Suicide

kylith · 14-09-2015 10:49AM

I've a relative who works with the Samaritans and they said that there's always a spike in calls from suicidal teens around this time of year because of exam results. Fcking exam results! Their parents have put such pressure on them to do amazingly that they freak out when they're afraid they haven't measured up to their parents' expectations. I can't believe people would put such pressure on their kids that those kids think that death is better than living with their parents' disappointment.

Diamond Doll · 14-09-2015 11:00AM

kylith wrote: »

I've a relative who works with the Samaritans and they said that there's always a spike in calls from suicidal teens around this time of year because of exam results. Fcking exam results! Their parents have put such pressure on them to do amazingly that they freak out when they're afraid they haven't measured up to their parents' expectations. I can't believe people would put such pressure on their kids that those kids think that death is better than living with their parents' disappointment.

On the flipside though, I really feel for parents of kids who might kill themselves after getting exam results, and the parents end up blaming themselves. When it often isn't necessarily the case that the parents put any excessive pressure on. Depression tends to be far more deeply rooted than that.

Penny Tration · 14-09-2015 11:09AM

From my own experience of mental health services through public health, this is how it goes -

A caveat first - I was a 'high risk' patient. So high risk that I could only collect my medication daily in case I killed myself with an overdose.

I waited three months for an appointment with a psychiatrist. Three fcuking months.

After that, I was seen every three months. With a different psychiatrist each time. So every three months, I had to repeat everything I'd been asked in my initial assessment, instead of actually progressing. Because of this bollocks, it took three years to get a diagnosis. Three years of being given meds that didn't work, because I didn't actually have depression.

Then the counselling. I waited eight weeks for that. The counsellor told me I should look to God for guidance. She told me I was wrong to not believe in god and that everyone believes in god. I saw her once every two months.

Then, after finally scraping the money together, my family and I could afford for me to go private. I saw the psychiatric registrar monthly. I eventually got a proper diagnosis (bi-polar and anxiety, not depression that I'd been told I had for three years).

He referred me to a non profit organisation called Target. I received weekly therapy. The therapist accepted that I don't believe in a god and so didn't bring spiritual crap into it.

The problem is, to get proper treatment without a three month waiting list, I had to pay 130 euro per session to the psychiatrist.

It shouldn't be so bloody difficult to get help. If someone who's considered a serious suicide risk had to wait months, what the hell is gonna happen with those who aren't such high risk patients?

Until the mental health treatment system is made efficient and helpful, this suicide epidemic will continue

Chemical Byrne · 14-09-2015 11:11AM

folamh wrote: »

How awful.

<snip>

That's not the first time I've had to cut someone down either. Another time I and a few others were working on a house to house survey for a city council in the south. It was a somewhat deprived area of housing. We were working our way along the street and a teenage girl ran out into the street shouting help, help, <snip> The three of us managed to cut him down and he began to come to and we called the ambulance who came and took him away. The daughter was in a bad state and went with him.
Then at about 6pm that evening we were driving back through town and who did we meet coming against us with a few bags of cans and pissed drunk only yer man we rescued earlier. On his way home for another night on the dutch gold.

Penny Tration · 14-09-2015 11:15AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

<snip>

I'm sorry you and your friend had to go through that, it sounds horrific.

The second story sounds really odd though. A suicide attempt results in a minimum 72 hour assessment in a psychiatric unit generally. Very odd that he'd be let out that very day

14-09-2015 11:17AM

Mod

Please guys, refrain from posting details of suicides on this thread. Not only is it traumatic for others to read, it goes against the guidelines set out by the samaritans in relation to suicide.

Please be respectful.

Chemical Byrne · 14-09-2015 11:17AM

I don't know, perhaps he signed himself out?
We were certainly gobsmacked to see him again.

folamh · 14-09-2015 11:18AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

We were working our way along the street and a teenage girl ran out into the street shouting help, help, <snip> The three of us managed to cut him down and he began to come to and we called the ambulance who came and took him away. The daughter was in a bad state and went with him.
Then at about 6pm that evening we were driving back through town and who did we meet coming against us with a few bags of cans and pissed drunk only yer man we rescued earlier. On his way home for another night on the dutch gold.

I saw the previous incarnation of your post

RDM_83 again · 14-09-2015 11:19AM

I'm with joeytheparrot that suicide isn't always to do with depression, it doesn't make sense statistically with the higher depression rates in women but vastly higher male suicide rates, the standard reply to this is that women choose different methods and so have more survival however perhaps we should look at suicide differently to suicide attempt, the latter being a desperate cry for help. It sounds like a horrible thing to say but unless somebody is being watched or isn't able bodied they can find a method that will certainly end their life, why is there this difference. I think the dialogue about this is understandably like this because Jane that was suffering depression and used pills is here to talk about it, whereas Jack who may or may not have been suffering depression (we dont know) used a rope or a car and can't tell us why

The destigmatization thing has been harmful as well as others have pointed out about guidelines, and there is now a body of research about suicide clustering. IMO its not simply that we record more accurately there has been a genuine increase.

It seems odd but if its about men being open about ones feelings why was it lower in the past when there was much more repression of emotion.
Personally I think its more to do with people (particularly young mens) lack of a place in the world and disposability (this can be seen in the comparative lack of resources to death toll, we should have active suicide prevention at hotspots around the country and it would likely save more lives than the hundreds of speed traps)

Anyhow thats all just my personal opinion and is not intended to be dismissive of those that suffer depression or have been impacted by suicide (which is basically any younger person in Ireland unfortunately :-\ )

Penny Tration · 14-09-2015 11:21AM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I don't know, perhaps he signed himself out?
We were certainly gobsmacked to see him again.

You can't. The 72 hour admission is involuntary. You can only sign yourself out after.

Either he managed to lie through his teeth, or the system failed him.

folamh · 14-09-2015 11:47AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

It seems odd but if its about men being open about ones feelings why was it lower in the past when there was much more repression of emotion.

-Religious beliefs about the immorality of suicide.
-Less exposure to the horrors of the world.
-Less knowledge of how to commit suicide and accessibility of tools.
-Less pressure on young people to follow a certain course in life.

kylith · 14-09-2015 11:51AM

folamh wrote: »

-Religious beliefs about the immorality of suicide.
-Less exposure to the horrors of the world.
-Less knowledge of how to commit suicide and accessibility of tools.
-Less pressure on young people to follow a certain course in life.

More suicides reported as 'accidents' because of both the stigma attached and the fact that suicides couldn't be buried in consecrated ground.

whatdoicare · 14-09-2015 11:51AM

I think as well, theres just a huge lack of help for people. Proper help, not just ringing a helpline.

I have a relative who is mentally ill and has been for a very long time, she had made numerous attempts at taking her own life. Its always, always the same treatment, the few days in 5B and put her on meds and off you go now. No further help offered.

There is zero contact with the family, no group therapy, noone knows exactly what medication shes on or if she needs us or if she has anywhere to go for further treatment - they really dont want family involved at all and unless the patient wants to share then family is largely kept in the dark. Its very much a patch em up and ship them out job. Or as her sister says, press the reset button and wait for the next episode in a few months.

Even for alcoholics, treatment is always family therapy - so why not for those with mental health issues??

Even myself, when I had my baby, about five minutes before I was discharged, some random nurse came up and asked me was I feeling depressed and of course, I said no. She ticked the box and off she went. Job done. Like, I was really going to be able to assess if I was okay while completely shell shocked and left with a raw infant. No further enquiry as to my mental health after that but its drilled into us that new mams are so susceptible to psd and ptsd but noone is checking them properly.

Mental health services here are totally inadequate.

RDM_83 again · 14-09-2015 11:55AM

folamh wrote: »

-Less exposure to the horrors of the world.

I can agree with the other points but is that true? Think of my fathers side of the family and members fighting in the world wars, think of my mothers and people emigrating that they would expect to never see again or getting TB or the Spanish flu.

folamh · 14-09-2015 11:57AM

whatdoicare wrote: »

I have a relative who is mentally ill and has been for a very long time, she had made numerous attempts at taking her own life. Its always, always the same treatment, the few days in 5B and put her on meds and off you go now. No further help offered.

There is zero contact with the family, no group therapy, noone knows exactly what medication shes on or if she needs us or if she has anywhere to go for further treatment - they really dont want family involved at all and unless the patient wants to share then family is largely kept in the dark. Its very much a patch em up and ship them out job. Or as her sister says, press the reset button and wait for the next episode in a few months.

Even for alcoholics, treatment is always family therapy - so why not for those with mental health issues??

How much should the patient's own autonomy be limited, though?

I'm sorry for your relative's pain.

folamh · 14-09-2015 12:01PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I can agree with the other points but is that true? Think of my fathers side of the family and members fighting in the world wars, think of my mothers and people emigrating that they would expect to never see again or getting TB or the Spanish flu.

I mean more in the sense of how modern media exposes people to horrors constantly and in detail. Before mass media, your horrors were largely limited to your own life experience and what you heard in the daily news/radio.

14-09-2015 12:06PM

It's a problem globally. Men are three times more likely to commit suicide than women, but it's just something that isn't being addressed as much as it should. Culturally we need to change our viewpoint as men, to see and acknowledge that it's OK to talk and that it should be encouraged.

whatdoicare · 14-09-2015 12:09PM

folamh wrote: »

How much should the patient's own autonomy be limited, though?

I'm sorry for your relative's pain.

Well that's it, it should really be assessed one on one, if they are violent to themselves or others. Then family should be involved.

My relative is both and is very destructive to her own life and to her family members lives. She recently tried to burn down her parents house.

Her family have no idea if her doctors are even aware of any of that, they are going by what the patient is saying and sure, she could be telling them anything.

I think that there should be far more communication happening.

folamh · 14-09-2015 12:11PM

Isn't it the case that if a patient shows intent to harm herself or others, then mental health professionals have to inform the family?

whatdoicare · 14-09-2015 12:14PM

folamh wrote: »

Isn't it the case that if a patient shows intent to harm herself or others, then mental health professionals have to inform the family?

Nope, from what I've seen, they do not.

RDM_83 again · 14-09-2015 12:34PM

kylith wrote: »

More suicides reported as 'accidents' because of both the stigma attached and the fact that suicides couldn't be buried in consecrated ground.

True historically it was very under reported due to Church influence but is the increase just down to this IMO no, had a better explanation for why i think so due to the stats posted before but can't find it because on phone
ps dont mean this in standard AH combative/argumentative way and its simply my opinion that may well be wrong

Its still under recorded anyway as certain as one can be about these things friend committed suicide but it went down as misadventure, its understandable in a way because it is a comfort to the family, on the less certain know of car "accidents" that were likely it too.

Agree completely with other posters in failings of mental health services without blaming those that work in a stressful difficult under resourced area.

On the wider point while its really important to provide a social support network to those in need, as someone that is untrained and (thankfully) fairly limited experience your sort of powerless to do more than to be there and encourage them to seek help.

I'm curious if others consider excessive solitary drinking as being something that may contribute.
Mixing to much time in your own head, alcohol and a negative mental state.

ps if this thread is going to stay open on AH perhaps it would be good to put a mod note in the OP linking to helplines etc

Dirty Dingus McGee · 14-09-2015 01:29PM

One of my school friends killed himself a couple of years ago.

I've never understood the stigma around suicide.In some ways it must the best way to die as you choose to it yourself and aren't being dragged kicking and screaming out of life.

Kimbot · 14-09-2015 01:38PM

When I was going through hell with my mental illness my GP just kept prescribing pills until I had a bad breakdown and my family got involved and brought me to hospital. I went into the nurse on my own and told them everything start to finish and once I was done the nurse asked who was with me (I thought I was been signed in at this point) and when I told them my mam they asked would it be ok to talk to her etc. I'm actually very glad they spoke to my mam as it really helped me in recovering. Anytime I had been back to the hopspital my mam has been involved and knows exactly whats going on with me. Now im not sure if hospitals do this across the board but the one I went to involved my family.

folamh · 14-09-2015 02:23PM

I suspect that Wales has similar problems to rural Ireland.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/rate-suicides-among-men-wales-8677363

Men aged 45 to 49 had the highest rates at 46.5 per 100,000, up nearly three-quarters in a year.

Penny Tration · 14-09-2015 02:52PM

whatdoicare wrote: »

Nope, from what I've seen, they do not.

They're legally obliged to report to next of kin if they believe the person is a serious, genuine threat to the safety of themselves or others. However, he could be hiding that very well from his psychiatric team.

Wompa1 · 14-09-2015 05:07PM

I'm a complete cynic when it comes to psychologists that work in Academia or Research BUT we do have a sh1t tonne of qualified clinical psychologists. It's high time we invest more in getting counseling services for those in need.

I was back in the west of Ireland this week with the rain one of the days. I liked it. Then night fell. It's so dark out in the shticks and then that's compounded with the rain. Throw that together with the cold in the winter. I'd say for somebody feeling a bit down, that could be a dangerous cocktail. We're also not the best at talking about our problems. I think counseling services becoming widespread and normal could make a big difference with that.

FalconGirl · 14-09-2015 05:17PM

Suicide numbers in Ireland are far to high, probably one of the highest in the world. A phenomenal number are not recorded as suicide but rather car accidents etc.

I believe social pressures of living in Ireland have a lot to do with it. Our fondness of alcohol which is a massive depressant, we can be quite begrudging also, the economic downturn, personal debt levels like having crazy mortgages and loans etc amongst other things are just some examples. There is no doubt about it a darkness covers the Island.

I'm saying this 7 weeks after burying my father who took his own life. Not the first in the family to do it but hopefully the last. I heard of 5 others the week my father died. As well as that there are 4 teenagers buried a few plots down from him that went to school together and took their own lives within weeks of one another. All doing their Leaving Cert.

The numbers are just too High!!! FFS its a national emergency at this stage.

mickstupp · 14-09-2015 08:11PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The destigmatization thing has been harmful as well ...

I utterly fail to see either a) how destigmatisation is harmful, or indeed b) where the destigmatisation actually is.

I look around me and do not see any destigmatisation. I see lots of awareness, I see the relevant words and phrases being used more often in the media, and online, and in leaflets at the doctor's, but that does not equate to destigmatisation. I see lots of apparently kind-hearted people talking about opening up, about letting those in distress speak and be heard. But when it comes down to it, when people really need help, my experience does not involve destigmatisation.

What you get is people hearing about depression and mental illnesses and thinking 'I can help! I'll be there for whichever of my friends needs me'. And people will say the actual words 'I'm there for you, whenever you need me'. But now that I think about it, 'whenever' probably shouldn't be Sunday cause I'm watching the match, and actually I'm kinda busy on Tuesday too, dinner with the missus on Wednesday, could we maybe push it out to Friday?

So although people may say they'll be there, may even believe they'll be there, their actions make liars out of them quite a lot of the time. And before you know it there's a new stigma. See, you start to realise that when people say they'll be there, they actually mean, when it suits them, when they're free. So before you know it you've gone a week, two weeks, more, just waiting for the person who said they'd help you. And all the time you're getting worse. And what you really learn is that although people say they'll be there, and listen, you probably shouldn't ask for help, because asking for help makes you an imposition on others.

But people who are depressed and suicidal often feel like an imposition anyway! You feel in your darkest moments that you're a burden on everyone you care about, everyone around you... so why they hell would you then go and ask for help from someone who's clearly busy and has their own lives and concerns?

The answer is you don't bother. You learn to smile and nod and understand that although people say they care, and they'll be there, they don't really mean it, even though they think they do. This country is full of wonderful words and little or no action.

I consider myself a fairly rational individual, even though I've suffered from depression for most of my life at this stage. But even considering myself rational, I'm affected by it too. I have this mental block in me, that prevents me from saying anything about how hard things may be. Sure everyone says awareness is increased, but that's not enough. As an example I only now feel I can talk to my doctor about how bad I was feeling two months ago. I couldn't do it then. I couldn't tell my family or friends then. Because there's already a stigma. There's Mick, bit off his rocker, can't really take care of himself. Treat him with kid gloves, now.

You don't say to your family or friends that you hate waking up more than anything in the world. You don't tell them that you break down in tears at a moment's notice. You say... 'Yeah, not feeling great', and you leave it at that, if even that. Because you don't want to worry them. You don't want to be an imposition. A burden. Because the people who you should be asking for help are reaching out and saying they'll be there, and they clearly think they mean it. How are they to know or understand that actually they don't? And god forbid you call them on it. The outrage, the indignation, the assurances that they'll be there. But not on Saturday, bit busy you know, and the kids have their class on Monday night, so not then either.

Whether or not people agree with the above... Everyone needs to change. Not just the people who suffer from mental illnesses. It's not just us who need to reach out and be open and somehow get over our fear of talking. Everyone else needs to change too. You need to be there if you say you'll be there. Not next week or next month, but the second your friend or brother or cousin or girlfriend reaches out, you need to be there. And you need to listen even if it sounds like meaningless tripe. Everyone needs to change, and they need to stop pretending that just throwing words around is somehow enough. Actions have far more meaning to a mentally distressed person than words that almost inevitably turn out to be a waste of air.

Mean what you say.

---

tl;dr - destigmatisation me hole.

Mam of 4 · 14-09-2015 08:26PM

mickstupp wrote: »

I utterly fail to see either a) how destigmatisation is harmful, or indeed b) where the destigmatisation actually is.

I look around me and do not see any destigmatisation. I see lots of awareness, I see the relevant words and phrases being used more often in the media, and online, and in leaflets at the doctor's, but that does not equate to destigmatisation. I see lots of apparently kind-hearted people talking about opening up, about letting those in distress speak and be heard. But when it comes down to it, when people really need help, my experience does not involve destigmatisation.

What you get is people hearing about depression and mental illnesses and thinking 'I can help! I'll be there for whichever of my friends needs me'. And people will say the actual words 'I'm there for you, whenever you need me'. But now that I think about it, 'whenever' probably shouldn't be Sunday cause I'm watching the match, and actually I'm kinda busy on Tuesday too, dinner with the missus on Wednesday, could we maybe push it out to Friday?

So although people may say they'll be there, may even believe they'll be there, their actions make liars out of them quite a lot of the time. And before you know it there's a new stigma. See, you start to realise that when people say they'll be there, they actually mean, when it suits them, when they're free. So before you know it you've gone a week, two weeks, more, just waiting for the person who said they'd help you. And all the time you're getting worse. And what you really learn is that although people say they'll be there, and listen, you probably shouldn't ask for help, because asking for help makes you an imposition on others.

But people who are depressed and suicidal often feel like an imposition anyway! You feel in your darkest moments that you're a burden on everyone you care about, everyone around you... so why they hell would you then go and ask for help from someone who's clearly busy and has their own lives and concerns?

The answer is you don't bother. You learn to smile and nod and understand that although people say they care, and they'll be there, they don't really mean it, even though they think they do. This country is full of wonderful words and little or no action.

I consider myself a fairly rational individual, even though I've suffered from depression for most of my life at this stage. But even considering myself rational, I'm affected by it too. I have this mental block in me, that prevents me from saying anything about how hard things may be. Sure everyone says awareness is increased, but that's not enough. As an example I only now feel I can talk to my doctor about how bad I was feeling two months ago. I couldn't do it then. I couldn't tell my family or friends then. Because there's already a stigma. There's Mick, bit off his rocker, can't really take care of himself. Treat him with kid gloves, now.

You don't say to your family or friends that you hate waking up more than anything in the world. You don't tell them that you break down in tears at a moment's notice. You say... 'Yeah, not feeling great', and you leave it at that, if even that. Because you don't want to worry them. You don't want to be an imposition. A burden. Because the people who you should be asking for help are reaching out and saying they'll be there, and they clearly think they mean it. How are they to know or understand that actually they don't? And god forbid you call them on it. The outrage, the indignation, the assurances that they'll be there. But not on Saturday, bit busy you know, and the kids have their class on Monday night, so not then either.

Whether or not people agree with the above... Everyone needs to change. Not just the people who suffer from mental illnesses. It's not just us who need to reach out and be open and somehow get over our fear of talking. Everyone else needs to change too. You need to be there if you say you'll be there. Not next week or next month, but the second your friend or brother or cousin or girlfriend reaches out, you need to be there. And you need to listen even if it sounds like meaningless tripe. Everyone needs to change, and they need to stop pretending that just throwing words around is somehow enough. Actions have far more meaning to a mentally distressed person than words that almost inevitably turn out to be a waste of air.

Mean what you say.

---

tl;dr - destigmatisation me hole.

Thank you for such an honest post. Hope one day it gets even a little easier.

ToddyDoody · 14-09-2015 08:32PM

"Any careful consideration of life entails reflections of death, and the confrontation with reality means facing mortality. We never come fully to grips with life until we are willing to wrestle with death. We need not postulate a death drive nor need we speculate about death and it's place in the scheme of things to make a simple point: every deep and complex concern, whether in oneself or with another, has in it the problem of death. And the problem of death is posed most vividly in suicide. No-where else is death so near. If we want to move towards self-knowledge and the experience of reality, then an enquiry into suicide becomes the first step."

(opening paragraph of 'Suicide and the Soul' by James Hillman. Written in Glencullen House in Co. Dublin, incidentally)

Suicide

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