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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1952
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    So media outlets need to be created to prove the language is spoken in homes on a daily basis?

    You've twisted my point. If a country has a multilingual population with multiple languages in use then that would constitute a niche in the market, one which will usually be filled quite quickly.
    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

    I've never heard of the latter and barely of the former. How are you assessing popularity? Tuairisc.ie is yet another state-owned proppin-up measure.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1953
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    We do always come back to relevance. There are many subjects any well rounded student should have some knowledge in. But is it important enough to make compulsory for everyone? Compulsory to me should be subjects like English and maths, i.e. "cannot do without in the modern world" subjects, or "absolutely required to land a job or go to 3rd level" subjects.
    Irish should be taught, but it shouldn't be compulsory, because it doesn't fall into that category.

    Oh I agree - but I don't see the point in mandatory Maths or English after the JC. Either you have enough knowledge of the sujects at that point for the modern world, or something far more fundamental has gone seriously wrong.

    I'm just sayign the idea of Irish being "irrelevant" is relative.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1954
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Oh I agree - but I don't see the point in mandatory Maths or English after the JC. Either you have enough knowledge of the sujects at that point for the modern world, or something far more fundamental has gone seriously wrong.

    I'm just sayign the idea of Irish being "irrelevant" is relative.

    The thing is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach is impossible and so the system is set up based on probability. There are a wide range of professions where education in Maths and English is beneficial. Irish, on the other hand only serves to perpetuate a broken system. If people want to learn it then of course they should but the likelihood of pupils reaping a benefit from the obscene amount of time mis-studying it is so slight that they'd gain as much learning about Gaius Marius or something equally obscure.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1955
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.


  • #1956
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.

    Nobody seems to know how many people regularly tune in. I'm guessing very few.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #1957
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.
    Raidio na Life I know from them playing lots of classical music years ago. I can't say I've ever listened to any their Irish language programmes. I'm not sure I even noticed them having any.


  • #1958
    OMD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you have an argument to make to change the status of either of our languages in law and in the public realm, it's up to you to make it rather than trying to change the discussion to draw attention away from your inability to advance your case.

    You should bear in mind that my argument isn't about "mandating Irish in schools", or whatever other hobby horse you have. I would prefer a radical overhaul of the teaching of Irish, as it happens. But that view of mine is by the by. Your argument is based on your inability to get to grips with Irish and your prejudices against it. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll need to advance more credible arguments that rely on reason rather than emotion.

    I haven't read all this thread but have you actually given any reason why Irish should continue as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert?


  • #1959
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,670 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I'm failing to see any compelling arguments for Irish as a compulsory second level subject in this thread.

    Hint: 'well, that's the status quo, tough' is not a compelling argument.


  • #1960
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wow. Another vague, waffling, meandering, not-addressing anything at all attack on my "general" posting style. Who wuddathunkit?
    And why should they be? It's very obvious nobody wants to use them. If there were 1,000,000 Irish radio and TV channels would everybody stop listening and watching English media?
    Sure, yeah, sure they would.

    Any chance you'd actually answer anything without the "your posts are poo poo" style responses? Perhaps start with why you think I want Irish to die, which you have, what a surprise, yet again failed miserably to demonstrate any evidence for?

    What haven't I addressed? If there is anyone here that isn't addressing the topic in hand its you.

    You said you didn't want the Irish language to die...I asked why....no reply.

    Evidence for what? What are you actually asking me here? I stated that there simply isn't enough money to finance media outlets.Why? because Irish is a minority language. I'm simply giving my own opinion, which is something that you obviously can't understand.

    I'll leave it at that with you :pac:
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You've twisted my point. If a country has a multilingual population with multiple languages in use then that would constitute a niche in the market, one which will usually be filled quite quickly.



    I've never heard of the latter and barely of the former. How are you assessing popularity? Tuairisc.ie is yet another state-owned proppin-up measure.

    I haven't twisted your point at all. My initial point was that people will continue to speak Irish in their homes. There is a niche in the Irish market, maybe not one that you are familiar with, nor might it be quite so big but there is a niche. I do understand your point though. Tuairisc was and is funded by the government. Yes its popular within the Irish community but consider my point void for not having numbers to back it up.

    A hefty amount of money has been poured into it so I can understand why you are left frustrated as a taxpayer. What would make more sense is to have TG4 and RnaG united and creating an independent Irish language public server. The answer is not to keep pumping money into something that isn't working. The Irish planning is quite simply embarrassing.

    Raidio na Life has roughly 20,000+ listeners in the greater Dublin area. Considering that the majority of the presenters are volunteers @ this station, I find that to be a huge success. Really good station for anyone that likes good music and some very good talk shows on it as well.


  • #1961
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    I haven't twisted your point at all. My initial point was that people will continue to speak Irish in their homes. There is a niche in the Irish market, maybe not one that you are familiar with, nor might it be quite so big but there is a niche. I do understand your point though. Tuairisc was and is funded by the government. Yes its popular within the Irish community but consider my point void for not having numbers to back it up.

    A hefty amount of money has been poured into it so I can understand why you are left frustrated as a taxpayer. What would make more sense is to have TG4 and RnaG united and creating an independent Irish language public server. The answer is not to keep pumping money into something that isn't working. The Irish planning is quite simply embarrassing.

    Raidio na Life has roughly 20,000+ listeners in the greater Dublin area. Considering that the majority of the presenters are volunteers @ this station, I find that to be a huge success. Really good station for anyone that likes good music and some very good talk shows on it as well.

    Why do you keep emphasising "in their homes". Are these people somehow ashamed of speaking it in public? I'd agree about weaning RnG and TG4 off the state teat though.

    Do you have a source for that RnaLife claim?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #1962
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Why do you keep emphasising "in their homes". Are these people somehow ashamed of speaking it in public? I'd agree about weaning RnG and TG4 off the state teat though.

    Do you have a source for that RnaLife claim?

    I'm not emphasising that people are only speaking Irish in their homes, it was a response to a point raised. Of course Irish is spoken in public. I think you are somewhat twisting my words here.

    RnaLife source; http://www.mediastreet.ie/en/businesses/raidio-na-life-1064-fm


  • #1963
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.
    Aren't they both funded by Foras na Gaeilge, a government-funded agency?


  • #1964
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

    This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

    Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?


  • #1965
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?
    There is nothing liberal about forcing children to speak Irish.


  • #1966
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

    The present system of coercion is an admission of failure.

    I don't think compulsory Irish or English or Maths damages the reputation of any of these subjects. It would be brilliant if people learn Irish or English or Maths out of love for it - funnily enough you might be surprised which of these 3 subjects has the highest proportion of attendees at night classes!

    I don't think our educational approach could be called a "system of coercion" unless you're referring to the points race of course!


  • #1967
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?

    Is it a more "productive" language you mean?


  • #1968
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

    IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

    Isn't that shocking really when you think about? Says a lot about how it is taught!
    LordSutch wrote: »
    Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

    Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.


  • #1969
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,332 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I don't think compulsory Irish or English or Maths damages the reputation of any of these subjects. It would be brilliant if people learn Irish or English or Maths out of love for it - funnily enough you might be surprised which of these 3 subjects has the highest proportion of attendees at night classes!

    OK, but if you're going to claim that, you'll want to put up a few statistical numbers along with their source, just for veracity's sake.


  • #1970
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Relevance is not a matter of choice!!!

    Please justify this - if I am interested in Irish it is relevant to me isn't it?
    If I decide that Irish is part of my identity am I not free to decide this?

    Who does decide my identity in your opinion?


  • #1971
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    OMD wrote: »
    I got an A in Irish in the leaving. For that matter I also got an A in maths. Irish has been totally and completely a waste of time.

    So did I - but I find that Irish has been more relevant to me than my leaving cert maths has been. So I guess it depends on the person as to whether a subject is a waste of time.


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  • #1972
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

    If you share Dan_Solo's capitalist view of education then I don't think we can agree here because if getting a "job" is the desired outcome of the "schooling machine" then we should be all getting work experience placements in secondary education...to mould our individuality into the generic "worker" that "the economy" requires...

    I still think it's a great part of our educational system that students *can* study the arts, history, classics, languages out of pure interest should they so choose.


  • #1973
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    There is nothing liberal about forcing children to speak Irish.

    Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!


  • #1974
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    briany wrote: »
    OK, but if you're going to claim that, you'll want to put up a few statistical numbers along with their source, just for veracity's sake.

    I don't know the answer myself - but I think people would be surprised!


  • #1975
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

    Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?

    Well, yes - yes it should give a return. In any case, I meant the return on the investment in the Irish language.

    Off topic, but there is nothing liberal about having three set subjects on a syllabus that kids have already attained operation skills in, which the ay or may not want to tae further. Liberal would mean being taught to express yourself and being respected enough and encouraged to choose.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1976
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!
    Generalise much???


  • #1977
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Generalise much???

    True... that should say "some" ;)


  • #1978
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

    Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?
    I used the term "robopupils" to pull the piss out of the way you are portraying any inclination to teach children subjects that might be of any earthly use to them after they finish school. "return on investment" was also one of your own phrases.
    So nobody should do maths or science, just languages and art. Yeah, that'll work.


  • #1979
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Isn't that shocking really when you think about? Says a lot about how it is taught!

    Agreed 100%
    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.

    Huh? You mean Irish is not a core/mandatory subject in school?


  • #1980
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    If you share Dan_Solo's capitalist view of education
    Which you never actually demonstrated in any sense outside outside your own imagination/deliberate fabrication.


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  • #1981
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is it a more "productive" language you mean?
    It will also make them happier and more capable. It might even improve their memory and they'll remember the three things I said education should do instead of just the one. ;)


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