The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 02:29PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Either way people have always written off the Irish language and have stated for years upon years that the language is completely dead or will die...but guess what? Its not. Now this may disappoint a few people in here. When I first started off in school I heard this argument being brushed about, yet here I am still speaking Irish.

You and the rest of the 1% of the country who use it habitually.
I could say exactly the same about the more popular Polish. Why not teach that in school? You're more likely to find somebody to speak it with!
Here we are again for the millionth (well, not millionth because there's only 40-80,000 of ye) time with the pro-Irish crew anecdotes. See flintknapping above.

Speedwell · 18-08-2015 02:31PM

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 02:35PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Well a good sharp knife is more use than conas ata tu will ever be I guess...

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 02:41PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.

I think it's an NUI stipulation? Not sure if the evil sasenach TCD has it too?
Interestingly, the NUI and the Board of Education have different views on Irish requirement. If you're born outside Ireland and move here after a certain age then NUI say you don't need Irish to get in. But the Board of Education will insist you continue to sit the mandatory classes...

DyldeBrill · 18-08-2015 03:03PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You and the rest of the 1% of the country who use it habitually.
I could say exactly the same about the more popular Polish. Why not teach that in school? You're more likely to find somebody to speak it with!
Here we are again for the millionth (well, not millionth because there's only 40-80,000 of ye) time with the pro-Irish crew anecdotes. See flintknapping above.

Here we go with the whole 'pro-Irish' BS again.

You've been harping on an on about Polish, Chinese and whatever other languages you've googled to try make any of your arguments sound concrete. And FTR, when have I ever said that Polish shouldn't be taught in schools?What has this thread got to do with Polish? You've proven once again that you can't stick with the issue in hand and continue to answer your own questions, change people's words to suit yourself and just being down right silly most the time.

You've stated a day or two ago that you would not like to see the Irish language die? I'm confused by this

, you've done nothing but slate the language, without giving one bit of positive feedback on the language. I wouldn't mind if you just said you'd prefer if it would die out at least then you're being honest instead of throwing around contradictory statements.

You are a complete waste of time when dealing with this issue because you simply can't stick to the issue in hand.

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2015 03:11PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I'm all for making the Irish language optional, and agree that something is going to have to change in the curriculum, but how would you know what language people will speak at home? I know plenty of people that speak nothing but Irish in their homes, especially in the west of the country and that also carry out their business through Irish. I don't see this changing. That's not to say they don't speak English at all but Irish would be their 1st language...English second and this will continue. Its a long line of tradition in families, and a tradition that will carry on.

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case then I think it can be fairly concluded that the vast majority of the population is speaking English as well they should.

I've never bashed the language itself. The current system serves only to foster resentment towards it, waste taxpayers' money and further it's demise. At the very absolute least, it needs to be optional.

Speedwell · 18-08-2015 03:15PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case...

The problem with libertarian "the free market will regulate itself" style arguments is that no actor has perfect knowledge, unlimited access to the market, or unlimited resources, and is trading with other actors who have a different array of knowledge, access points, and resources. I used to be a libertarian and I'm sick and tired of "perfect market" arguments that never pan out in practice.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 03:17PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Here we go with the whole 'pro-Irish' BS again.

You've been harping on an on about Polish, Chinese and whatever other languages you've googled to try make any of your arguments sound concrete. And FTR, when have I ever said that Polish shouldn't be taught in schools?What has this thread got to do with Polish? You've proven once again that you can't stick with the issue in hand and continue to answer your own questions, change people's words to suit yourself and just being down right silly most the time.

You've stated a day or two ago that you would not like to see the Irish language die? I'm confused by this , you've done nothing but slate the language, without giving one bit of positive feedback on the language. I wouldn't mind if you just said you'd prefer if it would die out at least then you're being honest instead of throwing around contradictory statements.

You are a complete waste of time when dealing with this issue because you simply can't stick to the issue in hand.

You do seem confused alright.
I have to support compulsory teaching of Irish to not want it to die? I don't support compulsory teaching of art or music so by your definition I want those to disappear too, yeah? Lots of sense being made there.
I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people. Yet Irish isn't even the second most used language in Ireland. It probably isn't even the third most popular language in Ireland by actual fluency. So why is it compulsory beyond cultural enforcement?
The rest of your post is just a generalised non-specific whine. "I don't like your sort of posts".

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2015 03:18PM

Speedwell wrote: »

The problem with libertarian "the free market will regulate itself" style arguments is that no actor has perfect knowledge, unlimited access to the market, or unlimited resources, and is trading with other actors who have a different array of knowledge, access points, and resources. I used to be a libertarian and I'm sick and tired of "perfect market" arguments that never pan out in practice.

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

Speedwell · 18-08-2015 03:21PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

That's a valid point, then, about not seeing media, though I would personally rule out other reasons for it (such as, for example, economic or political pressures). Come to think of it I should also probably stop using the word "libertarian" as it is used by the Ludwig Von Mises Institute and the Libertarian Party in America, that is, someone with a death-grip on "free market" principles and a loose grip on practicalities. Not referring to you, of course.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 03:22PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2015 03:26PM

Speedwell wrote: »

That's a valid point, then, about not seeing media, though I would personally rule out other reasons for it (such as, for example, economic or political pressures). Come to think of it I should also probably stop using the word "libertarian" as it is used by the Ludwig Von Mises Institute and the Libertarian Party in America, that is, someone with a death-grip on "free market" principles and a loose grip on practicalities. Not referring to you, of course.

I'm centre-left with a few socialist beliefs thrown in with regards to healthcare, education and the environment. I'm not familiar with those institutions so I'm afraid I've nothing to counter that with.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

TG4 is a public service broadcaster which isn't privately owned. This makes sense as even the content providers know that the endeavour is doomed. Last time I had it on they were playing American Westerns with no subtitles.

Speedwell · 18-08-2015 03:28PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm centre-left with a few socialist beliefs thrown in with regards to healthcare, education and the environment. I'm not familiar with those institutions so I'm afraid I've nothing to counter that with.

Yeah, sorry about that, it was a misstep on my part to use the word at all around here. I don't get it all correct yet.

whisky_galore · 18-08-2015 03:28PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

TG4 and Radio na G. I'm sure there's newspapers out there, but I don't tend to look out for those things.

One irksome thing imho is that Irish language Wikipedia page translation on Newstalk radio during ad breaks, pure tokenism to fill a quota I imagine?

Carlos Orange · 18-08-2015 03:31PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

I only really paid attention to GAA for a few years while they were handing out fizzy drinks and crisps every time we won the All Ireland but I imagine GAA is probably an order of magnitude bigger than the Irish language.

ancapailldorcha · 18-08-2015 03:35PM

psinno wrote: »

I only really paid attention to GAA for a few years while they were handing out fizzy drinks and crisps every time we won the All Ireland but I imagine GAA is probably an order of magnitude bigger than the Irish language.

I only mentioned it as it was the only other significant aspect of Irish culture I could think of on the fly. It's not a fair comparison as 1) GAA is good for you for obvious reasons and 2) it's consuming far fewer state resources with a much better return. There are GAA clubs in the Middle East which is a measure of how popular it is.

dr.fuzzenstein · 18-08-2015 04:20PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't think it is reasonable for Irish to be optional and English to be mandatory as the syllabi currently stand. Being consistent - having an 'all optional' stance is reasonable!

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

dr.fuzzenstein · 18-08-2015 04:27PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Soooo, how many jobs do you think there are in the country for flintknappers vs, oh, I don't know, IT?
Now, if there are indeed as many as three in Ireland, do you mean as a hobby, or do they actually make a living out of it?
Is that now in your opinion a relevant industry? Should it be compulsory at school? Surely anything to retain and keep alive the (second) oldest profession in the world?
Of course if flintknapping isn't compulsory, I don't see why IT should be then (it probably isn't, we're still catching up with all that computer stuff), because by your logic the same applies to Irish and French or other useful foreign languages vs Irish. Only those are serious, useful tools in every day life and in the business world, i.e. happening right now and being in demand and opening up actual possibilities. There are probably public service jobs that demand a level of Irish (Do you speak Irish? yes. Good, you're hired, now let's never speak of it again)
If schools now focus on Irish, why don't we bring back courses for farriers and hoopers? And make them compulsory?
Relevancy, as you said. It's not a personal choice.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-08-2015 04:28PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Arguing against Irish because it's universally "irrelevant" is as much a fallacy as arguing that it's univerally "important" when you're trying to impleement a system of choice.

Carlos Orange · 18-08-2015 04:30PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

They could just make the schools language of tuition mandatory. Then everyone is happy.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 04:35PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Of course if flintknapping isn't compulsory, I don't see why IT should be then (it probably isn't, we're still catching up with all that computer stuff), because by your logic the same applies to Irish and French or other useful foreign languages vs Irish. Only those are serious, useful tools in every day life and in the business world, i.e. happening right now and being in demand and opening up actual possibilities. There are probably public service jobs that demand a level of Irish (Do you speak Irish? yes. Good, you're hired, now let's never speak of it again)

Then again, if the state decided to set up a department of flintknapping, fund millions worth of TV and radio shows about flintknapping, gave generous grants to just about anything that happens in areas strong in flintknapping, then made flintkapping mandatory throughout school and in many public sector jobs...
Yes, I reckon then in that case flintknapping would be an excellent skill to have.

whisky_galore · 18-08-2015 04:35PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I only mentioned it as it was the only other significant aspect of Irish culture I could think of on the fly. It's not a fair comparison as 1) GAA is good for you for obvious reasons and 2) it's consuming far fewer state resources with a much better return. There are GAA clubs in the Middle East which is a measure of how popular it is.

It's not my bag personally, but maybe the attraction is that it's fun, a critical mass of people actually participate in it and enjoy it and therefore far easier to get behind..you could say much the same about Irish (traditional) music and that's not compulsory either. People actually want to do it.

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 04:37PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Anything can be relevant to the individual.
This isn't much of a basis for making it mandatory throughout schooling or having whatever that interest is costing the state billions.

Speedwell · 18-08-2015 04:37PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's not my bag personally, but maybe the attraction is that it's fun, a critical mass of people actually participate in it and enjoy it and therefore far easier to get behind..you could say much the same about Irish (traditional) music and that's not compulsory either. People actually want to do it.

or Irish whiskey?

whisky_galore · 18-08-2015 04:38PM

Speedwell wrote: »

or Irish whiskey?

Yeah sure, why not?

DyldeBrill · 18-08-2015 04:39PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case then I think it can be fairly concluded that the vast majority of the population is speaking English as well they should.

I've never bashed the language itself. The current system serves only to foster resentment towards it, waste taxpayers' money and further it's demise. At the very absolute least, it needs to be optional.

So media outlets need to be created to prove the language is spoken in homes on a daily basis?

I've never denied that the vast majority of Ireland speak English...of course they do and its vital that they do.

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You do seem confused alright.
I have to support compulsory teaching of Irish to not want it to die? I don't support compulsory teaching of art or music so by your definition I want those to disappear too, yeah?

No a chara, you seem somewhat confused. If you actually read my comment previous to the one you answered it would have saved you going on the usual daft rant that you love. I may as well be speaking to the wall here. I'll put it to you like this. You are making ZERO sense. Your raising issues that I never once raised. Now your talking about arts and music....I think I've just about given up on you dear fellow. You still haven't answered as to why you wouldn't want the Irish language to die.

I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people.

Ahhh that's why you keep bringing it up. Yes it is mandatory to learn Irish in schools in this country...I fail to see where I have said that it should remain mandatory so maybe you can stop using this.

I've stated that the compulsory teaching of Irish in schools needs to be changed so I fail to see what your actually harping on about once again. Your the one raising these issues not me, you've come to the point where you're answering your own questions.

dr.fuzzenstein · 18-08-2015 04:44PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Arguing against Irish because it's universally "irrelevant" is as much a fallacy as arguing that it's univerally "important" when you're trying to impleement a system of choice.

Good, because I'm not selling it.
Relevance is like Tuesdays. It just exists, agree with it or not.
We come back to flintknapping. If you have learnt it and maybe get a job in the Craggaunowen demonstrating it to tourists or maybe you recreate ancient stone axes and arrowheads for museums of course it will be hugely relevant to you. But now, because it is relevant to you, do we make it compulsory at school? Maybe over IT? Or you can't do IT without having passed flintknapping?
Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

Dan_Solo · 18-08-2015 04:46PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

No a chara, you seem somewhat confused. If you actually read my comment previous to the one you answered it would have saved you going on the usual daft rant that you love. I may as well be speaking to the wall here. I'll put it to you like this. You are making ZERO sense. Your raising issues that I never once raised. Now your talking about arts and music....I think I've just about given up on you dear fellow. You still haven't answered as to why you wouldn't want the Irish language to die.

Wow. Another vague, waffling, meandering, not-addressing anything at all attack on my "general" posting style. Who wuddathunkit?

DyldeBrill wrote: »

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

And why should they be? It's very obvious nobody wants to use them. If there were 1,000,000 Irish radio and TV channels would everybody stop listening and watching English media?
Sure, yeah, sure they would.

Any chance you'd actually answer anything without the "your posts are poo poo" style responses? Perhaps start with why you think I want Irish to die, which you have, what a surprise, yet again failed miserably to demonstrate any evidence for?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-08-2015 04:49PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Good, because I'm not selling it.
Relevance is like Tuesdays. It just exists, agree with it or not.
We come back to flintknapping. If you have learnt it and maybe get a job in the Craggaunowen demonstrating it to tourists or maybe you recreate ancient stone axes and arrowheads for museums of course it will be hugely relevant to you. But now, because it is relevant to you, do we make it compulsory at school? Maybe over IT? Or you can't do IT without having passed flintknapping?
Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

Then you previous point stating "it;s irrelevant" is a bit incomplete.

For me, education is (well, should be) about far more than just preparing a student for a third level course or a job, and I'd argue it doesn't even do that in any way efficiently.

dr.fuzzenstein · 18-08-2015 04:54PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then you previous point stating "it;s irrelevant" is a bit incomplete.

For me, education is (well, should be) about far more than just preparing a student for a third level course or a job, and I'd argue it doesn't even do that in any way efficiently.

We do always come back to relevance. There are many subjects any well rounded student should have some knowledge in. But is it important enough to make compulsory for everyone? Compulsory to me should be subjects like English and maths, i.e. "cannot do without in the modern world" subjects, or "absolutely required to land a job or go to 3rd level" subjects.
Irish should be taught, but it shouldn't be compulsory, because it doesn't fall into that category.

The Irish language is failing.

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