Suicide

questionmark? wrote: »

It's caused by a horrible disease. One that you generally can't see.

Great post and the kind of thing everyone needs to be saying and hearing more often - even the choir - to the point it normalises these facts and people simply know it like they know the sun will rise.

That said not all suicide is caused by depression. Some are from desperation in a cruel world. And some are a simple choice. The closest suicide to me for example was a childhood friend who in his late 20s received a medical diagnosis that meant a steady decline once symptoms presented and once they presented he made the peaceful decision to go out of life with all his faculties and dignity intact - and at his own behest not at the mercy of a progressive illness.

Now I am quick to point out I am not expressing my opinion on the merits or demerits of that decision - or whether I would make the same one or not myself - but there is a wealth of motivation for suicide out there and if we are to tackle it as a problem over all - the full range of motivations for it have to be addressed too. Likely by better people than I.

As another user wrote - the financial barriers to obtain certain levels of support is certainly one area that could be improved.

Mother Brain wrote: »

In fact many times I have felt that such a large taboo exists around depression and suicide is that nobody really wants to consider the proposition that depression is a legitimate response to the experience of life. That if we were all to be bit more honest about it, we could probably concede that there is some validity to that claim.

I think you might be in danger of conflating many different meanings behind the world depression. What you describe is a kind of existential downer response from the vagaries of existence. And sure - many people find the harder things in life difficult to deal with - or impossible - or they can only attain it using some placebo crutch like religion or the like.

And of course it can be hard for many of us to get into the head space of anyone suffering from that. Even though I was very much myself in the lowest depths of what you describe at one point in my life - and clawed myself out of it slowly by various methods - I still have to struggle NOW to get back into the head space to understand what the kind of people you describe are going through - simply because I am at a point where I am enjoying life greatly and suffering from little or no downsides.

But there also very much is medical depression too which is entirely distinct from what you describe. Chemical or hormonal imbalances that simply preclude any possibility of a normal quality of emotional life. And while we have had some successes with various medical assistances to this - they are - relative to the scale of the issue - a small skirmish victory in a greater war.

kylith wrote: »

I can't believe people would put such pressure on their kids that those kids think that death is better than living with their parents' disappointment.

Indeed. I would hate to put such pressure on my own kids but I similarly do not want to put NO pressure on them either. So from age 3 with my daughter I began to sell her the narrative of doing HER best and nothing more. That this is the standard she has to go by.

And it seems to work. She is 5 now and she tries hard at everything she does but when she fails or it does not work out - she does not (often) get frustrated or angry or down. And when she does I simply ask her "Did you try the best you could?" and when she says yes I simply reply "Then that is what matters - not whether it worked or not - and when you try again youll find you will do even better next time" and she almost invariably does.

But I can imagine the effect of external goals on young kids - you must attain these results - you must do as well as this person or this group - you must excel in the crowd - and so on and so forth. It certainly would not be the parenting path I would choose anyway - I will leave it to others to openly critique those that do

Penny Tration wrote: »

Then the counselling. I waited eight weeks for that. The counsellor told me I should look to God for guidance. She told me I was wrong to not believe in god and that everyone believes in god. I saw her once every two months.

Wow is that even LEGAL? Did you report her in some way to find out? Not only should it not be legal - to my mind - to use such a doctor-patient relationship to sell religion to the vulnerable - it is also medically questionable to take someone suffering from suicidal tendencies and start telling them "Because you do not do X - you are different to everyone else". Such a line of spew from a medical professional is going to EXACERBATE the suffering and feeling of loneliness and alienation of the patient. Not help it. In even the smallest way.

And it sets them up for failure too. Many of us who do not believe in god do so because there is no reason or evidence to. We can not simply choose to believe in one. We are simply incapable of doing so because there is no way to. So a patient given the "advice" you were could go off and really really try to believe - utterly fail - and that failure TOO will add to the downward spiral they are on.

So basically this "doctor" was selling you a line of nonsense designed to alienate you further from the rest of society AND set you up for failures which will lead you to depression. Although I do not generally wish ill or misfortune on many people - there is a special category reserved in my brain where I do - and such a "doctor" sits squarely in it.

mickstupp wrote: »

But people who are depressed and suicidal often feel like an imposition anyway!

One of the things I hear most often after a suicide is "I never thought it would be HIM - he was so full of life and energy".

What often happens however - especially with mania and some other conditions - is that the victim lives at extremes. When they are on a "high" this is when they get out of bed and go into the world. So this is the persona people meet - know - learn - and love.

The insidious nature of these conditions however is when they hit their "lows" they disappear and no one sees them. So no one sees this side of them. So everyone remains unaware there is even an issue much of the time. Hence their shock when this happy energetic person they love dies - that it would be them.

Are there patterns there people could learn - or be taught - and watch for? I do not know - I have 10 or less anecdotes to build on which is nothing - but I am sure some research must exist.

Is there some way to look at the most lively and energetic people in our lives and notice that they suddenly drop out of all contact or visibility from time to time - and hence ask ourselves some "What ifs?" or "maybes?" and find a way to check in on them? I dunno. I doubt it is that simple. But one can hope.

But as you say - when people hit the downers they not only disappear - they also hit a confluence of emotions that will not allow them to seek help. Because they do not feel worth helping. Or they see asking for help as an imposition on others that they do not deserve to make. Or they see even the condition of needing help as a pathetic weakness in itself. And so on. And it adds to the spiral.

DivingDuck wrote: »

There's generally also an increased expectation for joy in life these days, owing to a greater exposure to wealth via standard (constant reporting on the jetset lives of reality stars and celebrities) and social (heavily edited FB feeds only showing the positives in life) media. Couple this with the stigma of mental health issues and the lack of ready availability of services and it's frankly only surprising that the figures aren't higher.

To this I would also add the increasingly insular nature of our society. Many people - especially people who are single - wake up in the bubble that is their home alone. They go to work in the bubble that is their car. They work in the bubble that is their desk or post. Then they repeat it all in reverse before ending up in bed again.

Despite the increase in populations - and the compression of people into smaller spaces - I sometimes feel that on a person to person basis we are getting FURTHER away from our fellow humans - even while getting physically closer. And as Kermit said in a post above - a lot of our interactions in the modern world come over the Internet which removes many layers of reality and genuine contact from the equation.