Irish people fail English exam

StonyIron · 27-09-2015 09:10PM

Sheep Lover wrote: »

How many scousers or geordies would pass it?

Same % as most English speaking places.

The majority of us never formally learn grammar.

Sheep Lover · 27-09-2015 09:13PM

StonyIron wrote: »

Same % as most English speaking places.

The majority of us never formally learn grammar.

Probably for the best, practical subjects like maths, science, coding etc should have precedence over learning the ins and outs of English.

PARlance · 27-09-2015 09:13PM

osarusan wrote: »

This is the IELTS test.

I don't know how it is used in this case, but normally, you don't 'fail' the test, you just take it and get a score out of 40, which is used to calculate a score between 1 and 9.

It's a proficiency test very commonly used for entrance to universities - for example, a person trying to get into a Master's Degree in Computer Engineering at UL would need a 7 overall, and no lower than 6.5 in any infividual skill score (listening, reading, writing, speaking).

i have taught IELTS classes and courses many times, and while the test is tricky at times, I am surprised that any native speaker would score so low. To score under 7, a person would need to be getting 29/40 or lower.

And that's a 6.

"infividual" = individual.
You should have started the final paragraph with a capital I.

StonyIron · 27-09-2015 09:18PM

Sheep Lover wrote: »

Probably for the best, practical subjects like maths, science, coding etc should have precedence over learning the ins and outs of English.

It's important that people be able to communicate in the language of the place they're emigrating to but, it doesn't necessarily mean much to get a score in IELTS.

In some respects you can also score highly in that exam by learning the format. I regularly encounter people who've had high scores on it but struggle with basic comprehension "in the real world".

Having grown up in an English speaking country and having been to school in English should be more than enough to get by.

It will also trip up dyslexics and even people who are just shy about expressing themselves in a chat. There's a lot of oral exam type structures that involve speaking at length about topics

Starting that conversation with "G'day!" would probably lose you points too!

starling · 28-09-2015 01:51AM

Precious flower wrote: »

I think what he/she means is that in that sentence it should be "you and me" not "you and I". A little trick to know when to use it is to take out you and just leave the "I" or "me" in the sentence. You wouldn't say "that belongs to I" so you use "me". You don't use I all the time when referring to yourself and another person, it depends if it suits the sentence or not.

Yeah obviously, but how the fúck is that related to being Australian? Americans do that all the time too. So do we. Some people are not good at grammar, but it's bizarre to claim that's something to do with being Autralian. That's why s/he sounds like s/he's joking, because it's such a weird thing to say.

Edit: I think you mean "it depends on whether or not it suits the sentence."

starling · 28-09-2015 02:04AM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I'd also say that a lot of irish English speakers don't speak gramatically correct english at all. Not even close, even if they tried.

I consider myself a well spoken person and my girlfriend is not a native English speaker. She often asks me grammatical questions as to why I say one thing vs another. Generally I haven't a clue. I say its because that's the way I was thought.

Edit: my Australian housemate also failed the English language test for a British passport.

It's true. In spoken English, particularly in informal settings, hardly anyone uses perfect grammar. If they do, it often sounds awkward; that's partly due to its being uncommon and partly down to the natural rhythms of speech. For example the way some Americans say "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care less." Spoken aloud, the former is just easier to say.

Can't help but echo Iron's suggestion above that it might have something to do with making it more difficult for certain people to immigrate to Australia. They are quite strict about it, after all.

starling · 28-09-2015 02:06AM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

for the exact same reason as the irish republic, places like wales, certain areas of scotland and northern ireland were not meant to be speaking english and so are poor at speaking it correctly.

Or they just speak it differently, nothing wrong with that

StonyIron · 28-09-2015 02:11AM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

for the exact same reason as the irish republic, places like wales, certain areas of scotland and northern ireland were not meant to be speaking english and so are poor at speaking it correctly.

I'll just tell uncle Arfur to get ou'f the barfroom in perfek London English! Init?

mikhail · 28-09-2015 01:30PM

starling wrote: »

For example the way some Americans say "I could care less" when they mean "I couldn't care less." Spoken aloud, the former is just easier to say.

It's not ungrammatical, just wrong.

I'm not a prescriptivist, but if you allow the word "not" to become meaningless your language is regressing towards incoherent bellowing.

sbsquarepants · 28-09-2015 01:40PM

Now class - try translate the following into any language whatsoever

"You won't believe what this gobshíte's after been doing" - as said by every irish father in history.

Conall Cernach · 28-09-2015 04:19PM

starling wrote: »

Yeah obviously, but how the fúck is that related to being Australian? Americans do that all the time too. So do we. Some people are not good at grammar, but it's bizarre to claim that's something to do with being Autralian. That's why s/he sounds like s/he's joking, because it's such a weird thing to say.

Edit: I think you mean "it depends on whether or not it suits the sentence."

I related it to being Australian because I have noticed that Australians on TV do this a lot. On Irish or English TV you would only see this if the person was speaking in dialect and even then you would normally get the opposite happening, they would use You and Me incorrectly e.g. "you and me should stick together".

In Australia it seems that they will always use "You and I" even if it is sometimes incorrect. You will see characters who are supposed to be English teachers doing this too. Between the actor, the scriptwriter and the director you'd think that someone would realise that the line is wrong. This is what leads me to suspect that Australians, like Americans, have their own English language grammar rules that we don't use and if they do then that would explain why an Irish person might have difficulty passing their test.

28-09-2015 04:28PM

The number of people who don't know the difference between there, their and they're is staggering not to mention lose and loose. Such basic errors would result in failures. Makes you wonder what level of schooling they got.

starling · 28-09-2015 04:42PM

mikhail wrote: »

It's not ungrammatical, just wrong.

I'm not a prescriptivist, but if you allow the word "not" to become meaningless your language is regressing towards incoherent bellowing.

Oh believe me, I share your feelings about it, it always grates on me when I hear it. I wasn't using it as an example of a grammatical error, rather I was trying to describe how sometimes the act of speaking influences how people phrase things, if that makes sense. At the time that was the only thing I could think of because I was off my face

osarusan · 28-09-2015 04:43PM

starling wrote: »

Yeah obviously, but how the fúck is that related to being Australian? Americans do that all the time too. So do we. Some people are not good at grammar, but it's bizarre to claim that's something to do with being Australian.

It's a (crude) way to help determine whether somebody is the kind of immigrant they want in Australia, rather than having anything to do with being Australian.

starling · 28-09-2015 04:48PM

Conall Cernach wrote: »

I related it to being Australian because I have noticed that Australians on TV do this a lot. On Irish or English TV you would only see this if the person was speaking in dialect and even then you would normally get the opposite happening, they would use You and Me incorrectly e.g. "you and me should stick together".

Yes, but Americans do it a lot too, it's not specific to Australia. I actually don't watch much Irish television at all so I'll take your word for it there.

Conall Cernach wrote: »

In Australia it seems that they will always use "You and I" even if it is sometimes incorrect. You will see characters who are supposed to be English teachers doing this too. Between the actor, the scriptwriter and the director you'd think that someone would realise that the line is wrong. This is what leads me to suspect that Australians, like Americans, have their own English language grammar rules that we don't use and if they do then that would explain why an Irish person might have difficulty passing their test.

Well yes, Australians speak English in their own way, just like we do, but the test would not be using that as a standard. The formal rules of grammar wouldn't be different because it's the same language just as the rules of grammar in Ireland are the same even though informally we might speak English in our own way.

starling · 28-09-2015 04:51PM

Conall Cernach wrote: »

I've noticed on programmes like Neighbours and Home and Away that Australians say "I" in a lot of cases where they should be using "me" e.g. they will say "that belongs to you and I" instead of "that belongs to you and me". Maybe they have different grammar rules there that trip up Irish English speakers.

starling wrote: »

Yeah obviously, but how the fúck is that related to being Australian? Americans do that all the time too. So do we. Some people are not good at grammar, but it's bizarre to claim that's something to do with being Autralian. That's why s/he sounds like s/he's joking, because it's such a weird thing to say.

Edit: I think you mean "it depends on whether or not it suits the sentence."

osarusan wrote: »

It's a (crude) way to help determine whether somebody is the kind of immigrant they want in Australia, rather than having anything to do with being Australian.

I don't disagree with you at all, just wondering why you were quoting me there...sorry, I'm really stoned

osarusan · 28-09-2015 04:57PM

starling wrote: »

I don't disagree with you at all, just wondering why you were quoting me there...sorry, I'm really stoned

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

Conall Cernach · 28-09-2015 04:58PM

starling wrote: »

Well yes, Australians speak English in their own way, just like we do, but the test would not be using that as a standard. The formal rules of grammar wouldn't be different because it's the same language just as the rules of grammar in Ireland are the same even though informally we might speak English in our own way.

Maybe whoever set or marked the test was Australian and perhaps they are failing people for not using the Australian version of the language. Just like if you did an English test in America and you spelled the word "centre" correctly they would expect you to spell it "center".

asherbassad · 28-09-2015 04:59PM

endacl wrote: »

Dey failed it cause nobody learned them to talk proper.

Incorrect use of tenses: I seen it. I done it. Etc.
Getting words mixed up. Synonyms.

Lots of reasons we might fail.

How could you POSSIBLY fail an English test when you've passed at least Junior Cert English?

Did the 90% who failed not go to school at all or dropped out in 5th class at age 11?

R.D. aka MR.D · 28-09-2015 05:02PM

There are many problems with the test. A major issue is the fact that that those who are in charge of making the test are heavily biased to the kind of English they use in a certain part of England.

They try to add things with different speakers and try to include different Englishs but it is all very superficial. At the end of the day if you don't speak a specific kind of English, you are not going to pass the test.

The IELTs is a test of taking a test. There are strategies to taking it. I haven't taught much IELTs but I have taught TOEFL (the American version) and it's extremely difficult. I'm a well educated ESL teacher and it's difficult for me, I can't imagine my brother or his friends trying to tackle it.

It's not that they don't speak English, it's the test that is flawed.

seamus · 28-09-2015 05:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The number of people who don't know the difference between there, their and they're is staggering not to mention lose and loose. Such basic errors would result in failures. Makes you wonder what level of schooling they got.

Yeah, but from a communication perspective it's actually irrelevant. If you were talking to someone face to face, whether they know the difference between these spellings makes no odds. They know the difference in meaning.

So for the purposes of this kind of entry test, spelling accuracy or grammar is less important than the ability to communicate.

Now, granted, if someone's written ability is completely on the floor then they're going to have trouble obtaining any kind of employment. But at the same time, requiring high school-leaver proficiency is not strictly necessary.

It would have to work out far more cost-effective to do some kind of short interview (15 minutes or so), with an Aussie with a softish accent. Make sure they're capable of carrying out a comprehensive, flowing conversation where neither side are consistently having to say, "what". Then a few short multiple-choice reading comprehension questions and a short (250 word) essay or letter which is automatically scored.

Bundle it all up and have someone assess it for the final call, e.g. "This guy is coming here to be a plumber, so a 50% writing ability score is fine, but this other guy is moving here to pursue a career as an investment banker, so his 60% conversational score isn't good enough".

The King of Moo · 28-09-2015 05:20PM

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Maybe whoever set or marked the test was Australian and perhaps they are failing people for not using the Australian version of the language. Just like if you did an English test in America and you spelled the word "centre" correctly they would expect you to spell it "center".

That wouldn't really be relevant for IELTS. Words can be spelled with either American or British English spellings, though in the listening you have to spell the words exactly right to get a point.
And the writing and speaking markers are looking for standard British-style academic English, so colloquial differences in language wouldn't come into it.
It's also marked by official IELTS markers so people in government wouldn't have much say in it.

asherbassad wrote: »

How could you POSSIBLY fail an English test when you've passed at least Junior Cert English?

Did the 90% who failed not go to school at all or dropped out in 5th class at age 11?

See the posts above about the details of the exam. It's not a basic test of English ability at all.
It'd be more relevant to ask how a recent postgraduate who've familiarised themselves with the formula of the exam could fail to meet the required band score, as I wouldn't hold high hopes of anyone else doing well in it.

764dak · 28-09-2015 07:45PM

I found out you have to take it if you're migrating to the UK, New Zealand and Canada as well. The US requires TOEFL.

28-09-2015 08:00PM

I'm surprised there isn't an exemption for native english speakers

TheNobleKipper · 28-09-2015 08:22PM

I don't quite understand how such a huge number of people can fail a language test (which can be tricky of course) in their native language. I hear that grammar isn't really explained in Irish schools so I'd understand if people had problems identifying specific grammatical cases but there is absolutely no excuse if you cannot fill in blanks to complete a sentence (tradespeople incl)

The King of Moo · 28-09-2015 08:27PM

TheNobleKipper wrote: »

I don't quite understand how such a huge number of people can fail a language test (which can be tricky of course) in their native language. I hear that grammar isn't really explained in Irish schools so I'd understand if people had problems identifying specific grammatical cases but there is absolutely no excuse if you cannot fill in blanks to complete a sentence (tradespeople incl)

The IELTS exam isn't about basic grammar or syntax at all. You will lose marks for grammatical mistakes, but you won't gain any marks for simple correct grammar or sentence structure.
And though it's true that we're not taught grammar much, we all have an intuitive grasp of most of the basics, even txtspking yunflas.

You'll only do well if you have a good grasp of formal academic English from spending a significant time in university, and applying yourself. And you have to be very fast too.

Have a look at these sample materials:

http://www.ielts.org/test_takers_information/test_sample.aspx

AnLonDubh · 28-09-2015 08:29PM

starling wrote: »

Well yes, Australians speak English in their own way, just like we do, but the test would not be using that as a standard. The formal rules of grammar wouldn't be different because it's the same language just as the rules of grammar in Ireland are the same even though informally we might speak English in our own way.

In actual fact the rules of grammar are different in the different countries, as grammar is simply the set of rules a spoken language obeys. Being the same language means that our rules and the vocabulary they act upon are similar enough for high mutual comprehensibility with Americans, the English, e.t.c.

Unfortunately English, unlike other languages like French, German, e.t.c. does not a one dialect fixed as its "standard" version to use in a business context, as a target for learners, e.t.c. Instead we have a nebulous idea of "acceptable good English", with a considerable amount of personal judgement as to what is right or wrong.

Consider say Russian. There is a standard Russian, which you learn as a foreigner and is taught in schools, but it's perfectly acceptable to use your local version socially. Contrast this with English where "do be" is consider a sign of being stupid by people who can't clearly explain why their own speech is correct. The truth is nothing is "correct", just "standardised". It would be much better, I think, if there was a standard version of English.

rubadub · 28-09-2015 08:44PM

Mr Wall (29), was born with cerebral palsy. “It was said to my parents ‘shove this guy in a wheelchair. He’ll never walk, he’ll never talk.’

IELTS | Test Takers - Speaking sample

In the Speaking test, you have a discussion with a certified Examiner. It is interactive and as close to a real-life situation as a test can get.

The test is 11 to 14 minutes long with three parts. In Part 1, you answer questions about yourself and your family. In Part 2, you speak about a topic. In Part 3, you have a longer discussion on the topic.

IELTS | Test Takers - General Training Writing sample

The General Training Writing test is 60 minutes long.

It has two writing tasks of 150 words and 250 words.

“I have to achieve a mark seven or higher in each of the four aspects, reading, writing, speaking and listening. I have done the exam three times and failed by half a mark each time. I failed in different aspects each time.”

The failure does not surprise me, I imagine articulate British genius Stephen Hawking would fail too -or am I missing something here?

Calibos · 28-09-2015 08:49PM

Thousands upon thousands of Irish labourers and brickies emigrate to OZ, every town in Ireland notices a large drop in the amount of loud drunken carry on and vandalism after pub closing time, 90% of recent Irish immigrants to OZ fail basic English test.......Correlation?

The King of Moo · 28-09-2015 08:52PM

rubadub wrote: »

The failure does not surprise me, I imagine articulate British genius Stephen Hawking would fail too -or am I missing something here?

No, it really is that tough. In reality, one would probably need to have at least Masters' level experience to have a good chance of success without having English-language classes to prepare.

Here in Ireland we have lots of Saudis and Chinese taking the exam again and again to get into Masters' courses here. While I don't think the exam is a complete money-making racket, I also don't think many people are complaining about the amount of money they're making off it.

Irish people fail English exam

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