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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1982
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So nobody should do maths or science, just languages and art. Yeah, that'll work.

    I didn't draw that wild conclusion Dan_Solo - you did!
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I used the term "robopupils" to pull the piss out of the way you are portraying any inclination to teach children subjects that might be of any earthly use to them after they finish school.

    Guess why I used it... :pac:
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    "return on investment" was also one of your own phrases.

    Don't think it was... please show me

    Dan you never told us what your experience of learning Irish was like? Was there lots of spoken Irish out of curiousty?


  • #1983
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!
    Hmmm, sounds like coercion. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide whether they want to speak it or not?


  • #1984
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    LordSutch wrote: »

    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.


    Huh? You mean Irish is not a core/mandatory subject in school?

    Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

    In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop


  • #1985
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Dan you never told us what your experience of learning Irish was like? Was there lots of spoken Irish out of curiousty?
    Aaaand there's the personalisation/anecdote thing again from the pro-Irish brigade.
    My personal experience of Irish has the square root of f. all to do with this. As much on of the 1% of Irish people who regularly speaks Irish saying we should all be forced to speak it because they do.


  • #1986
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hmmm, sounds like coercion. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide whether they want to speak it or not?

    Should Irish teachers be allowed to decide whether they want to speak Irish in the classroom or not? I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....


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  • #1987
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Should Irish teachers be allowed to decide whether they want to speak Irish in the classroom or not? I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....
    Do you think there are Irish teachers who can't speak Irish at all? Is this another facet of your imaginary "poorly taught Irish" theory?


  • #1988
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

    In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop
    Um. Get ready for a shock here. Warning. OK?
    People hate mandatory Irish because they actually think mandatory maths and English are good ideas.


  • #1989
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Aaaand there's the personalisation/anecdote thing again from the pro-Irish brigade.
    My personal experience of Irish has the square root of f. all to do with this. As much on of the 1% of Irish people who regularly speaks Irish saying we should all be forced to speak it because they do.

    Well I have to say you have been the most passionate anti-mandatory Irish poster on the thread, typing with such passion and mastery of rhetoric that this topic clearly has personal importance to you.... why don't you open up and share what drives this burning desire with you??

    Could you at least confirm that you did learn Irish in the classroom - just to share whether you personally experienced the pleasure of learning the language with your peers - personal testimony if you will....


  • #1990
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do you think there are Irish teachers who can't speak Irish at all? Is this another facet of your imaginary "poorly taught Irish" theory?

    You think poor Irish teaching is imaginary? Really?!


  • #1991
    stannis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 230 ✭✭stannis


    Un Croissant wrote: »
    Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.

    Hope not... back in 1990 everyone was saying "learn German" what with ze two Germanies being reunited and all. The Germans are doing well right now but didn't turn into the superpower that people were expecting/fearing. I live in China most of the year and while its development has been impressive it's built on very shaky foundations. So everyone rushing to learn Chinese in 2015 would be just as foolish as those Germanophiles in 1990.


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  • #1992
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Could you at least confirm that you did learn Irish in the classroom - just to share whether you personally experienced the pleasure of learning the language with your peers - personal testimony if you will....
    But my personal experience of Irish is about as useful in a discussion of what should happen at state level as your personal experience.
    It's a bit of an admission that your argument is kaput when you need to try to find a personal angle I'm afraid. Pretty damn obvious too.


  • #1993
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    You think poor Irish teaching is imaginary? Really?!
    You said there were Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.
    I don't believe you TBH.
    If Irish teaching is crap, maybe it's because even the teachers couldn't be arsed with it, eh?


  • #1994
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

    In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop

    Yes, I suspect it's the double whammy that seems to be the problem.
    (Irish + Mandatory = negativity) for whatever reason. Maths & English don't seem to have the same deep seated negativity connected to them! So maybe it's because Irish is a form of communication, an ancient form of communication that people can't be bothered to want to learn, in the modern world?


  • #1995
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    But my personal experience of Irish is about as useful in a discussion of what should happen at state level as your personal experience.
    It's a bit of an admission that your argument is kaput when you need to try to find a personal angle I'm afraid. Pretty damn obvious too.

    Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

    You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You said there were Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.
    I don't believe you TBH.

    What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If Irish teaching is crap, maybe it's because even the teachers couldn't be arsed with it, eh?

    I would love a teacher's input here... Byhookorbycrook or another poster perhaps??!! I know some of mine weren't that interested but others were really inspirational...


  • #1996
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

    I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.


  • #1997
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yes, I suspect it's the double whammy that seems to be the problem.
    (Irish + Mandatory = negativity) for whatever reason. Maths & English don't seem to have the same deep seated negativity connected to them! So maybe it's because Irish is a form of communication, an ancient form of communication that people can't be bothered to want to learn, in the modern world?

    I thought lots of people had a negative attitude towards maths because of its perceived difficulty...

    I know plenty who dropped to pass at the earliest opportunity to minimise their exposure to it...

    Maths is also an ancient form of communication that *some* can't be bothered to want to learn, in this modern world of computers and calculators!


  • #1998
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

    I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.

    Well, it might look a little more enthuasiastic from the point of view of someone who works in a Gaelscoil! Try getting the same level of enthusuasim in a National School.

    It depends, though, on what is meant by "failing" and what people see as succeeding. Also, from an educator's point of view, what's your take on compulsory LC Irish? Just in terms of the lanaguge and how it effects the pressue you say its under - lets not go down the road of a mandatory subjects debate again!

    The other thing I'd be curious about is: how many ofthe paretns speak Irish themselves?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1999
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

    You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....
    You still can't tell me why it would be relevant. Why should anybody care about MY personal experience? An argument is either right or wrong, who's making the argument is irrelevant. The fact you don't even appear to get this is very telling.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!
    Dughorm wrote:
    I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....
    OK then, so you're saying all Irish teachers can speak Irish but they choose not to in Irish classes?
    Sorry, that makes about as much sense as them not being able to speak Irish TBH.


  • #2000
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

    I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.

    Exactly - so long as there's people interested the language lives on!

    2000 posts - well done folks! Cupán tae anyone? :D


  • #2001
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    The other thing I'd be curious about is: how many ofthe paretns speak Irish themselves?
    Like every other Gaelscoil outside a Gaeltacht area, the answer will be pretty much zero habitual speakers. Using Irish day to day has no connection whatsoever to the school. It's the home and locality.


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  • #2002
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm View Post
    Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

    You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....


    You still can't tell me why it would be relevant. Why should anybody care about MY personal experience? An argument is either right or wrong, who's making the argument is irrelevant.

    If you have any knowledge of politics you will know that the person making the argument is often more important than the topic at hand - and this is a political question.

    It's up to you whether you share your personal experience, but it has to have people wondering what it must have been like given your keyboard warrior stance on the topic!!

    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The fact you don't even appear to get this is very telling.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....

    OK then, so you're saying all Irish teachers can speak Irish but they choose not to in Irish classes?
    Sorry, that makes about as much sense as them not being able to speak Irish TBH.

    I'm just going to leave the bits in bold speak for themselves here... notice the absence of the word "all" in my sentence and it's magical appearance in your sentence to completely misrepresent my point here!


  • #2003
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    If you have any knowledge of politics you will know that the person making the argument is often more important than the topic at hand - and this is a political question.

    It's up to you whether you share your personal experience, but it has to have people wondering what it must have been like given your keyboard warrior stance on the topic!!
    It would only have people who value personal experience over logical argument wondering. Frankly I'm not all that bothered about those kinds of people's opinion.
    Thanks for admitting you couldn't argue your case without resorting to personalising anyway. Cheers.


  • #2004
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I'm just going to leave the bits in bold speak for themselves here... notice the absence of the word "all" in my sentence and it's magical appearance in your sentence to completely misrepresent my point here!
    You could just answer the question: do you think not all Irish teachers can speak Irish or that they can but won't?


  • #2005
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Like every other Gaelscoil outside a Gaeltacht area, the answer will be pretty much zero habitual speakers. Using Irish day to day has no connection whatsoever to the school. It's the home and locality.
    Most of those parents make an effort to use what Irish they have with their children. Those parents who don't have Irish are keen to learn and use their Irish.
    In the English speaking school , I taught things like art and PE through Irish as much as possible and suddenly parents who had suffered Peig etc. through school themselves became re-enthusiastic about Irish


  • #2006
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You could just answer the question: do you think not all Irish teachers can speak Irish or that they can but won't?

    Why bother - you've already told me what I think and ignore my questions when they suit you!


  • #2007
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Most of those parents make an effort to use what Irish they have with their children. Those parents who don't have Irish are keen to learn and use their Irish.
    In the English speaking school , I taught things like art and PE through Irish as much as possible and suddenly parents who had suffered Peig etc. through school themselves became re-enthusiastic about Irish
    Nice anecdote.
    Here's facts: http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/0529/704583-irish-in-decline-in-gaeltacht-areas-report/
    Even in "Gaeltacht" areas it's dying outside the school.


  • #2008
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why bother - you've already told me what I think and ignore my questions when they suit you!
    a.k.a. you refuse to answer a direct question. Would it be because clarifying your own statements in any way would lead to some uncomfortable truths for you by any chance?


  • #2009
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    a.k.a. you refuse to answer a direct question. Would it be because clarifying your own statements in any way would lead to some uncomfortable truths for you by any chance?

    This doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest!


  • #2010
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest!
    And lo and behold, you don't seem to be able to quote this mysterious question I have in your imagination avoided.
    Want another chance to quote/fabricate/invent it yeah?


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  • #2011
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And lo and behold, you don't seem to be able to quote this mysterious question I have in your imagination avoided.
    Want another chance to quote/fabricate/invent it yeah?

    You didn't ask!

    But I don't want to derail the topic - the first 2000 posts were so productive... it would be a terrible pity to engage further....

    I feel this thread has really helped tease out the topic and explore new avenues for Irish learning in the 21st century and helped us to learn aspects of the language we hadn't considered previously. It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language and encouraged 'New Irish' to make a contribution to the thread and hopefully inspire them to engage with the language! If it has inspired others to re-engage and go beyond their schooling wouldn't that be wonderful!


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