Brendan Rodgers sacked.

the incredible pudding · 06-10-2015 12:27AM

chicorytip wrote: »

Ottmar Hitzfeld's successful spell as manager, including a Champions League win in 1997, was far more praiseworthy.

It probably is more praise worthy but that shouldn't diminish Klopp's achivement with them. Dortmund were in an awful state before Klopp took over though, they almost got relegated and he came in and completely turned them around.

Billy86 · 06-10-2015 01:03AM

Well having got home and had the chance to read up further on this (like I said, I'm in Toronto where football coverage is minimal at best, and only caught wind of it this morning while in work

Dirty Dingus McGee · 06-10-2015 04:36AM

chicorytip wrote: »

Klopp's achievements ought to be put in perspective.The Bundesliga is a far weaker league than the Premiership - a two horse race, in effect. Ottmar Hitzfeld's successful spell as manager, including a Champions League win in 1997, was far more praiseworthy.

In Klopps first year as Dortmund manager Wolfsburg won the Bundesliga.

3 teams have won the premier league in the last 10 years.The EPL isn't very competitive at all.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 06-10-2015 04:43AM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You are missing my point. If Chelsea are poor this year, another mega club will be good. If United do well next year, for example, they have to hope that City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Pool to a lesser extent are worse. In the Bundesliga, if you are having a good season, you have to hope Bayern, and to a lesser extent Dortmund, are off their game.

There are double the number of teams who have the potential and resources to be excellent in any given year in the PL relative to the Bundesliga. This is inarguable tbh. And I agree, Bayern are far etter than all teams in the PL right now.

If that's the case then surely someone outside of Man City Chelsea, and Man Utd should have won the EPL in the last 10 years?

The weaker the best team in a league is the more potential for other teams to win it. Wolfsburg finished second in the Bundesliga last year.If Bayern Munich weren't so brilliant they probably would have won the league but it's extremely difficult to win when the best team is so good.

Caovyn Lineah · 06-10-2015 06:12AM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Is changing your opinion in the space of a year and a half flip flopping? Because that was the original question he asked me

It was obvious after bringing Van Gaal up what he was angling for, it would have been better if he actually caught me out as you say and I denied ever wanting Klopp over Van Gaal but you'll see I didn't

You blatantly did say you wanted Klopp over Van Gaal.

Originally Posted by :
Rayne Wooney 15:40 21-04-2014
Yeah but if there is even a sniff of getting someone like Klopp LVG isn't going to be first choice for me

bucketybuck · 06-10-2015 07:11AM

the incredible pudding wrote: »

Dortmund were in an awful state before Klopp took over though, they almost got relegated and he came in and completely turned them around.

And then almost got them relegated again.

GLaDOS · 06-10-2015 07:16AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

And then almost got them relegated again.

They finished 7th last season, fairly comfortably clear of relegation.

Iused2likebusts · 06-10-2015 07:16AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

And then almost got them relegated again.

They finished 7th

Caovyn Lineah · 06-10-2015 07:16AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

And then almost got them relegated again.

That's not true.

ERG89 · 06-10-2015 07:32AM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You are missing my point. If Chelsea are poor this year, another mega club will be good. If United do well next year, for example, they have to hope that City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Pool to a lesser extent are worse. In the Bundesliga, if you are having a good season, you have to hope Bayern, and to a lesser extent Dortmund, are off their game.

There are double the number of teams who have the potential and resources to be excellent in any given year in the PL relative to the Bundesliga. This is inarguable tbh. And I agree, Bayern are far etter than all teams in the PL right now.

Wolfsburg, Bremen and Stuttgart all won the Bundesliga since 2004 so that is 5 winners in 11 years. With the exception of Bayern Munich all without massive cash injections needed to be competitive like City and Chelsea had.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 07:41AM

Hyperbole on both sides - the reality is Klopp is probably the best manager in his category.

He's not yet on the level of men like Guardiola, Mourinho, Benitez, Ancelotti.

If he performs as well as he has done at Dortmund, at Pool, then he will rightly be elevated to that level. What does he need to do to get there?

Simply. Win the league with Liverpool. Champions League won't matter, FA Cup won't matter, Second place in the league (we know now) won't matter.

Can he do that inside 3 years? Doubtful, in my opinion. He'll need more things to go right for him than wrong.

It's true that there are more "elite" teams in the EPL than there are in Germany for him to overcome. It's true that if last season's Champions have a bad day, then there is at least two other clubs able to just step into the place of them (this season that's Arsenal and City imo - then there's United, there's ALWAYS united unless they have another Moyes, which they won't, they've too much money), and he needs to fashion a team to compete up there, year-on-year, otherwise what happened with Suarez and Sterling will continue to happen. Young potential comes to fruitition then looks up and sees those clubs ahead of Pool, and wants more - either in other countries or in the EPL.

He has the pedigree to suggest that he can possibly make that happen, but it will require time. He's not a fast-fix sticking plaster. There'll be more downs than ups before he gets to where he needs to be.

Knex* · 06-10-2015 07:44AM

While I agree with a lot of your post, if Klopp somehow won the CL with Liverpool, he would instantly go to Benitez's level in the eyes of most, I would imagine.

niallo27 · 06-10-2015 07:45AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Hyperbole on both sides - the reality is Klopp is probably the best manager in his category.

He's not yet on the level of men like Guardiola, Mourinho, Benitez, Ancelotti.

If he performs as well as he has done at Dortmund, at Pool, then he will rightly be elevated to that level. What does he need to do to get there?

Simply. Win the league with Liverpool. Champions League won't matter, FA Cup won't matter, Second place in the league (we know now) won't matter.

Can he do that inside 3 years? Doubtful, in my opinion. He'll need more things to go right for him than wrong.

It's true that there are more "elite" teams in the EPL than there are in Germany for him to overcome. It's true that if last season's Champions have a bad day, then there is at least two other clubs able to just step into the place of them (this season that's Arsenal and City imo - then there's United, there's ALWAYS united unless they have another Moyes, which they won't, they've too much money), and he needs to fashion a team to compete up there, year-on-year, otherwise what happened with Suarez and Sterling will continue to happen. Young potential comes to fruitition then looks up and sees those clubs ahead of Pool, and wants more - either in other countries or in the EPL.

He has the pedigree to suggest that he can possibly make that happen, but it will require time. He's not a fast-fix sticking plaster. There'll be more downs than ups before he gets to where he needs to be.

Liverpool fans wont expect him to win the league in 3 years though, we just want a bit of consistency and a decent shot at top 4 and build from there.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 07:47AM

ERG89 wrote: »

Wolfsburg, Bremen and Stuttgart all won the Bundesliga since 2004 so that is 5 winners in 11 years. With the exception of Bayern Munich all without massive cash injections needed to be competitive like City and Chelsea had.

This is the point he's making imo - it's easier to do well in Germany if Bayern aren't performing than to do well in England if one major club is not performing - because there is no equivalent in Germany - there is Bayern at the top level, and a group of clubs all operating a level or two below them - when Bayern flop it's up to one of them to be ready to make the move. They need to be at a certain stage of their cycle, some of it is luck, and some of it (as in Dortmund's case) is down to being able to hang on to the players, to get them or resist Bayern, for longer than would be normal. That's mostly down to the manager and senior players if Gerrard is to be believed.

As we are seeing in England right now, Chelsea are having a nightmare, but the "usual" other clubs are still at the top of the table, then there's a group below that, of which Liverpool are a part.

It's extremely hard to

a. break into that elite group
b. stay there long term to the detriment of the "usual" clubs

As Liverpool are finding out, 2nd place finish 2 seasons ago, then drop back out. It happened to Spurs. It happened to Everton.

Only really City have displaced a team in the top tier, and that's down to money, money, money - which Liverpool don't have.

The team they displaced IS Liverpool.

ERG89 · 06-10-2015 07:48AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Hyperbole on both sides - the reality is Klopp is probably the best manager in his category.

He's not yet on the level of men like Guardiola, Mourinho, Benitez, Ancelotti.

If he performs as well as he has done at Dortmund, at Pool, then he will rightly be elevated to that level. What does he need to do to get there?

Simply. Win the league with Liverpool. Champions League won't matter, FA Cup won't matter, Second place in the league (we know now) won't matter.

Can he do that inside 3 years? Doubtful, in my opinion. He'll need more things to go right for him than wrong.

I think getting in the top 4 & staying there (not dropping to 7th again) is his objective at the moment for these owners. If Rodgers was in the CL group stage, won a few cups and on target for a top 4 finish he would not have been asked to go so the whole league or bust thing is well erm

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 07:51AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Liverpool fans wont expect him to win the league in 3 years though, we just want a bit of consistency and a decent shot at top 4 and build from there.

What is a "decent shot" at top 4 though?

Eventually finishing fifth? What if the EPL loses the 4th CL spot? What then, because if that happened "top 4" suddenly becomes "top 3", and probably an impossible task in the medium term.

But yeah, define a "decent shot" at Top 4, because it's rather vague and arbitrary.

Liam McPoyle · 06-10-2015 07:53AM

niallo27 wrote: »

Liverpool fans wont expect him to win the league in 3 years though, we just want a bit of consistency and a decent shot at top 4 and build from there.

So if Klopp takes over, and come this time 3 years hasn't challenged for the title and doesn't look like he will, you would be happy?

That's very surprising tbh, that's a Spurs (I mean no disrespect to them) mentality.

If Klopp, should he be appointed, is given then time and money BR got then the minimum I'd expect if i was a lfc fan is a genuine tilt at the title by year 3.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 07:55AM

ERG89 wrote: »

I think getting in the top 4 & staying there (not dropping to 7th again) is his objective at the moment for these owners. If Rodgers was in the CL group stage, won a few cups and on target for a top 4 finish he would not have been asked to go so the whole league or bust thing is well erm

OK cool, if we accept for a minute a league win isn't an objective that most Pool fans are striving for (I don't believe that though), what has Klopp done to suggest that he can get a club into the CL places, and, crucially, stay there?

Brendan Rodgers got Pool into the CL spot, then dropped to 7th.

Kloppt got Dortmund to the CL spot, then dropped to 7th. Fair enough, he maintained the CL spot for longer than a season, but didn't "stay there".

Eventually the manager can only do so much to keep the players who get the team to that position, and they'll be drawn by the clubs who are regularly in those positions, either in England, or elsewhere.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 07:57AM

Business Cat wrote: »

If Klopp, should he be appointed, is given then time and money BR got then the minimum I'd expect if i was a lfc fan is a genuine tilt at the title by year 3.

Except that's not the reality - Rodgers had a genuine tilt at the title and is out.

Knex* · 06-10-2015 07:57AM

I don't think flirting with 4th - 6th place will be enough for FSG now, being honest. Rodgers would consistently have you around the lower end of that mark I feel, so I think if Klopp does come in, that's a real statement of intent from the owners.

They will want him pushing for titles and silverware, even if its not realistic due to the strength of the other sides in England. That won't be an excuse to them now, I feel.

If Klopp came 5th this year, and say 5th or 6th again next, I very much think they'd be out of a job if no silverware found its way into Anfield in the meantime. Even then, he could well get the Kenny treatment. FSG don't really adhere to sentiment.

So yeah, I very much think FSG going for Klopp is a sign that they are expecting him to deliver.

ERG89 · 06-10-2015 07:59AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

OK cool, if we accept for a minute a league win isn't an objective that most Pool fans are striving for (I don't believe that though), what has Klopp done to suggest that he can get a club into the CL places, and, crucially, stay there?

Brendan Rodgers got Pool into the CL spot, then dropped to 7th.

Kloppt got Dortmund to the CL spot, then dropped to 7th. Fair enough, he maintained the CL spot for longer than a season, but didn't "stay there".

Eventually the manager can only do so much to keep the players who get the team to that position, and they'll be drawn by the clubs who are regularly in those positions, either in England, or elsewhere.

Long term the objective is the leage LONG TERM. His objective now IF he arrives is to steady the ship, try secure a CL spot. Get money in, the profile of the club up and hopefully bring in better players as a result of that and then challenge for the league. NOBODY is saying win the league there lickidy split Jurgen or Fúck off so your post i'm afraid is from the moon. My stay there comment was about a poster saying 2nd wasn't enough for Rodgers as really he finished there once and 7th every other season

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

This is the point he's making imo - it's easier to do well in Germany if Bayern aren't performing than to do well in England if one major club is not performing - because there is no equivalent in Germany - there is Bayern at the top level, and a group of clubs all operating a level or two below them - when Bayern flop it's up to one of them to be ready to make the move. They need to be at a certain stage of their cycle, some of it is luck, and some of it (as in Dortmund's case) is down to being able to hang on to the players, to get them or resist Bayern, for longer than would be normal. That's mostly down to the manager and senior players if Gerrard is to be believed.

As we are seeing in England right now, Chelsea are having a nightmare, but the "usual" other clubs are still at the top of the table, then there's a group below that, of which Liverpool are a part.

It's extremely hard to

a. break into that elite group
b. stay there long term to the detriment of the "usual" clubs

As Liverpool are finding out, 2nd place finish 2 seasons ago, then drop back out. It happened to Spurs. It happened to Everton.

Only really City have displaced a team in the top tier, and that's down to money, money, money - which Liverpool don't have.

The team they displaced IS Liverpool.

Pretty sure Bayern were in a CL final one of the seasons Dortmund won the league so they must have "underperformed" that year so :rolleyes:
Can you just say United were bad any year Chelsea or Arsenal won it so since they have won the majority of leagues since the PL was renamed

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 08:00AM

I don't think it's beyond him, but it's a much harder task than the one in Germany.

But unless FSG back up that ambition with spending then he's on a hiding to nothing. Consistently spending the 5th highest on wages is going to consistently get you an average of a 5th place finish - that may include a season in second and a season in seventh though.

As it already has done.

niallo27 · 06-10-2015 08:01AM

Business Cat wrote: »

So if Klopp takes over, and come this time 3 years hasn't challenged for the title and doesn't look like he will, you would be happy?

That's very surprising tbh, that's a Spurs (I mean no disrespect to them) mentality.

If Klopp, should he be appointed, is given then time and money BR got then the minimum I'd expect if i was a lfc fan is a genuine tilt at the title by year 3.

Well if we say we want to win a title we are called deluded and living in the past. With all the money in the premier league i know how incredibly hard it would be to win a title.

niallo27 · 06-10-2015 08:03AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

What is a "decent shot" at top 4 though?

Eventually finishing fifth? What if the EPL loses the 4th CL spot? What then, because if that happened "top 4" suddenly becomes "top 3", and probably an impossible task in the medium term.

But yeah, define a "decent shot" at Top 4, because it's rather vague and arbitrary.

Challenging for top 4 and making the breakthrough next season or the third season. If he has liverpool back in the champions league within 3 years i will happy.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 08:03AM

ERG89 wrote: »

Can you just say United were bad any year Chelsea or Arsenal won it so since they have won the majority of leagues since the PL was renamed

Nope, my clearly stated position is that I believe United, Arsenal, City and Chelsea are all operating on a similar level to what Bayern are in Germany.

Forget Europe for a minute, it's irrelevant to this discussion really.

Then you've got Spus and Pool below them - relying on one of those sides having a bad year so they can claim the 4th spot. But they can't claim it on an on-going basis, because those clubs have the wherewithal to bounce straight back - look at the difference between United dropping out of the top 4 and Liverpool dropping from 2nd.

United straight back in, Pool floundering.

Liam McPoyle · 06-10-2015 08:11AM

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Except that's not the reality - Rodgers had a genuine tilt at the title and is out.

BR got lucky in the players he had for 13/14, despite what some people think I believe that if Suarez was not in that team they wouldn't have come close to 2nd.

The following season they went backwards and this season to date backwards further still.

It was also the performances or lack there of that were the issue for the last 18 months, hapless for the most part. If they had have scraped 4th like we did last year he would still be in a job today IMO.

K-9 · 06-10-2015 08:14AM

ERG89 wrote: »

I think getting in the top 4 & staying there (not dropping to 7th again) is his objective at the moment for these owners. If Rodgers was in the CL group stage, won a few cups and on target for a top 4 finish he would not have been asked to go so the whole league or bust thing is well erm

Consistency which he had at Dortmund is what Liverpool want now.

Doubt you'll get many expecting him to win the league, 13/14 was very much an aberration. Anything close to Rafa and he'll have done an excellent job, winning a league would be exceptional given the disadvantages Liverpool are at.

Achievements at Dortmund or the closest I can think of. Atletico would still fall short of Liverpool winning a league because well. there are 4 bigger financial giants to compete with.

Basically, regular CL football would be Liverpool punching above their weight, a league title would be an incredible achievement in the modern business of football.

K-9 · 06-10-2015 08:19AM

Business Cat wrote: »

BR got lucky in the players he had for 13/14, despite what some people think I believe that if Suarez was not in that team they wouldn't have come close to 2nd.

The following season they went backwards and this season to date backwards further still.

It was also the performances or lack there of that were the issue for the last 18 months, hapless for the most part. If they had have scraped 4th like we did last year he would still be in a job today IMO.

Staying in the CL is the target.

Lovely Bloke · 06-10-2015 08:21AM

Consistency that eventually dried up because it's just not sustainable (or more worryingly, he got bored) in that kind of environment.

MD1990 · 06-10-2015 08:24AM

Man Utd fans badly wanted Klopp in 2013. Now he is set to be Liverpool manager he isn't that great lol.

Brendan Rodgers sacked.

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