solution, in fact has the exact opposite effect.

Telling a suicidal person that their suicide will cause pain and misery will only push them closer to the edge.

OneOfThem · 09-10-2015 10:47AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

He didn't share your understanding of depression and suicide, that's a very different thing from what you're suggesting.

And my personal understanding of cancer might be that if we all wish really really hard and click our heels together three times it'll go away. Never had cancer, no personal experience with it whatsoever really, never read a thing about it, never spoken to anyone informed or knowledgeable about it, but that's my personal understanding. I shouldn't be paraded in the media and given a platform to deliver my message. It's at absolutely best just taking up space someone with the slightest clue of what they're talking about could use. The whole thing was surreal.

One eyed Jack · 09-10-2015 10:51AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I don't think it's a cover up (which at this stage, would be impossible). It's deliberate omission. What is disrespectful about mentioning suicide as opposed to any other cause of death?

I have been to a few church funerals of those who have died by suicide. It was the same situation, omitting any elusion towards how the person died for fear that they wouldn't be allowed to observe the Catholic traditions. Could this be the reason for reporting in this way? Now offence meant to anybody, just wondering if this plays a part.

I don't think it's anything to do with religious traditions or any of the rest of it. I think it's more to do with the fact that her family and friends will be questioning themselves since her death and feeling guilty in wondering was there anything they could have done to prevent her from taking her own life. I think the point is that nobody wants to burden grieving family and friends with that guilt either.

I think it's worth mentioning too that depression and suicide aren't always interlinked, and that a person can be suicidal without ever experiencing depression, or vice versa, and while yes, I can see how some people would say it is selfish, and it is unfair to burden a person experiencing depression or contemplating suicide with the thoughts of those people in their lives who depend upon them, it can also, in certain cases, and in a very individual way, cause that person to think twice before they choose to take their own lives.

The stigma and societal taboo surrounding suicide is a double-edged sword in that in the same way as it can have a person feel shame in taking their own life, the same shame can also prevent them from choosing to take their own life. It's a very individual and personal thing, and that's what makes the subject so difficult to talk about openly.

mahoganygas · 09-10-2015 10:58AM

For many years suicide was a seen as a sin in this country.

The church promoted this ridiculous rhetoric, insisting that somebody who commits suicide will not go to heaven.

People with depression or suicidal thoughts were afraid to talk about their feelings.
Families who were touched by suicide were ashamed in their own communities.

I believe this is why Irish people are reluctant to talk about mental health, even today. I also believe this goes some way in explaining the high number of suicides in rural Ireland.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 09-10-2015 10:58AM

Well he had more of a "reason" to be depressed than most people

osarusan · 09-10-2015 11:00AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well he had more of a "reason" to be depressed than most people

Are you talking about Donal Walsh?

That was his opinion anyway - he understandably felt that nobody had it as bad as him and he wasn't depressed, so why should they be?

It's basically the most fundamental misrepresentation of depression imaginable, along the lines of "sure what does he have to be depressed about?"

EDIT: edit to add, he was just a young man in a tragic situation of his own, but he shouldn't really have been given the media presence he was to speak on depression.

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 11:01AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think it's anything to do with religious traditions or any of the rest of it. I think it's more to do with the fact that her family and friends will be questioning themselves since her death and feeling guilty in wondering was there anything they could have done to prevent her from taking her own life. I think the point is that nobody wants to burden grieving family and friends with that guilt either.

This is my point. There is nothing that they could have done, absolutely nothing, and they should continuously be VOCALLY reassured of this by society rather than be left with their thoughts.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think it's worth mentioning too that depression and suicide aren't always interlinked, and that a person can be suicidal without ever experiencing depression, or vice versa, and while yes, I can see how some people would say it is selfish, and it is unfair to burden a person experiencing depression or contemplating suicide with the thoughts of those people in their lives who depend upon them, it can also, in certain cases, and in a very individual way, cause that person to think twice before they choose to take their own lives.

Depression is an illness like any other, and the severity can equal that of any acute or chronic physical illness. I think, and research agrees, that tough love is not the best way to approach depression and suicide.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The stigma and societal taboo surrounding suicide is a double-edged sword in that in the same way as it can have a person feel shame in taking their own life, the same shame can also prevent them from choosing to take their own life. It's a very individual and personal thing, and that's what makes the subject so difficult to talk about openly.

Shame and suicide do not belong in the same sentences together. A person may have no control whatsoever over their thoughts and this is often the case with suicide. I don't think it should be viewed differently from the outcome of terminal cancer.

Penny Tration · 09-10-2015 11:03AM

osarusan wrote: »

Are you talking about Donal Walsh?

That was his opinion anyway - that nobody had it as bad as him and he wasn't depressed, so why should they be?

It's basically the most fundamental misrepresentation of depression imaginable, along the lines of "sure what does he have to be depressed about?"

very harshly worded but I agree.

The poor kid was just that - a kid. A kid with little understanding of the intricacies of depression and mental illness, who was shoved in our faces as a voice of reason by the media. And tbh I think his view on suicide being publicised did more harm than good.

His heart was in the right place, but he was a misguided kid and aren't most of us misguided at that age?

KomradeBishop · 09-10-2015 11:28AM

For all the good reasons for not reporting suicide - that it increases the rate of suicide high among them - the one problem with it, is that if you don't talk about suicide and the societal problems that lead to it, those societal problems will never be fixed.

I know the reasons vary widely, on a case-by-case basis, but the point still stands: If it's not talked about, public awareness of the problems that lead to suicide, will not grow fast enough to resolve the problems.

None of that changes though, the fact that reporting it more, leads to more suicide.

Also, suicide does not automatically mean irrational, neither can suicidal peoples thoughts/mindsets be stereotyped based on depression. Suicide due to a crippling and painful physical illness for instance - and the severely reduced quality of life caused by that - is perfectly rational and justifiable.

In a similar vein, mental health issues that lead to a debilitatingly poor quality of life or otherwise cause constant pain, can be comparable - except a lot of issues like this can be treated, but many of these issues are never a public health priority - so this is a bit of a grey area, where it's not easy to say how irrational, a persons feeling of hopelessness (leading to suicide) may be ('maybe' they will get adequate treatment in the future, if some hypothetical government un-fúcks mental health services, or perhaps more likely, services will stay in a mismanaged state for many more decades...).

If people rarely talk about the latter, it's highly unlikely to ever change though - much of the last decade has been the time, due to the economy, when well funded mental health services are most needed, but when they are most unlikely to be available (again due to the economy) - two sides of the same issue, that have definitely led to an increase in suicides, while simultaneously pulling away support for people with mental health issues.

One eyed Jack · 09-10-2015 11:31AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

This is my point. There is nothing that they could have done, absolutely nothing, and they should continuously be VOCALLY reassured of this by society rather than be left with their thoughts.

I know where you're coming from, and that sounds logical and all, but it's of very little comfort to those who are grieving the loss of a loved one, in my experience at least.

Depression is an illness like any other, and the severity can equal that of any acute or chronic physical illness. I think, and research agrees, that tough love is not the best way to approach depression and suicide.

I can't actually agree that depression is an illness like any other. It really isn't and it shouldn't be viewed in those terms IMO, because that's where you get someone with a physiological illness such as cancer, equating depression with cancer. One is a physical illness, one is a mental illness, and it's much easier to diagnose and treat a physical ailment or illness than it is to diagnose and treat a mental illness. Certainly I agree that research has shown that the 'tough love' approach can have a negative effect on a person's mentality when they are already experiencing depression, but, and it's a big but, when it comes down to treating people at an individual level, the issues are far more complex than a 'one size should fit all' approach, which is why I don't advocate either the 'tough love' approach, nor the approach that suggests that a person choosing to take their own life should become as socially acceptable in conversation as cancer for example. There are distinctive multiple factors that we can't afford to ignore between mental illness and physical illness.

Shame and suicide do not belong in the same sentences together. A person may have no control whatsoever over their thoughts and this is often the case with suicide. I don't think it should be viewed differently from the outcome of terminal cancer.

It's often the case with depression, certainly, but I would view suicide as distinct from depression - as a person can learn to control their suicidal thoughts in the same manner as they control any other impulsive thoughts, but that process can of course be disordered and negatively affected if they are also experiencing depression.

If it isn't viewed differently from the outcome of terminal cancer, that's how you end up with someone with terminal cancer comparing their circumstances to those of a person experiencing depression or suicidal thoughts.

I also think it would be remiss of anyone to assume that a 16 year old doesn't know what they're talking about simply based on their age. 16 year olds don't normally experience terminal cancer either, but they do experience depression and suicidal thoughts, and those were the people who Donal Walsh was hoping to get his message across to. In that same vein, I've met far more adults who have either none, or very little understanding of ill mental health, mental illness, depression or suicide, so I wouldn't immediately write off someone like Donal Walsh simply on the basis of his age, or the fact that I didn't fully agree with his perspective. I'd make an attempt to understand where he was coming from first, before any attempt to criticise his perspective, or what I thought was his lack of perspective. That simply wouldn't be a very logical thing to do if we're talking about helping people to understand people, rather than try to make them feel ashamed when they try to verbalise their thoughts.

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 11:41AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I also think it would be remiss of anyone to assume that a 16 year old doesn't know what they're talking about simply based on their age. 16 year olds don't normally experience terminal cancer either, but they do experience depression and suicidal thoughts, and those were the people who Donal Walsh was hoping to get his message across to. In that same vein, I've met far more adults who have either none, or very little understanding of ill mental health, mental illness, depression or suicide, so I wouldn't immediately write off someone like Donal Walsh simply on the basis of his age, or the fact that I didn't fully agree with his perspective. I'd make an attempt to understand where he was coming from first, before any attempt to criticise his perspective, or what I thought was his lack of perspective. That simply wouldn't be a very logical thing to do if we're talking about helping people to understand people, rather than try to make them feel ashamed when they try to verbalise their thoughts.

I'm not writing Dónal Walsh off on the basis of his age. I'm writing him off because he wasn't in any fit state to comment on suicide. He was a person who had been robbed of both his child and adulthood, and was angry that he wanted to live and, as he saw it, others were selfishly throwing away what he would have given anything to have. He was scared, angry and sad, and he knew very little about the subject he was talking about.

Deathwish4 · 09-10-2015 11:48AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm not writing Dónal Walsh off on the basis of his age. I'm writing him off because he wasn't in any fit state to comment on suicide. He was a person who had been robbed of both his child and adulthood, and was angry that he wanted to live and, as he saw it, others were selfishly throwing away what he would have given anything to have. He was scared, angry and sad, and he knew very little about the subject he was talking about.

I think his message was more around young people getting the support and help they needed if they felt a certain way.

I can't dig up the stats now, but i'm fairly sure his work had a very positive impact on the Suicide rate in the Cork/Kerry region.

One eyed Jack · 09-10-2015 11:52AM

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm not writing Dónal Walsh off on the basis of his age. I'm writing him off because he wasn't in any fit state to comment on suicide. He was a person who had been robbed of both his child and adulthood, and was angry that he wanted to live and, as he saw it, others were selfishly throwing away what he would have given anything to have. He was scared, angry and sad, and he knew very little about the subject he was talking about.

Our perspectives differ, but all I can say is that if you are going to write people off like that, on the basis that their perspective differs from your own. You really don't know what state he was in to be able to comment on suicide, but given that he was a person, just as you are, just as any of us are, his opinion on suicide should be acknowledged just as you would like your opinion acknowledged, and if you aren't prepared to acknowledge a person's opinion on suicide on the basis that it differs from your own, then you can expect that people will stay silent on the issue and will not talk about it in society, for fear that they will be told they don't know what they're talking about or that they will be told they know very little about the subject they're talking about. That's exactly where the feelings of being scared, angry and sad come from - from being shamed into silence and left feeling isolated with their own thoughts.

09-10-2015 12:01PM

seamus wrote: »

Someone who is suicidal is not rational.

In your opinion.

At this stage the "taboo" status of talking about suicide is pretty much gone. Even without a high profile case there'll be a thread on here every few weeks, I'll see some people running/swimming/shutting up and getting sponsored for some charity, there's billboards, bus shelter ads, posters in college, ads online, on TV and so on. It's at the same level as "raising awareness" about breast cancer at this stage.

Also when there is a high profile case the family's wishes should be respected. If they don't call it suicide or whatever then quite frankly **** you, **** me and **** everyone else. They've enough to worry about without some amateur sociologists getting on their case. There's a difference between some people not wishing to talk about something and that thing being "taboo".

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 12:02PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Our perspectives differ, but all I can say is that if you are going to write people off like that, on the basis that their perspective differs from your own. You really don't know what state he was in to be able to comment on suicide, but given that he was a person, just as you are, just as any of us are, his opinion on suicide should be acknowledged just as you would like your opinion acknowledged, and if you aren't prepared to acknowledge a person's opinion on suicide on the basis that it differs from your own, then you can expect that people will stay silent on the issue and will not talk about it in society, for fear that they will be told they don't know what they're talking about or that they will be told they know very little about the subject they're talking about. That's exactly where the feelings of being scared, angry and sad come from - from being shamed into silence and left feeling isolated with their own thoughts.

He can have his opinion, I'm not taking that from him and I have no intention of rising to your attack because my opinion differs from yours- my opinion is based on facts, that shame does not prevent suicide. You can keep talking about individual cases all you like but on the whole this does not work. I'm saying that he shouldn't have been used as a poster child for suicide prevention. There were people using him as a puppet because his situation was just too sad to ignore, and he shouldn't have been used that way. And fwiw, I'm guessing his fear, anger and sadness stemmed from the fact that he was faced with his own mortality at such a young age. Nobody was shaming the poor thing for having cancer

denhaagenite · 09-10-2015 12:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

In your opinion.

At this stage the "taboo" status of talking about suicide is pretty much gone. Even without a high profile case there'll be a thread on here every few weeks, I'll see some people running/swimming/shutting up and getting sponsored for some charity, there's billboards, bus shelter ads, posters in college, ads online, on TV and so on. It's at the same level as "raising awareness" about breast cancer at this stage.

Also when there is a high profile case the family's wishes should be respected. If they don't call it suicide or whatever then quite frankly **** you, **** me and **** everyone else. They've enough to worry about without some amateur sociologists getting on their case. There's a difference between some people not wishing to talk about something and that thing being "taboo".

I agree with you on the whole but the suicide was widely reported, even in the syndicated articles that were on Breaking News. It's only when the story returns to Ireland that it becomes a "sudden death" and not a "suicide".

There's no taboo when talking about suicide as a hypothetical issue. It's when it's real, when a real person, real families are involoved. THAT'S when it becomes taboo.

09-10-2015 12:17PM

Read here to get more information on why suicide is reported in the media the way in which it is.

It's not to make it taboo - not in the slightest.

http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/samaritans-work-ireland/media-guidelines-ireland

Taboo status of suicide

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