Why are men with their tops off ok but women with their tops off not ok

Potatoeman · 01-10-2015 10:28AM

Gbear wrote: »

Were tits sexualised even back to the dawn of those religions or civilisations?
Why was that the case?
Is it just an extension of the idea that any element of attractiveness, even if it doesn't provide much useful information about the prospective mate, would be locked down to protect the woman's husband (who wants to protect his genetic legacy by ensuring fidelity) or father (being the guardian in charge of ensuring his genes went to a "good home").

It would also be to protect her. There was no social protection back then so it was not just for men.

allibastor · 01-10-2015 10:28AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

You'd probably already be dead.

Yeah, probably.

Thrown from that cliff in Sparta and all.

01-10-2015 10:29AM

orubiru wrote: »

That's fair enough but "our culture" did not just appear from nowhere and it does not exist in a vacuum.

Then you will likely share in my joy to discover that I did not suggest either of those things

One can however comment on current culture without requiring reference to how it came about.

It is all alien to me I have to admit - I never acquired any issue with nudity growing up. Quite the opposite in fact as the friends I had during my 11 - 16 period - and the friends I have now from age 26 to present day - were quite nudity liberal.

I hung around with guys and girls who thought nothing of stripping off and changing in front of me - school uniforms into something else while going out somewhere - swimming naked - whatever - and I not only thought nothing of it - I thought SO LITTLE of it I was relatively old before I even copped how many people have issues with nudity.

So when anyone gets uppity about "Oh no we saw a penis" or "Oh dear god a child might see a grown adult naked" - I simply can not get myself into the head space of what the issue even is.

So when you say something like "I guess the better question would be "should society see women's breasts as sexual or not" I would not only entirely agree with you - but I go even further. Mere nudity itself as a whole - is it really all that sexual? It certainly is not for me - it has to be nudity AND context for me to make it sexual - so it is just one of those many areas in life I struggle to get into the head space of the perspectives of others.

orubiru wrote: »

I get the impression that the majority of people, even men, would not feel comfortable at all walking around in public with their top off. So maybe seeing someone else do it makes them uncomfortable too? I don't know.

Agreed - but I would add that that is likely complimentary to what I am saying rather than distinct from it. People do not like being judged and I suppose the fact is that if you stand out in such a way - judged you will be. And not even with nudity - I have been in groups of guys who will spot a guy wearing a pink shirt - and will enter into conversations about how high an opinion of himself sexually or masculine he must feel to believe himself capable of "carrying off the look". Though admiteldy less and less as time goes on as more and more men do it. But there certainly were some viciously judgemental and aggressive conversations I have been privvy to merely for a pink shirt.

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, you misunderstand; I suspect many women would not be interested, not because breasts are sexualized, but because, for many, they look a lot better in Wonderbras than out in the open where gravity can have its cruel way.

Ah indeed I see your point - certainly agree with that - and it does fit in well with my original point too - linking it back to the effects of these things being sexualised.

The Corinthian · 01-10-2015 10:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah indeed I see your point - certainly agree with that - and it does fit in well with my original point too - linking it back to the effects of these things being sexualised.

Sorry, but there's nothing sexualised about a pair of breasts that resemble golf balls in socks.

01-10-2015 10:35AM

Please - under no circumstances provide examples of what you mean - I prefer to remain ignorant on this one.

Buona Fortuna · 01-10-2015 10:40AM

Given the choice I prefer women with their tops off to men with their tops off anyday of the week and twice on Saturday.

biko · 01-10-2015 10:44AM

If women on soaps took their tops off I might actually start watching the horrid things.

01-10-2015 10:47AM

Are the sight of them so good - but so rare - that you would feel compelled to engage in such extremes of masochism in order to attain it?

Menas · 01-10-2015 10:49AM

To those of you wishing women would take their tops of before the watershed - I say "Emily Bishop". Picture that.

Buona Fortuna · 01-10-2015 10:51AM

Menas wrote: »

To those of you wishing women would take their tops of before the watershed - I say "Emily Bishop". Picture that.

Depends. Its been a while

OhDearyMe · 01-10-2015 10:52AM

I see a lot of breasts on a fairly regular basis living in a country with hot Summers where people have no qualms about being topless at the public pools. I go topless myself because no one bats an eyelid (or at least do a very good job pretending they're blasé about it!) and I feel I may as well take advantage of the liberating feeling while I can. All ages, shapes and sizes go topless there and not just the young, hot women. It's funny that once I leave that setting, being topless becomes an "issue".

razorblunt · 01-10-2015 10:58AM

Why are soaps allowed on tv at all at all?

The OH has finally given up on Eastenders and it's constant mopey nature, I think the drug dealer death in Corrie has her barely hanging on too.

gramar · 01-10-2015 11:02AM

razorblunt wrote: »

Why are soaps allowed on tv at all at all?

The OH has finally given up on Eastenders and it's constant mopey nature, I think the drug dealer death in Corrie has her barely hanging on too.

Is that because she's not getting her fix?

01-10-2015 11:10AM

razorblunt wrote: »

Why are soaps allowed on tv at all at all?

My memories of what soaps used to be like - my parents watched some of them too - are one of the main reasons I maintain the status of having no television in our house at all. They simply are not for me - but some people seem to get something from them. I can only imagine what.

NachoBusiness · 01-10-2015 11:39AM

Tbf, I think women are mostly responsible for commodifying their own bodies, especially in western culture. Dressing in ways which slightly expose their breasts, they sexualize them. Same with having a slit running down the side of skirt. That's revealing flesh in a quite deliberately sexual way. Flesh in and of itself is not sexual. Sure women wear a hell of a lot less at a swimming pool and nobody would realistically suggest they were dressing that way as a means of titillating.

I agree that there is no call for any of this to change, for the simple reason that it benefits women. If it was the norm for women to have their breasts exposed, society would be blasé about them and I don't think that is what is wanted. I think that is what lay at the heart of those who were against Page 3, wanting it banned and not at all for the reasons which they had sanctimoniously cited.

Have to say though that I find it quite bizarre that it's socially acceptable for women to dress in a quite explicitly sexually provocative fashion, but yet also at the very same time, it's taboo to condemn them for doing so. Not suggesting they should be condemned, they should be able to do dress how they like, but I think when women dress to elicit a sexual reaction, they should be open to criticism for doing so. If I wore some jeans that were sheer and you could see my penis all night as I walked around, surely I shouldn't be able to play the victim when I'm critiqued for doing so and it's suggested I'm just looking for attention, but I see this happening all the time when women dress that way.

Another thing I find bizarre is how women will wearing revealing clothes and cover themselves then when they are out. Take this morning's photos in the media of Kendall Jenner, where she was wore a dress that exposed her nipples and her underwear, as an example. You can see her holding her purse in front of her panties. Bit late now I'm thinking. URL="http://assets-s3.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/article_photos/226450f835d8e16e12186f7485333a3bb69c55a4.jpg"]Censored version of the photo[/URL. I found some better shots elsewhere though, so all's good.

tonycascarino · 01-10-2015 12:01PM

To add to the OP question. Why do women not get embarrassed going around a beach in a bikini but would get embarrassed if someone saw them in their lingerie?

OhDearyMe · 01-10-2015 12:03PM

In all honesty, not being able to display our bare breasts in public is not that big an issue for most women, I'd say, and I don't see any mainstream protests about it. As someone said before, it probably suits women to have them undercover for a variety of reasons.

The only issue relates to breast-feeding - why is it in other European countries boobs are viewed sexually but nobody looks twice when a woman breast feeds in public? Why is Ireland different?

Kev W · 01-10-2015 12:05PM

OhDearyMe wrote: »

In all honesty, not being able to display our bare breasts in public is not that big an issue for most women, I'd say, and I don't see any mainstream protests about it. As someone said before, it probably suits women to have them undercover for a variety of reasons.

The only issue relates to breast-feeding - why is it in other European countries boobs are viewed sexually but nobody looks twice when a woman breast feeds in public? Why is Ireland different?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TuiHxtEGe9M/UmdjWKpLCaI/AAAAAAAAA4A/G4ie5SRV1qI/s1600/Angry-priest-.png

OhDearyMe · 01-10-2015 12:07PM

@ Kev W: It's accepted in other European countries where the church would still be very much a presence.

01-10-2015 12:13PM

OhDearyMe wrote: »

The only issue relates to breast-feeding - why is it in other European countries boobs are viewed sexually but nobody looks twice when a woman breast feeds in public? Why is Ireland different?

Hard to say. But this story springs to mind:

http://www.thelocal.de/20150708/breastfeeding-in-public-is-natural

And I think it gets repeated in many countries. But my feeling is the majority have no issue with it really - just the usual tiny loud mouth group of people who find offence - and the larger group who love to take offence at that offence

Medusa22 · 01-10-2015 12:15PM

''What do we want?''

''Topless women''

''When do we want them?''

''Now!!''

OhDearyMe · 01-10-2015 12:26PM

That's interesting, TaxAH, I didn't think the Germans of all nations would have a problem with it.

Perhaps you're right about the majority not having an issue with it - I suppose the more it's done, the more it's normalised as well.

Mesrine65 · 01-10-2015 01:31PM

Women with their tops off are OK by me OP

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 01-10-2015 02:32PM

MadsL wrote: »

That's kinda the point of poker...

Think he means a bag of chips, like from a chipper :P

Rezident · 01-10-2015 06:11PM

Not only is women with their tops off, ok, it is beautiful (as long as they can't throw them over their shoulders - saw an olde lady do that once, still scarred).

Notavirus.exe · 01-10-2015 06:15PM

What makes private parts private?

Silverfish · 01-10-2015 08:07PM

Because nipples are like opinions, everyone has them but its only acceptable for men to share theirs in public.

RDM_83 again · 01-10-2015 09:07PM

OhDearyMe wrote: »

I see a lot of breasts on a fairly regular basis living in a country with hot Summers where people have no qualms about being topless at the public pools. I go topless myself because no one bats an eyelid (or at least do a very good job pretending they're blasé about it!) and I feel I may as well take advantage of the liberating feeling while I can. All ages, shapes and sizes go topless there and not just the young, hot women. It's funny that once I leave that setting, being topless becomes an "issue".

While it may not be an issue I don't think breasts are not perceived as sexual in those contexts either, my source is I used to go on holidays as a young teenager to Italy and the Italians I hung around with definitely were copping eyefuls as well.
Though a young male teenager can find a crayon drawing erotic so that might not say much.

About the wider nudity/sexuality thing, there has been hundreds(thousands?) of different cultures many of which developed fairly independently, a minuscule amount don't have any nudity taboo's, they might not be the same taboo's as us but they nearly all have some parts of the body that are covered apart from in ritual or intimate scenarios.
Naturism isn't natural.

OhDearyMe · 02-10-2015 01:19AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

While it may not be an issue I don't think breasts are not perceived as sexual in those contexts either, my source is I used to go on holidays as a young teenager to Italy and the Italians I hung around with definitely were copping eyefuls as well.
Though a young male teenager can find a crayon drawing erotic so that might not say much.

Well that's Italy for you! Or teenagers! :-)

I'm not saying they weren't sexual in that context, just that it wasn't an issue. I mean, people are walking around in bikinis and speedos getting tans to look attractive, so everyone's copping eyefulls of each other, myself included - we're only human after all. Saying that, I have eyes in my head and I do notice the attention I get (even if a man believes he's being subtle) and I notice attention given to other women from men. Hand on heart, there's not half as much gawking and ogling as you'd expect. I suppose it's down to the fact that it's in a context you'd expect and the fact that the boobs on display look decidedly average - more like something you'd see in National Geographic or in a biology book and are not presented in a sexualised manner like they might be in a push up bra on a night out or in sexy lingerie or whatever.

Why are men with their tops off ok but women with their tops off not ok

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