Irish people fail English exam

The King of Moo · 28-09-2015 08:53PM

Calibos wrote: »

Thousands upon thousands of Irish labourers and brickies emigrate to OZ, every town in Ireland notices a large drop in the amount of loud drunken carry on and vandalism after pub closing time, 90% of recent Irish immigrants to OZ fail basic English test.......Correlation?

No, just lazy generalisations and a failure to read the thread. It's far from a basic English test. Have a go at the sample tests posted here, see how you do.

rubadub · 28-09-2015 08:55PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

No, it really is that tough. In reality, one would probably need to have at least Masters' level experience to have a good chance of success without having English-language classes to prepare.

But is his disability not a factor? are they not making any allowance in the test? would a professor of English with cerebral palsy stand a chance?

osarusan · 28-09-2015 08:57PM

IELTS test centres will cater for people with disabilities as much as possible.

The King of Moo · 28-09-2015 08:58PM

rubadub wrote: »

But is his disability not a factor? are they not making any allowance in the test? would a professor of English with cerebral palsy stand a chance?

There's no specific allowance made. There's a vague promise in the official literature to give any assistance possible for the exam in general, but with no specific mention of the speaking section, and it says they ideally need 3 months to prepare any special requirements.

antonymin · 28-09-2015 09:39PM

I wonder what % of Australians would pass the test.

28-09-2015 09:48PM

I would fail most tests on English myself too I have to admit. I quite literally do not know the difference between an adjective - adverb - pro-noun - or - hell that is the only three I can list and I am not sure what any of them are.

I know what a verb is. And I think I am down with noun. But other than that - I have not a clue. The Nozzferrahhtoo did a test on me one night recently when I had been drinking asking me if I knew the difference between "My grandmother never flew" and "My grandmother has never flown" and I had to give up - until he told me the answer.

I can speak the language with a slightly above average proficiency I think - but other than that I am a lost cause. Whereas my linguist girlfriend can spot rules between languages - patterns in speech and structure that allow her to flow between many of them even without speaking a word of her target language. It is amazing to watch. Where I would be sitting there going "No - no - sorry I am not getting any of this - perhaps if you shout it louder again it might sink in" she is putting together "Ok - thats clearly an Article - that word you are saying is door - and your inflection indicates we need to depart through it before you stab us"

Reiver · 28-09-2015 11:31PM

rubadub wrote: »

But is his disability not a factor? are they not making any allowance in the test? would a professor of English with cerebral palsy stand a chance?

People with cerebral palsy can have a surprising variation in how they're afflicted with it. Article doesn't give too much details.

I hope they made some allowance!

Electric Sheep · 29-09-2015 01:13AM

endacl wrote: »

Dey failed it cause nobody learned them to talk proper.

Incorrect use of tenses: I seen it. I done it. Etc.
Getting words mixed up. Synonyms.

Lots of reasons we might fail.

We see this constantly on Boards. Posters who (at least claim to) have graduate degrees posting I seen, he done, should of.

I am not surprised so many fail the English exam.

bnt · 29-09-2015 01:50AM

Some posters are commenting about how they can't name the parts of grammar, or tell an adverb from an adjective, but the IELTS tests aren't like that at all. They're about the practical use of the language in communication, not whether you can point out the pronouns.

The version used for immigration purposes is IELTS General Training, and the difference between that and Academic is explained here. It strikes me as a kind of IQ test: you're expected to have a deep understanding of the use of the language, not memorise bits and pieces.

FloatingVoter · 29-09-2015 02:30AM

Finnegans Wake just failed the test. Shakespeare panicked and started inventing new words. The chancer. And Geoffrey Chaucer simply can't be understood at all.

johnny osbourne · 29-09-2015 02:34AM

****

R.D. aka MR.D · 29-09-2015 05:11AM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

We see this constantly on Boards. Posters who (at least claim to) have graduate degrees posting I seen, he done, should of.

I am not surprised so many fail the English exam.

I'm open to correction but I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is a feature if hiberno-English. I remember my CELTA instructor (who was from the south if England) explaining something about how Irish people use past participles differently . It's unique and a feature of our English.

As has been mentioned in the thread already, there are many different kinds of English. The IELTS academic test focuses on British academic English.

starling · 29-09-2015 05:23AM

AnLonDubh wrote: »

In actual fact the rules of grammar are different in the different countries, as grammar is simply the set of rules a spoken language obeys. Being the same language means that our rules and the vocabulary they act upon are similar enough for high mutual comprehensibility with Americans, the English, e.t.c.

Unfortunately English, unlike other languages like French, German, e.t.c. does not a one dialect fixed as its "standard" version to use in a business context, as a target for learners, e.t.c. Instead we have a nebulous idea of "acceptable good English", with a considerable amount of personal judgement as to what is right or wrong.

Consider say Russian. There is a standard Russian, which you learn as a foreigner and is taught in schools, but it's perfectly acceptable to use your local version socially. Contrast this with English where "do be" is consider a sign of being stupid by people who can't clearly explain why their own speech is correct. The truth is nothing is "correct", just "standardised". It would be much better, I think, if there was a standard version of English.

Do you mean a standard set of grammar rules?

starling · 29-09-2015 05:29AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I'm open to correction but I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is a feature if hiberno-English. I remember my CELTA instructor (who was from the south if England) explaining something about how Irish people use past participles differently . It's unique and a feature of our English.

As has been mentioned in the thread already, there are many different kinds of English. The IELTS academic test focuses on British academic English.

"Should of" isn't really a feature of Hiberno-English; you can see undereducated people from the UK and USA using it all the time. It's just a misunderstanding that comes from hearing "should have" as "should of" IMO

Nichard Dixon · 29-09-2015 05:30AM

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Irish people are failing English exam"?

starling · 29-09-2015 05:38AM

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Irish people are failing English exam"?

"Irish people do be failing English exam"

R.D. aka MR.D · 29-09-2015 06:35AM

starling wrote: »

"Should of" isn't really a feature of Hiberno-English; you can see undereducated people from the UK and USA using it all the time. It's just a misunderstanding that comes from hearing "should have" as "should of" IMO

That's true but I'm a firm believer in the idea that when you make a post online, it's like you're having a conversation. The accuracy of the language used is of less importance than the communication. For example, I'm from Donegal and know when i speak a certain way it is not grammatically correct but it's the way i say it. Same with posts on boards, i might know it's wrong but it 'sounds' more like my voice.

That's obviously just my opinion and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would disagree but I genuinely don't take online posts to be representative of how people would perform in work/academic situations.

starling · 29-09-2015 06:59AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

That's true but I'm a firm believer in the idea that when you make a post online, it's like you're having a conversation. The accuracy of the language used is of less importance than the communication. For example, I'm from Donegal and know when i speak a certain way it is not grammatically correct but it's the way i say it. Same with posts on boards, i might know it's wrong but it 'sounds' more like my voice.

That's obviously just my opinion and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would disagree but I genuinely don't take online posts to be representative of how people would perform in work/academic situations.

I totally agree, most don't use proper grammar all the time but that doesn't mean they couldn't if they had to, or that they are any less intelligent. It's an informal setting, what you're saying is more important than the finer points. (Up to a point, that is; I consider txtspk to be an interesting and useful mode of expression in the appropriate setting but it's too fúcking hard to read in a post).

That's what I was saying, a rigid insistence on correct grammar is awkward in spoken conversations and disrupts the flow so much that it sounds jarring. Speech has its natural rythyms and especially in Hiberno English (I'm biased obvs) it can be almost poetic, and I like that. You're right about how it "sounds" like the person writing.

I recently read a really interesting post by a chungwan who's very intelligent, talking about the different ways that young people and older people use txtspk and such. Younger people (the online generation or whatever) use it with all these very subtle nuances that convey different meanings and effects, completely different from the way that say my mother might use it.

pickarooney · 29-09-2015 07:13AM

Who the **** marks out of 9??

Irish Stones · 29-09-2015 07:35AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Now class - try translate the following into any language whatsoever

"You won't believe what this gobshíte's after been doing" - as said by every irish father in history.

[ITA] Non crederete a quello che questo stupido sta per fare

AngryHippie · 29-09-2015 07:37AM

Its for bonus points for a visa, not for the requirements of the visa itself.

https://www.border.gov.au/Lega/Lega/Form/Immi-FAQs/how-can-i-prove-i-have-competent-english

He didn't have enough points for his visa assessment, he tried IELTS to get a few extras, it fell over.

To be brutally honest, he's not going to get much sympathy for bleating to the press about it either. considering:

To prove that you have competent English you must provide evidence of one of the following:

You hold a valid passport issued by the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, New Zealand or the Republic of Ireland and you are a citizen of that country.

from Immi.gov.au

4 other alternatives are also allowed to prove your language competence.
That's not what he was trying to do.

To get bonus points for English Competence in that exam, study is required. Technical proficiency and Grammar is essential. Diction and spoken English must also be of a very high standard.

The funny part is how many people are getting the wrong end of the stick. I suppose it's proving the point that comprehension of the language isn't exactly a given.

29-09-2015 08:29AM

AngryHippie wrote: »

To prove that you have competent English you must provide evidence of one of the following:

You hold a valid passport issued by the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Canada, New Zealand or the Republic of Ireland and you are a citizen of that country.

- from Immi.gov.au

Interesting. Is it a requirement in Ireland that potential new citizens must speak decent english (or Irish)?

29-09-2015 08:42AM

I teach IELTS and the one for America called the TOEFL.. You need to know how to do the tests so native speakers do it pretty badly with no preparation. IELTS would be fairly ok but the TOEFL would be a nightmare.

If I asked you to do describe the most influential person in your life in 45 seconds with only 15 seconds to think about it, you'd screw it up and ramble all over the shop. No one would naturally hit get the "Introduction + 2 key points supported with explanations or examples" structure. (TOEFL Speaking Task 1)

Or listen to these two people talking about a problem and describe what you hear.. "The man's problem.. His friend suggests.. In my opinion, he should.. The first reason.. I also believe that.." (TOEFL Speaking Task 5)

Take this random graph and write an essay on what it describes.. No chance you'd ever tick all the boxes. Or even think to use the flowery language that the IELTS requires. (IELTS Writing Task 1)

Edit: And do it all while using complex grammar that you might never use normally.

StonyIron · 29-09-2015 10:07AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I teach IELTS and the one for America called the TOEFL.. You need to know how to do the tests so native speakers do it pretty badly with no preparation. IELTS would be fairly ok but the TOEFL would be a nightmare.

If I asked you to do describe the most influential person in your life in 45 seconds with only 15 seconds to think about it, you'd screw it up and ramble all over the shop. No one would naturally hit get the "Introduction + 2 key points supported with explanations or examples" structure. (TOEFL Speaking Task 1)

Or listen to these two people talking about a problem and describe what you hear.. "The man's problem.. His friend suggests.. In my opinion, he should.. The first reason.. I also believe that.." (TOEFL Speaking Task 5)

Take this random graph and write an essay on what it describes.. No chance you'd ever tick all the boxes. Or even think to use the flowery language that the IELTS requires. (IELTS Writing Task 1)

Edit: And do it all while using complex grammar that you might never use normally.

That's the problem though. That's actually a test of communication and presentation ability.

90% of most populations would do quite poorly, if unprepared.

The issue is that a native speaker assumes "this is a piece of cake." Then gets a major shock when they discover it's an exam you've actually got yo study for.

I know two native French speakers with masters who did badly on the DELF which is the French equivalent of this.

Also bear in mind that language isn't a strong point for a large % of the population. Many people would struggle with this kind of testing.

The Australians and others are most likely using it as a fairly calculated way of excluding people on the basis of academic performance.

An English language test for day to day use would be more like reading basic signage and correspondence and being able to follow conversation at a cafe, at work or in the supermarket.

Having grown up in another English speaking country should also be an exemption.
Applying this test to people of English speaking backgrounds just proves that it's actually something else : an academic barrier to entry.

Many Australians would fail it for exactly the same reasons.

osarusan · 29-09-2015 10:29AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Who the **** marks out of 9??

IELTS does. Or rather, they combine scores to reach a score which fits into proficiency bands ranging from 0-9.

TOEIC will really annoy you - it's marked out of 990.

Precious flower · 29-09-2015 05:52PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm surprised there isn't an exemption for native english speakers

They really want to keep the Irish out, they just want to avoid being labelled xenophobic

:pac: The English and the Australians are plotting together to keep us out of Australia for once!:pac:

Electric Sheep · 30-09-2015 12:15AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I'm open to correction but I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is a feature if hiberno-English. I remember my CELTA instructor (who was from the south if England) explaining something about how Irish people use past participles differently . It's unique and a feature of our English.

No, it's not. I have heard the same usage in the UK and the US, though usually from those with lower educational attainments.

Canard · 30-09-2015 05:36PM

Reiver wrote: »

We're lucky not to have cases in English. Even Irish has less than German!

Actually, Irish has 5! German only has 4. But they're not really that bad.

StonyIron · 01-10-2015 12:07AM

Interesting we're exempt from it normally for 457 visas

"An IELTS test is not required in cases where the nominated occupation does not require a level of English language competency for grant of registration, license or membership and the primary applicant:

Holds a passport of Canada, New Zealand, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom; or the United States of America; ..."

What's happening here is he's insufficient points based on other criteria for an independent visa so, he's optionally using the IELTS exam to make up the necessary points.

Age, type of skills etc all give points.

Eugene Norman · 01-10-2015 07:43AM

StonyIron wrote: »

Interesting we're exempt from it normally for 457 visas

"An IELTS test is not required in cases where the nominated occupation does not require a level of English language competency for grant of registration, license or membership and the primary applicant:

Holds a passport of Canada, New Zealand, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom; or the United States of America; ..."

What's happening here is he's insufficient points based on other criteria for an independent visa so, he's optionally using the IELTS exam to make up the necessary points.

Age, type of skills etc all give points.

I see. So Irelands graduates are not being tested.

As always when there is a debate on Irish education standards I google the Pisa results for 15 year olds and find Ireland does pretty well, particularly in comprehension/reading where it tops the English speaking world and is ahead of Australia.

http://mobile.news.com.au/national/pisa-report-finds-australian-teenagers-education-worse-than-10-years-ago/story-fncynjr2-1226774541525

Irish people fail English exam

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