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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

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Comments

  • #5162
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    FeenaM wrote: »
    Exactly, in hindsight I think it should be ran at PMP so then you can assess how you might be to continue for twice the distance. By actually racing it, I feel it has put a halt to the progress I was making and there is not enough time to get back on track.

    If it didn't go well, then I suppose you reassess your pace for the full marathon unless there was other factors involved in in not going well?

    Would be interested to hear from some of the mentors if this would typical to race a HM in some of the more advanced plans at such a late stage of training?

    It's not uncommon for a high mileage/level runner to race a half about 6 weeks out from a goal marathon. Interestingly a really fast half is often an indication that training hasn't been calibrated correctly and the subsequent marathon will be disappointing i.e. you can get one good result but not two.

    It's often a good idea for novices too as many novices won't have run that far in a race before and typically haven't trained themselves to push their limits to breaking point so recovery time is relatively quick.


    For intermediate runners I usually advise against it as they'll have the ability to push themselves a bit harder but not the base to recover quickly from it (my logic anyway!). That said we're all individuals and there are undoubtedly instances where it would suit some people well and others not at all.

    One theory I have is that predominantly slow twitch runners will recover well from a half with little impact on training whereas someone with a greater mix of fibres will take longer to recover having a greater impact on subsequent training.

    I think that I may have digressed a little so I'll stop here hoping that I've answered the question - if not, let me know!


  • #5163
    chrislad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,324 ✭✭✭chrislad


    duffer247 wrote: »
    You raise a good point, my main reason for the HM was the milestone nature of it, that if it goes well then its a good indication of how the training is going - what I didn't cater for was if it didn't go too well, what indication is this?

    I honestly feel that in hindsight, I wouldn't have raced it. I'm happy with the time, and the progress made, but the last 4 runs were a lot tougher than they needed to be as I was shattered. Just back from an intensive physio session so hopefully that will put me right.


  • #5164
    FeenaM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭FeenaM


    Clearlier wrote: »
    It's not uncommon for a high mileage/level runner to race a half about 6 weeks out from a goal marathon. Interestingly a really fast half is often an indication that training hasn't been calibrated correctly and the subsequent marathon will be disappointing i.e. you can get one good result but not two.

    It's often a good idea for novices too as many novices won't have run that far in a race before and typically haven't trained themselves to push their limits to breaking point so recovery time is relatively quick.


    For intermediate runners I usually advise against it as they'll have the ability to push themselves a bit harder but not the base to recover quickly from it (my logic anyway!). That said we're all individuals and there are undoubtedly instances where it would suit some people well and others not at all.

    One theory I have is that predominantly slow twitch runners will recover well from a half with little impact on training whereas someone with a greater mix of fibres will take longer to recover having a greater impact on subsequent training.

    I think that I may have digressed a little so I'll stop here hoping that I've answered the question - if not, let me know!

    Thanks Clearlier, very interesting. I can see how it would have benefits for some and not for others so. I guess I'll find out which group I fall into over the next few weeks :-)


  • #5165
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    chrislad wrote: »
    I honestly feel that in hindsight, I wouldn't have raced it. I'm happy with the time, and the progress made, but the last 4 runs were a lot tougher than they needed to be as I was shattered. Just back from an intensive physio session so hopefully that will put me right.

    After all of this recent slow running (honestly :)), it was nice to be able to race something substantial.

    If you've done 4 runs since the HM, then you've probably run 4 days in a row, so feeling a bit shattered wouldn't be unexpected.
    You'll be shattered this time next week too after following a HM with 4 runs and then a 20 mile lsr (depending on your plan) and then another 4 more runs.

    Look on the bright side - there's only about a hundred miles to go to the start of the marathon. :eek: I think I need to lie down for a bit now


  • #5166
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    FeenaM wrote: »
    I can't help thinking since the DHM on Saturday that it probably isn't a good idea to race a HM so close to a full marathon. My mileage has had to drop both last week and this week but yet it wasn't to give my body a rest. Just wondering what others thoughts are on this?

    I'm already trying to pick a second marathon next year and I definitely don't think I'll be putting a HM race in the plan.

    Or does it have benefits? Anybody else feel they have emptied the bank a bit??
    duffer247 wrote: »
    You raise a good point, my main reason for the HM was the milestone nature of it, that if it goes well then its a good indication of how the training is going - what I didn't cater for was if it didn't go too well, what indication is this?
    FeenaM wrote: »
    Exactly, in hindsight I think it should be ran at PMP so then you can assess how you might be to continue for twice the distance. By actually racing it, I feel it has put a halt to the progress I was making and there is not enough time to get back on track.

    If it didn't go well, then I suppose you reassess your pace for the full marathon unless there was other factors involved in in not going well?

    Would be interested to hear from some of the mentors if this would typical to race a HM in some of the more advanced plans at such a late stage of training?

    Hi FeenaM, apologies for the delay. I agree with Clearlier and I like his theory re slow twitch and fast twitchers. Fwiw, this is the longest I have ever taken to recover from a race (bar the marathon and I definitely emptied the tank on Sunday :eek:) and I strongly suspect I have more fast twitch fibres, probably a mixed bunch at the moment so feel free to slot that into your theory :)

    My digression over....

    My take on it is that a marathon training plan requires a singular focus unlike other plans and too many races remove that singular focus.
    A half marathon race is not a necessary part of the plan but many athletes race one for different reasons.

    For a novice runner, racing (or running) a half
    - gives you a dress rehearsal in a race setting (clothes, fuelling, hydration etc), unlike your other long runs
    - allows you to assess your pace judgement and ability to keep to an even pace
    - as a PMP, like you mention, allows you to test out your PMP but we have been doing that in the boards plan
    - gives you an idea how training has gone and allows you to reassess your marathon target, providing you resist the temptation to hang your hat on 'best possible outcome'
    - gives you respect for the distance you are about to tackle. You are going to run two of these babies. In a row.
    - tapering and recovering at this stage is not such an interrupt. The physiological benefits you gain from racing a half will 95% of the time outweigh the drawbacks. If, however, you have included a lot of tune up and build up races, and have been tapering for these, then yes, tapering and recovering again is not ideal. I suppose now y'all see what we been banging on about?! Also bear in mind that your recovery will be affected as your body has been ill. Don't forget to factor in the draining aspect of antibiotics. I know they leave my legs dead :eek:
    - the timing of this - five weeks out - is ok, optimal window is 5-8 weeks but Hal Higdon (ambivalent about their necessity) slots one in at nine weeks out.

    Hope this helps and if anything else comes to me I'll get back to you :) I would imagine that next year, as an intermediate, you'll be definitely including a half at PMP but I am dying to see how you get on at the shorter stuff too :)


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  • #5167
    smashiner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭smashiner


    Hope this helps and if anything else comes to me I'll get back to you :) I would imagine that next year, as an intermediate, you'll be definitely including a half at PMP but I am dying to see how you get on at the shorter stuff too :)[/QUOTE]

    Hi DG,
    I did the DCM last year (with after effects of Manflu, bad day at the office.....yak....yak, hence the 2015 attempt :rolleyes:), but what I did find in the races after it, I initially struggled to get my times back down, say on a 10K as I was 'used' to running slower as part of the marathon training. But when I did get back to running faster, I found that my stamina was significantly improved and I started to finish races really strongly, which was not a forte of mine prior to marathon training.

    Oh, and the mental piece was so much easier.... as I was now saying at the end of a Duathlon or 10K, 'sure there is only 3K left' and this is a walk in the park......people on the thread who are doing shorter runs during the week will by now should find that 10K will bounce off them and will take little out of them.....we is soooo fit :D


  • #5168
    duffer247
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭duffer247


    @chrislad I wonder how we would feel though if we hadn't done it (HM), it can be difficult reading run/race reports when not involved? I'm sure we would be thinking that we missed out on an important milestone


  • #5169
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    smashiner wrote: »
    week will by now should find that 10K will bounce off them and will take little out of them.....we is soooo fit :D

    I definitely finding shorter stuff easier, can run 8 miles in early am before
    brekie, only sip of water & out the door. Before marathon training these
    where challenging runs.:)


  • #5170
    This Fat Girl Runs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    duffer247 wrote: »
    I wonder how we would feel though if we hadn't done it, it can be difficult reading run/race reports when not involved? I'm sure we would be thinking that we missed out on an important milestone

    I was a bit jealous of everyone running the half last weekend. I wished I had been running it but in the end, that wasn't the main thing and I'm glad now that I didn't. It wasn't in the plan, I stuck to the plan and that will only do me good on marathon day which IS the main thing. :D

    I really enjoyed reading the race reports, even though I hadn't run it. Didn't make me feel like I had missed out. Although it probably helped that I was there to cheer and got to soak up the atmosphere with you all.


  • #5171
    diego_b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭diego_b


    nop98 wrote: »
    I was just thinking the exact same thing :)

    Just to say I love this route idea....
    Going to go for a shortish run in the next few mins to test out the leg/knee, the physio says to try it and stop if it starts to hurt more than say 3/10.
    I still have the strapping on my leg and will try employ a few small adjustments (I am concerned about trying to adjust form really but we'll see). I asked him about the LSR and he said if I feel okay to try it but if say I get to 13miles etc and not feeling good then to stop so that's my plan...start with you guys and see how I go. A few quid in the pocket for the hopefully not needed taxi back to my car in the park.


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  • #5172
    Mrs Mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    Feeling crap this evening think I'm getting a cold my throath is sore and I'm just feeling cold and tired. Think it would be wise to skip my 5 miles easy tonight get a lemsip dose up on my echinacea tablets and an early night. It's all about the 20 miles on Sunday after all.


  • #5173
    duffer247
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭duffer247


    nop98 wrote: »
    Hey duffer247, that would be appreciated - as my friend is not available! Where along the route do you think you can be? The further, the better :) Bushy Park? Not really sure what works for you. I'd say we'd be there about 10:35-45 or so.

    Bushy park would be perfect, will you be heading in Terenure direction?


  • #5174
    BobDylan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭BobDylan


    chrislad wrote: »
    I honestly feel that in hindsight, I wouldn't have raced it. I'm happy with the time, and the progress made, but the last 4 runs were a lot tougher than they needed to be as I was shattered. Just back from an intensive physio session so hopefully that will put me right.

    I also agree that in hindsight I wouldn't have raced last weekend. I did the Charleville HM and while I enjoyed the run, was delighted with my fitness, time and progress, I am shattered this week.
    So I'm asking myself was the race experience worth a week of, in my case, missed and poor runs? Even now, 4 days later I'm not sure if I will be fully recovered for the 20 miles due on Saturday.
    It's comforting though to realise others are feeling much the same.


  • #5175
    Bez Bing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 210 ✭✭Bez Bing


    One thing worth noting is that running on tired legs can be beneficial and can train you for the last 6.2 miles which will be unknown territory for you.

    A lot of advanced and intermediate plans would have races followed the next day by a long run.
    Elites do doubles and trebles to replicate running on tired legs.

    Embrace the tiredness, keep the runs easy this week and it will all stand to you come the big day (hopefully).

    This is great thread by the way, some very good advice which I'm taking on board myself as I train for my autumn marathon.
    Although not technically a novice (I have run a marathon before) I'm not far off it


  • #5176
    Toulouse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Toulouse


    Nop et al, will let you know about my mate tomorrow if that's okay? The injury is nothing serious but she'll let me know tomorrow whether she's up for 20 on Saturday.

    Have to say (and don't hate me), I'm really glad I raced the HM on Saturday. It really gave me confidence that the training and the plan are working for me and I didn't feel banjaxed this week. In fact it just made me really excited for the real thing, I hope the experience is just as good.

    However as I am using Hal Higdon Novice 1, you are all more than likely on higher mileage anyway hence the tiredness.


  • #5177
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    REVIEW AND WEEK AHEAD


    My flapjack recipe....I'll have to kill you root it out from somewhere deep in murph's log I think.....Can't go too wrong with oats, real butter, syrup and brown sugar anyway!

    Thanks Dubgal for posting & Murph for putting down log great read very insightful, better than some books I have read. Can really see benefit of
    log to see past & present training. I know MurphD has gone on to break
    most of records again since, so good to know there may still be progression
    from here.

    also Helen post on blowing up on big day. Have to say I have been at couple sessions where group training for different Races, any where from
    3hr to 4hr Marathon & some only training for up to half only, and you go
    with flow, so it has been good to get counter here from Dubgal,FBOT,Meno
    and Clearlier and more who pop in.

    I started with 1.50 pacers on Saturday & passed some club mates that started with much faster groups and seemed to be struggling a bit, where
    I felt had lots left as race went on, so slower run's in training defiantly helps.

    So all in all I think that for us Novice runners with little mileage,have had
    really good guidance here, hopefully we will emerge more confident & self aware runners, not afraid to paddle our own canoe. As I have seen even
    Runners coming back from Injury getting straight back to these sessions.

    Don't get me wrong, as I think Club & people are fantastic and really encouraging, but most runners are really experienced and I suppose like
    every thing you do all the time, you can assume sure can't everyone. most of guys have 1000's of hours & may Marathon cycles under belt so have
    huge endurance and reserves built up.

    anyway starting to ramble so I'll finish with big thanks again:)


  • #5178
    chrislad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,324 ✭✭✭chrislad


    Phoebas wrote: »
    After all of this recent slow running (honestly :)), it was nice to be able to race something substantial.

    If you've done 4 runs since the HM, then you've probably run 4 days in a row, so feeling a bit shattered wouldn't be unexpected.
    You'll be shattered this time next week too after following a HM with 4 runs and then a 20 mile lsr (depending on your plan) and then another 4 more runs.

    Look on the bright side - there's only about a hundred miles to go to the start of the marathon. :eek: I think I need to lie down for a bit now

    I'm following the boards plan, so it was 2 on Sunday, 4 on Monday followed by 8 Wed and 5 today, with the 20 miles on Saturday. It's going to be a fun 10 days ahead. Roll on the taper! :D


  • #5179
    wolfyboy555
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭wolfyboy555


    Not a good week for me this week. I felt a pain in my knee the last few km for the half marathon and it was quite sore and stiff on the Sunday. The pain eased off on Monday and I felt grand Tuesday so went out for a run. About 200m in I could feel it niggle again so abondoned the run. Tried again this evening and about 1km in I felt it again so decided to stop again.

    From my symptoms I think it's a case of "runners knee". Anyone have experience of this? Is my best bet just to rest? I am due a 14mile LSR this Sunday.


  • #5180
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    It's very very normal to feel rubbish the week after racing a half. It takes a a lot out of the body but can be very beneficial in Marathon training in terms of setting a goal for the Marathon, long race practise and learning to push the body. It will also have a very beneficial training impact (although that will take a few weeks to sink in).
    So basically it's important to be patient and while you shouldn't need to miss any runs, you should really listen to the body and run them very very slowly much slower than normal. You'll find your legs improving day by day and that your pace will gradually get back to normal.

    So Don't panic, it will all come good!


  • #5181
    hupskip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭hupskip


    wolfyboy555 wrote: »
    Not a good week for me this week. I felt a pain in my knee the last few km for the half marathon and it was quite sore and stiff on the Sunday. The pain eased off on Monday and I felt grand Tuesday so went out for a run. About 200m in I could feel it niggle again so abondoned the run. Tried again this evening and about 1km in I felt it again so decided to stop again.

    From my symptoms I think it's a case of "runners knee". Anyone have experience of this? Is my best bet just to rest? I am due a 14mile LSR this Sunday.

    Im in the same boat as you, got to mile 8 of the HM and the knee acted up so had to walk every now and again as the pain was unbearable.

    Went to the doctor and he advised me not to go ahead with the full marathon. Even to day its still sore. Don't know whether or not to just rest for a week or two and hopefully it will settle down or just abandon the full completely.


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  • #5182
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    hupskip wrote: »
    Im in the same boat as you, got to mile 8 of the HM and the knee acted up so had to walk every now and again as the pain was unbearable.

    Went to the doctor and he advised me not to go ahead with the full marathon. Even to day its still sore. Don't know whether or not to just rest for a week or two and hopefully it will settle down or just abandon the full completely.

    If I were you I'd go to see a physio, specifically a physio/physical therapist with some background in running.
    GPs are great but they are 'jacks of all trades' and they really wouldn't have a lot of training in sports injuries. Their knee jerk reactio tends to be to tell you to stop running.


  • #5183
    hupskip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭hupskip


    menoscemo wrote: »
    If I were you I'd go to see a physio, specifically a physio/physical therapist with some background in running.
    GPs are great but they are 'jacks of all trades' and they really wouldn't have a lot of training in sports injuries. Their knee jerk reactio tends to be to tell you to stop running.

    Yeah I think I might just get a physio who will have me in the best possible shape for the full and just try and struggle through it.


  • #5184
    wolfyboy555
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭wolfyboy555


    hupskip wrote: »
    Im in the same boat as you, got to mile 8 of the HM and the knee acted up so had to walk every now and again as the pain was unbearable.

    Went to the doctor and he advised me not to go ahead with the full marathon. Even to day its still sore. Don't know whether or not to just rest for a week or two and hopefully it will settle down or just abandon the full completely.


    That doesn't sound good. I don't feel injured at all though. From Monday onwards I felt grand walking bending the knee etc. I might rest it until Sunday and give a slow run ago. I have the 20next weekend so definitely want to be ready for that.


  • #5185
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    wolfyboy555 wrote: »
    That doesn't sound good. I don't feel injured at all though. From Monday onwards I felt grand walking bending the knee etc. I might rest it until Sunday and give a slow run ago. I have the 20next weekend so definitely want to be ready for that.
    wolfyboy if not really sore try warming knee before trying short run,
    Can help. Other than that as meno said better safe & get checked out.
    Obviously I am not expert, but if u can't knock out mile or two before
    Weekend, unlikely you'll just be able to run 20.

    Hope nothing serious though. Best of luck


  • #5186
    diego_b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭diego_b


    Oddest run ever but 5 miles done! First 2-3 miles I felt quite stiff and tight all over the place. Focused on trying to get my knees up a bit more (my normal easy pace looks more like shuffling with very low lift) and viola after 3 miles it just all eased out. Feel better now that I did before the run and stairs are all good again. Could actually feel my gluts possibly for the first time ever on a run, so odd!


  • #5187
    Singer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    I did 13 miles yesterday with 10 miles at MP (well, maybe a small bit faster) and a leisurely 9 mile run commute home today (bang on easy pace). My run commutes have been more miss than hit. I've had small bit of left shoulder/upper back pain which pops up in some runs, and running with a bag on my back seems to make it worse. Kind of a case of "doctor, it hurts when I do this". I invested in a nice running bag with lots of support, straps etc. but I still ended up with some pain today. I might just start leaving the laptop in work for future run commutes, and maybe I should break my physio duck... I generally don't enjoy running at that time of the day, I'm more tired straight after work (and before dinner) compared to running in the morning or later on in the evening. It's pretty handy to get a run commute in if my wife's heading out or whatever though.

    In other news, somewhere around Dorset St. I passed 1000 miles run in 2015 :D


  • #5188
    healy1835
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭healy1835


    Was just having a goo at the course map.....what pray tell is a 'Renault Pit Stop'?? Toilets?


  • #5189
    Emsy 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭Emsy 1


    If you had asked me on Saturday did I regret doing the half I would 100% have said yes. The last two miles where torturous I felt deflated because I couldn't keep up with the 2 hrs pacers. I had experienced this on my previous half and I was convinced with all the training,eating well and being hydrated that this wouldn't happen again, but unfortunately it did (WHY!!). Now a few days on I'm thinking I've learned from it I now am not going for a time I will enjoy the experience soak up the atmosphere and be able to say to my grandkids that I ran a marathon ...Yolo.


  • #5190
    denis b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    Singer wrote: »
    I did 13 miles yesterday with 10 miles at MP (well, maybe a small bit faster) and a leisurely 9 mile run commute home today (bang on easy pace). My run commutes have been more miss than hit. I've had small bit of left shoulder/upper back pain which pops up in some runs, and running with a bag on my back seems to make it worse. Kind of a case of "doctor, it hurts when I do this". I invested in a nice running bag with lots of support, straps etc. but I still ended up with some pain today. I might just start leaving the laptop in work for future run commutes, and maybe I should break my physio duck... I generally don't enjoy running at that time of the day, I'm more tired straight after work (and before dinner) compared to running in the morning or later on in the evening. It's pretty handy to get a run commute in if my wife's heading out or whatever though.

    In other news, somewhere around Dorset St. I passed 1000 miles run in 2015 :D

    Caught you today just at Dublin Airport and beeped, rather than wolf whistle!! Fair play, not easy immediately after a days work. I would definitely dump the laptop for the commute.


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  • #5191
    Singer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    denis b wrote: »
    Caught you today just at Dublin Airport and beeped, rather than wolf whistle!! Fair play, not easy immediately after a days work. I would definitely dump the laptop for the commute.

    Oh, cool :) I noticed the beep but didn't hear exactly where it came from! (I may have been listening to a Second Captains podcast at the time...)


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