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US Journalists shot dead live on air [MOD WARNING in opening post]

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Comments

  • #242
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Surely. But you didn't answer my thought experiment except with a question. Try again.

    It's to show that if you believe there's motivation in something, then it's there. There's a thing, though, called appropriate response. The appropriate response, if you take umbrage at a slur, is probably not to shoot two people. I think, when you get to that stage, there are bigger personal issues at play. So a person can believe that racial motivations were a factor, but I think the bigger motivations were that he was, or became, a disgruntled nutter. To talk about racial motivations, is to talk about the vastly lesser side of the equation, and the trivialize the whole thing somewhat.


  • #243
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    On the live stream they refuse to comment on a Racial component.

    And why do you think that is?


  • #244
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    seamus wrote: »
    When you have zero social supports for poor people, a health system that only serves the upper 20%, a for-profit education system and absolutely no individual protections in employment law, it's inevitable that the have-nots will increasingly become violent because they have nothing left to lose.

    Yes, those middle class students who were so annoyed at their own virginity had nothing left to lose decided to shoot up a school because........ they couldn't get a job/welfare -- wait what?? It doesn't hold up.

    "Have-nots" resort to crime (often violent crime) to make ends meet, yes. But the mass shooters are rarely from an impoverished background.

    The causes of mass shootings are complex, but they often stem from an entitlement complex that the world owes them something -- usually something beyond money like recognition & attention. They feel they've been held back in life from not being noticed and they lash out violently.

    Some of the shooters were bullied victims, others were entitled brats who wanted vengeance because their peers didn't realise how 'special' they were. Sometimes a sad combination of both.


  • #245
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Does it matter if is racially motivated? A deranged man was still deranged. Is this race thing being mentioned by way of explanation? Because it explains nothing. The colour of these poor people could be completely irrelevant to why he did it.


  • #246
    AnonBoard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 ✭AnonBoard


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    And why do you think that is?

    Doesn't fit the narrative they wish to promote


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  • #247
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Eh? They happened to be in his vicinity? Like this was some tragic accident?

    Race seems to be the main factor in this shooting.

    In that case, there has been some more developments. What I read suggested that he was fired from the station and resented it bitterly. He decided he wanted revenge and attacked a news broadcast. It happened to be that pair that were there.

    Now, he does seem to have been claiming racial discrimination against him, but he's pulled that before at another news-station he was fired from. So I, at least, am going to wait and see before pulling out the wahwahs of how life is so unfair for whites because blacks can't possibly be racist or whatever the rubbish going on is.


  • #248
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    briany wrote: »
    It's to show that if you believe there's motivation in something, then it's there. There's a thing, though, called appropriate response. The appropriate response, if you take umbrage at a slur, is probably not to shoot two people. I think, when you get to that stage, there are bigger personal issues at play. So a person can believe that racial motivations were a factor, but I think the bigger motivations were that he was, or became, a disgruntled nutter. To talk about racial motivations, is to talk about the vastly lesser side of the equation, and the trivialize the whole thing somewhat.

    Of course he was nuts. But most spree killers are probably nuts or psychotics. His internal motivation was racial grievance.


  • #249
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Samaris wrote: »
    In that case, there has been some more developments. What I read suggested that he was fired from the station and resented it bitterly. He decided he wanted revenge and attacked a news broadcast. It happened to be that pair that were there.

    Now, he does seem to have been claiming racial discrimination against him, but he's pulled that before at another news-station he was fired from. So I, at least, am going to wait and see before pulling out the wahwahs of how life is so unfair for whites because blacks can't possibly be racist or whatever the rubbish going on is.

    Your last sentence is a straw man. He accused the actual reporter he actually killed of racism. That was in the very first report I saw.


  • #250
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭conorhal


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    "Alison Made Racist comment" Shooters tweet.

    So did his former employer (that he unsuccessfully sued) and the people at his new job he also claimed abused him racially (but HR disagreed). It seems that all the ills in life that have befallen this guy are down to 'The Man'.

    Or

    He's a nutbag with a chip on his shoulder that was impossible to work with, an aggressive, delusional and narcissistic individual who blames everybody else for his failings.


  • #251
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    And why do you think that is?

    What does one think ? And on me saying it was not race related that's not what I said. I said there was no Racial bullying in this case as the shooter had tried that already and lost. That has nothing to do with the shooter being racially motivated.


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  • #252
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    Exactly my point. Darkpagendeath was on here a few pages back saying that racial/bullying comments had nothing to do with what happened. How could anyone have known that race had nothing to do with it. It could be many, many factors, including race and clear mental health problems.

    No actually read what I said.


  • #253
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Is there some sort of sign in the sky that brings the re-regs out when "black person" and "gun" are in the same thread?


  • #254
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    AnonBoard wrote: »
    Doesn't fit the narrative they wish to promote

    Yes, exactly. The last thing they want is a riot on their hands when people are highly emotional and angry/hurt.

    Not mentioning race on a live feed doesn't mean race had nothing to do with it. They will be choosing words very carefully.


  • #255
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    No actually read what I said.

    You said:

    No Racist bullying from what I have read it seems to have been fabricated by the shoote r.


  • #256
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Your last sentence is a straw man. He accused the actual reporter he actually killed of racism. That was in the very first report I saw.

    Not a straw-man precisely, I am pointing out that there's an awful lot of whinging and sarky comments about how -obviously- it won't be treated as a race crime because -obviously- black people can't be racist.

    Which is whiny rubbish. When I see a report that he shot those people dead because they're white and he had a particular grudge against whites in general, I will agree that it was a racist hate crime. For now, it seems to be a mentally deranged lunatic that wanted revenge against his ex-workplace and used "they were mean to me" as an unsubstantiated excuse for murder.


  • #257
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Of course he was nuts. But most spree killers are probably nuts or psychotics. His internal motivation was racial grievance.

    Racial grievance may have been his internal motivation, but if he was nuts, the validity of that becomes seriously questionable. You lose a lot of credibility when you act as he did. It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than John Hinckley's obsession with Jodie Foster being a motivator for his attempted assassination of Reagan.


  • #258
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    The man who killed women at the train wreck premier was a sexist. Mad but a sexist.

    Time to admit this was racially motivated. And white killings of blacks is racially motivated. And so on.

    Also #nonamericanlivesmatter

    I'll check my feed but I'm sure America has killed a few dozens today with drone attacks. It's 12000 or so since Obama came to office.


  • #259
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    The man who killed women at the train wreck premier was a sexist. Mad but a sexist.

    Time to admit this was racially motivated. And white killings of blacks is racially motivated. And so on.

    Also #nonamericanlivesmatter

    I'll check my feed but I'm sure America has killed a few dozens today with drone attacks. It's 12000 or so since Obama came to office.

    Now -that- is a straw man :P


  • #260
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Samaris wrote: »
    Not a straw-man precisely, I am pointing out that there's an awful lot of whinging and sarky comments about how -obviously- it won't be treated as a race crime because -obviously- black people can't be racist.

    Which is whiny rubbish. When I see a report that he shot those people dead because they're white and he had a particular grudge against whites in general, I will agree that it was a racist hate crime. For now, it seems to be a mentally deranged lunatic that wanted revenge against his ex-workplace and used "they were mean to me" as an unsubstantiated excuse for murder.

    No he specifically said they were mean to him racially. If you don't want whiny accusations of double standards don't engage in double standards.


  • #261
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    No he specifically said they were mean to him racially. If you don't want whiny accusations of double standards don't engage in double standards.

    And at the moment, there seems to be significant reason to believe he was bull****ting for an excuse. As in, attempting to justify a horrendous crime. That's my issue with all this. No, I think it is still a bit early to treat this -specifically- as a race crime rather than a deranged lone gunman.

    I appreciate that opinions vary on this.


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  • #262
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    What does one think ? And on me saying it was not race related that's not what I said. I said there was no Racial bullying in this case as the shooter had tried that already and lost. That has nothing to do with the shooter being racially motivated.

    The killer accused his victim of being racist towards him and then he kills her. And you think this outcome, i.e. her death, was not racially motivated?


  • #263
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    No he specifically said they were mean to him racially. If you don't want whiny accusations of double standards don't engage in double standards.

    If this was a white shooter that had used the N word in some random tweet it would be case closed. How many times will this shooter have to have commented on White for example for it to be Racially motivated. Hypothetical.


  • #264
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    The killer accused his victim of being racist towards him and then he kills her. And you think this outcome, i.e. her death, was not racially motivated?

    https://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg


  • #265
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Samaris wrote: »
    Now -that- is a straw man :P

    No. A strawman would be me accusing you of saying something you didn't say and then attacking that argument.

    What I engaged in is whatsboutary. A much more legitimate argument if, and only if, I am claiming bias.

    I hate all Americans equally, black and white, and I encourage you all to do the same. Ireland isn't America. Stop getting annoyed at racial slights. Stop thinking you are a white American or have to defend American blacks.


    In most cases I don't care about internal American killings, nothing to do with us. However this one is clearly racially motivated as were the white cops who killed blacks, and the man who shot up the theatre when Amy Schumers movie played -- and targeted women only -- was sexist. He may also have been mad. Doesn't matter.


  • #266
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    https://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

    Easy way out of an argument, I suppose.

    You came on here saying that no-one bullied him. You never explained how you knew that. You have no idea what happened. You lost all credibility from that point on.

    Now you are saying it was racially motivated.

    I think you need to take a few moments to work out where you actually stand.


  • #267
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    The killer accused his victim of being racist towards him and then he kills her. And you think this outcome, i.e. her death, was not racially motivated?

    When the V-Tech guy did his shooting, he put out a whole manifesto. Nobody ever talked about his motivations seriously, though. No-one would have dared, except for a few internet cranks. He was just a looney with a victim complex. This guy tweets about a racist remark and a report he'd filed and we're supposed to factor it in? I put these motivations in the same bracket. Real in the mind of the perpetrator, but taken way way way out of hand, whatever the case.


  • #268
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    I hate all Americans equally, black and white, and I encourage you all to do the same.

    Wow, you hate over 300 million people that you've never met and have never done anything to you? What other nationalities or races do you hate?

    I don't get upset or offended by generalizations but specifically saying you hate ALL...you're a bit of a c*nt, really. A sad c*nt that harbors hatred for strangers...


  • #269
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    briany wrote: »
    When the V-Tech guy did his shooting, he put out a whole manifesto. Nobody ever talked about his motivations seriously, though. No-one would have dared, except for a few internet cranks. He was just a looney with a victim complex. This guy tweets about a racist remark and a report he'd filed and we're supposed to factor it in? I put these motivations in the same bracket. Real in the mind of the perpetrator, but taken way way way out of hand, whatever the case.

    People talked about the Manifesto left by the kid in California that rolled up in a BMW and started shooting. They also talked about the manifesto of the guy that killed the cops and then went to hide out in a lodge and got burned alive by the cops! Didn't change much....things quickly turn back to the gun debate.

    A big reason (other than the fact the Vietnamese generally kicked their arses) for the way the war in Vietnam ended was down to public pressure by the Americans back home. There was a great BBC Documentary about it. A groundswell at University campuses around the country after a Company spokesman for a company that was producing napalm showed up to talk and got protested. The protestors were subsequently beat by city cops (despite the fact, the campus has it's own police)...that kicked off an uprising. Obviously the Kent State massacre and subsequent outrage influenced too.

    Possibly the biggest sway was the fact the media were broadcasting from Vietnam showing a lot of the carnage of the war. While politicians were talking positively about the US efforts, the media was showing a different story with young men getting gravely injured and killed.

    It would be great if this being recorded and out there actually kicks off a change BUT it won't. The most poignant thing I read about the Gun debate in the US was the fact that there's no real debate....it's not up for discussion any more. The time kids were slaughtered and people reacted by buying stockpiles of weapons and shouting about their rights with nothing changing was the end of the discussion. Nothing will change...it's not going to get worse than that.


  • #270
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    briany wrote: »
    When the V-Tech guy did his shooting, he put out a whole manifesto. Nobody ever talked about his motivations seriously, though. No-one would have dared, except for a few internet cranks. He was just a looney with a victim complex. This guy tweets about a racist remark and a report he'd filed and we're supposed to factor it in? I put these motivations in the same bracket. Real in the mind of the perpetrator, but taken way way way out of hand, whatever the case.

    I agree with you, which is why a few pages back I said the remarks may have been perceived by him as racist. There is no debating his actions were way out of hand. That goes without saying.


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  • #271
    PizzamanIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭PizzamanIRL


    Cowardly prick kills himself after it all. Dick head. If you don't want to live your life anymore then **** off and leave innocent people out of it.


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