Is the Ulster Chess Union rejoining the Irish Chess Union?

VanMorrison · 25-09-2015 7:51pm #1

The Irish Chess Union website (icu.ie) has a sharp exchange between ICU leader Mr Fitzsimons and UCU leader Mr Cunningham.

I invite you to read those exchanges first.

A miniature worthy of the scrapbook for Mr Fitzsimons.

But on to the substantive stuff.

A number of questions and issues come to mind about the Ulster Chess Union:

1) After Mr Cunningham removes his face from Mr Fitzsimons custard pie, has he realized that all communication between himself and the UCU's Secretary Mr Newman, has broken down?

2) If Mr Newman has promoted a motion at the last UCU AGM to 'rejoin' the ICU, why wasn't such a motion formulated as an EGM/Change to the Constitution motion? Mr Newman is both Secretary and Proposer of the motion. If Mr Newman has ploughed ahead and attempted to rejoin the ICU, in ignorance of his own constitution, I must conclude he is unfit to do the job. After the exchange between Mr Fitzsimons and Mr Cunningham I find it hard to believe that both Mr Newman and Mr Cunningham are competent. At least one can't do their job.

3) I've noticed from the members section of the UCU website referenced in Mr Newman's letter that there are only about 6 clubs affiliated to the UCU. Within Ulster it appears more people play in clubs outside the auspices of the UCU than do inside the UCU. I recall more people turning up at a normal Saturday Omagh Chess Club meeting than did at a UCU run weekender in 2014. The 101 members claimed on the UCU website seems a bit inflated, particularly when you cross-reference the number of rated games played. Would a number of these players simply stop playing when ICU membership fees are added to UCU fees and clubs fees? Wasn't that why the UCU split 10 years ago?

4) What are we to make of rival organisation northernirelandchessassociation.com ?

5) Would the ICU be in violation of the Fide rule on "only organizing within your own territory" (paraphrasing) (Fide Handbook Membership Chapter 02 A 2.1 and elsewhere) Does the ICU want the headache of organizing chess in NI (when the UCU have been failing miserably at this task since Ulster's heyday in the 80s and early 90s) only to be rapped on the knuckles by Fide? The last ICU run event in Ulster was the Irish Championships in the mid 80s unless someone else recalls one since (children's and university chess aside).

6) If there are any good players left in the North they are already welcome to travel and play in tournaments in Ireland. Mr Cairns traveled and won (jointly) the recent Dun Laoghaire rapid on the same weekend as the Ulster Championships. He like many other good players appears to no longer plays in UCU events.

7) I'm going to think the unthinkable and say if a Northern Ireland team turned up at an Olympiad Dev, Collins and Pearse will not be turning in their grave. If Irish Olympic boxers can turn out for NI at Commonwealth Games, then it's no big deal if NI turns out at an Olympiad. There hasn't been a player good enough to get into an Irish (Open) team since Mark Orr, Tom Clarke and the Gillen twins 20 years ago. Maybe a NI international team could kick start their chess economy.

Before the ICU welcomes the UCU with open arms, remember "beware the poisoned pawn".

Responses from Mr Fitzsimons, Mr Cunningham and Mr Newman are welcome.

Ross Harris · 25-09-2015 9:12pm

sigh

1) Mr Newman has a very good relationship with Mr Cunningham. They communicate on a regular basis.

2) Mr Newman didn't promote a motion to re-join the ICU, it was to affiliate. I should know, I seconded it. Both Mr Newman and Mr Cunningham are very competent.

3) The UCU has 8 clubs that play in the Ulster Leagues and there are 19 teams registered this year for the league. That's 95 people playing on a regular basis every week. That doesn't even take into account that each team has a much larger squad than 5 players. There are 124 members on the website, but this will change a lot once the league starts and members pay their fees. Rather than the "101" being an inflated number it's much lower than the number of active players in the UCU.

4) The Northern Ireland Chess Association has no adult members (other than the founder) and doesn't even have that many junior players.

5) I think FIDE would welcome a tournament in Northern Ireland as they don't see us as a separate entity.

6) There are really only a couple of good players that no longer play in the UCU but are active elsewhere. And these players aren't even that active anymore, they play the odd rapidplay. Most of the top players that don't play in the UCU anymore have simply retired from tournament chess. This obviously refers to people resident in Northern Ireland and not elsewhere around the world.

7) I agree with you on this point, we don't have enough top players active in Northern Ireland

VanMorrison · 25-09-2015 9:46pm

From thefreedictionary.com

af·fil·i·ate (ə-fĭl′ē-āt′)
v. af·fil·i·at·ed, af·fil·i·at·ing, af·fil·i·ates
v.tr.
1. To adopt or accept as a member, subordinate associate, or branch: The HMO affiliated the clinics last year.
2. To associate (oneself) as a subordinate, subsidiary, employee, or member: affiliated herself with a new law firm.
3. To assign the origin of.
v.intr.
To become closely connected or associated: The two unions voted to affiliate.
n. (-ē-ĭt, -āt′)
A person, organization, or establishment associated with another as a subordinate, subsidiary, or member: network affiliates.

Also from thefreedictionary.com

join (join)
v. joined, join·ing, joins
v.tr.
1. To put or bring together so as to make continuous or form a unit: join two boards with nails; joined hands in a circle.
2. To put or bring into close association or relationship: two families that were joined by marriage; join forces.
3. To connect (points), as with a straight line.
4. To meet and merge with: where the creek joins the river.
5. To become a part or member of: joined the photography club.
6. To come into the company of: joined the group in the waiting room.
7. To participate with in an act or activity: The committee joins me in welcoming you.
8. To adjoin: where the garage joins the house.
9. To engage in; enter into: Opposing armies joined battle on the plain.
v.intr.
1. To come together so as to form a connection: where the two bones join.
2. To act together; form an alliance: The two factions joined to oppose the measure.
3. To become a member of a group.
4. To take part; participate: joined in the search.
n.
A joint; a junction.

Not really much of a difference except that affiliating involves 'bending the knee' to use a bit of Game of Thrones lingo.

From Mr Newman's letter, "We wish to work with and within the ICU ..."

Mr Cunningham seems to think he was doing the asking in February 2014, whereas Mr Newman in correspondence seems to think Mr Fitzsimons was doing the asking.

Since it's impossible to find a constitution, minutes of AGMs, minutes of meetings of the UCU board or UCU-ICU correspondence on UlsterChess.org (and I wonder if your membership know what you do) maybe Mr Harris will tell us if he is a UCU board member and what he understands the words to mean, when he seconded the 'affiliating'.

Ross Harris · 25-09-2015 9:55pm

Yes I'm a board member and I've already explained all your points in the "use of icu.ie for electioneering" thread

VanMorrison · 25-09-2015 10:22pm

Yes I've just seen Mr Harris made a statement about this yesterday on a thread which started on a different topic.

sigh

Put the headache tablets away Ross I see Mr Cunningham is banging away rightly on behalf of the UCU in that thread, determined never to read a dictionary!

The pity is that everything you said in your post wasn't in Mr Newman's letter. Your understanding of the meeting seems very different to his letter.

And to keep us fully up to date, does someone want to say how much the UCU is paying the ICU to affiliate, and what exactly you are getting in return?

Ballynafeigh Chess · 25-09-2015 10:45pm

Ross I'm confident you're debating with

Lecale · 26-09-2015 6:55am

So what does affiliation mean? That is described here https://www.icu.ie/icu/affiliation_byelaws

We also note the constitution:

Article 5. MEMBERSHIP
5.1 Membership of the union shall be open to all persons who agree to be bound by the provisions of this constitution and who comply with its bye laws.

5.2 The fees and subscriptions to be paid for membership shall be determined by the Executive annually in advance of the Annual General Meeting and shall be reported to that meeting in the TreasurerÂ’s Report.

Article 6. PROVINCIAL CHESS UNIONS
The Union recognises the special role played by provincial chess unions in helping it to promote the sport. These bodies are affiilated to the Union and have a right of representation on its Executive and to send two delegates each to General Meetings of the Union. The Union may recognise other bodies or organisations connected with chess in Ireland as affiliates.

join and affiliate are 2 distinct verbs.

Ross Harris · 26-09-2015 1:04pm

Mark Newman's letter talk's about "making closer ties with the ICU". It also states plainly that the motion was to affiliate to the ICU. As Lecale's post shows there is difference between joining and affiliating. All the attachments supplied with Mr Newman's letter are required by the byelaws for affiliation. As stated previously, it was made absolutely clear at the AGM, by Mark Newman I may add, the difference between affiliating and joining. So all our members who attended the AGM were fully aware of what they were voting on.

From the byelaws for affiliation

"Affiliated bodies are required to pay a €12.70 affiliation fee annually"

Lecale has explained nicely what this gets us.

VanMorrison · 26-09-2015 6:13pm

Affiliate and join are much the same thing. Everyone can see it. Picking a fight with the ICU President on that ground was a moronic move.

Mr Newman and Mr Harris' motion seems like an attempt to undermine the Ulster Chess Union's constitution (the part that says they are the organizers of chess in Northern Ireland) from within without doing the decent thing and calling an EGM.

Mr Newman's letter makes no reference to negotiations between the UCU and ICU, but surely that is what is required. If Mr Harris' goal is to be achieved (his thread in 'icu electioneering') then the ICU will have to leave behind large chunks of it's own constitution (requiring an EGM) in particular the parts where players/members (often through the offices of tournament organizers) are required to pay the ICU much needed cash. Do you think Mr Fitzsimons (or Mr McMorrow) is going to say to the delegates of Leinster, Munster and Connaught, "shh boys we're letting them in for free"?

If you affiliate you agree to their rules. It's how it works with FIDE and ECU. Why would it be different when affiliating to the ICU?

Lecale · 26-09-2015 6:45pm

VanMorrison wrote: »

If Mr Harris' goal is to be achieved (his thread in 'icu electioneering') then the ICU will have to leave behind large chunks of it's(sic) own constitution (requiring an EGM)

Can you say which parts of the constitution?

Ballynafeigh Chess · 26-09-2015 6:48pm

I thought you were done with chess?

Ross Harris · 26-09-2015 6:50pm

Considering you are so vocal your lack of understanding of this subject actually astounds me. There is a clear distinction between affiliation and joining. When you say everyone can see there isn't, who is this everyone? The whole of the UCU AGM saw the distinction. There seems to be a lot of people on here who see the distinction. Can I ask a couple of questions...were you at the UCU AGM to actually hear what was discussed? Were you involved in the discussions with the ICU over the proposed affiliation? I was heavily involved with both of these and am not getting my information second hand.

The iCU won't need to change it's constitution at all. The UCU affiliating doesn't grant our members membership of the ICU...they need to pay that themselves if they wish to join. But there is no obligation to do so. So nobody is "getting in for free".

VanMorrison · 26-09-2015 8:21pm

@Lecale icu membership byelaws parts 2-4. I hope your next point has more meat on the bone that a typo!

@Mr Harris Clearly Mr Cunningham and Mr Fitzsimons saw it in very different terms. Hence their disagreement.

Feel free to publish the UCU AGM minutes so we can all follow the events of your AGM. Feel free to publish your minutes of discussions with the ICU. In fact this is the first time you have mentioned discussions between the UCU and the ICU. Why so secretive? Those with democratic tendencies normally keep their membership informed of such big decisions (by putting stuff on their website).

Since you're still missing the other point, let's give it another go. If the UCU affiliates to the ICU then the UCU (just like LCU, MCU and CCU) are expected to comply with ALL of the rules of the ICU as part of thon membership. Those rules on the face of it include enforcing membership bylaws 2-4 i.e. you gotta pay an ICU fee to play in UCU tournaments - which was the state of play 10 years ago, before you found chess, and in a nutshell why the UCU and ICU split (or disaffiliated if you prefer).

Perhaps you have imagined a whole new world where none of this happens, but there's nothing in any published ICU or UCU documents to say the ICU rule book is gonna' change just for the Ulster Men be they standing up or sitting down.

All we see from your version (alt. thread) is that the status quo remains plus the UCU paying a tenner to send a delegate to meetings, until presumably he gets sent home like a MCU delegate! With the best will in the world Mr Cunningham couldn't last a whole ICU Executive Meeting.

If your constitution isn't for changing (feel free to tell me if it is or isn't) and you remain the body responsible for organizing chess in Northern Ireland as it says, shouldn't you get on with the business of re-applying to FIDE and the ECU - quite a number of new countries have joined since you first applied a decade ago - and at least start sending a team to the European Club Championships, which you have had a open invitation to since 2006.

Lecale · 26-09-2015 8:30pm

Well Van, the real point is are those rules applicable to those who are only members of an affiliated body? As indicated, these are rules applying to individual members of the ICU.

VanMorrison · 26-09-2015 8:59pm

Careful attention must be paid to point 4. The Controllers are surely the minor pieces than rule the roost over the pawns.

Lecale · 26-09-2015 9:14pm

You avoid the central point; Controllers who are members of the ICU, or Controllers who are only members of a body affiliated to the ICU?

For example, say the Irish Bridge Union affiliated for some reason, what would happen to their members?

Ballynafeigh Chess · 27-09-2015 2:03am

VanMorrison wrote: »

shouldn't you get on with the business of re-applying to FIDE and the ECU - quite a number of new countries have joined since you first applied a decade ago - and at least start sending a team to the European Club Championships, which you have had a open invitation to since 2006.

We really didn’t apply ten years ago; the wasted exercise ended up being nothing more than a bit of a jolly. Once off the free flight our representative only managed to sheepishly stumble from one interrupted conversation to another without achieving anything concrete and embarrassingly came back with the worst case of possibly maybe technically disease that I and others had ever heard.

Our own fault really as its now agreed by most that our representative was never competent enough in the first place for anything requiring attention to detail. Having spoken to voting delegates who were present since then it was clear that even a case of possibly maybe technically was only a pipe dream for the delusional.

As for having an open invitation to send a team to the European club championships of course we have ... anyone has, any union or federation only need apply being a full member of FIDE is not a requirement insisted upon.

VanMorrison · 27-09-2015 12:55pm

@ BNF Chess

You're not addressing any of the issues, just engaging in cat calling. Save that for your own blog.

Try addressing:

1. Why wasn't the UCU membership informed of what appears to be a long and secretive attempt to renegotiate entry to the ICU by the UCU Board, which is at odds with the UCU's constitution? This has, on your account, been going on since at least Feb 2014.

2. Why is Mr Newman's letter of 26 July 2015 at odds with everything else said about the motion discussed and voted upon at the UCU AGM?

Since metaphor is your thing I'll try to say it your way...

It seems Mr Fitzsimons was is the lavatory trying to flush one of your more colorful metaphors, while you were starting the car having seen the face you might one day have to kiss; Mr Leitch (from his facebook entry) and Mr Harris were in the kitchen with their coats still on wondering whether to go on a second open date after a first secret one; while Mr Newman was in the bedroom getting undressed and saying to hell with any attempt to negotiate a prenuptial agreement.

You can't all be telling it right.

All Mr Fitzsimons did was post Mr Newman's account of the date he said he was on. If Mr Newman is an unreliable narrator, you've only got yourselves to blame, you voted him in.

3. Feel free to start afresh and paint your vision, to both the ICU and UCU memberships, of what a new date/affiliation will look like. Mr Fitzsimons (or Mr McMorrow) may need a little convincing to go on a second one with the existing UCU Board. Don't spare the details. Tell us where we're going, who's doing the arranging, and of course who is going to pay for this date. If the UCU says we going Dutch, and you end up sipping water, it sounds like a lousy date already.

If you're coming to the ICU AGM, I'll be the guy that offers you a dictionary, when you get stuck.

Lecale · 27-09-2015 1:33pm

It's probably best to see if the UCU membership really share that perspective first, particularly those who voted to affiliate. I'm sure Damien will appreciate the dictionary; I hear that chapter 4 is great.

iriship · 06-10-2015 1:06pm

Hi Lads,
I do not know the politics of all this ICU and UCU stuff or how we got here. But If the IRFU can work thing out so can we. I have played and socialized with many players from all of the Island of Ireland.
Long may that last

Is the Ulster Chess Union rejoining the Irish Chess Union?

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