How should a Matchplay draw be made?

Seve OB · 11-08-2015 11:18AM #1

There is a new competition in Castleknock golf club called the Challenge Cup. It's a matchplay event for both 5 day and full members. There was a qualifier last Friday for the 5 day members, and Saturday for the full members. The top 64 were to qualify for the knockout stages. Round one was yesterday, round 2 today and each day right through till the final on Saturday, so it's pretty intensive. I've never played anything like this before and didn't really think it would work given the logistics of what is required from people who most likely have jobs, family, other commitments etc. Anyway, I decided I wouldn't tell the wife and entered anyway

So it seems as if I was right and there was not a full uptake and it resulted in the top 18 qualifiers getting a bye into round 2. I also spotted that yesterday there were a few extra byes given. I played well on Friday and scored 37 points which got me through to the second round.

Looking at the drawsheet, it appears that the top qualifiers who got byes play against other guys who got byes, so I know I'm playing someone else on form

Following this, we are all on the same side of the draw, so will meet each other all the way to the semi finals. (each semi final will have a top qualifier and someone who had to go through round one). I would have thought the reward for being a top qualifier would have been to meet an opponent who had to come through round one and certainly not all have us all on the same side of the draw.

It should be said, I'm not giving out or complaining here, I'm just happy to be playing golf

I'm just curious as to what you guys think of how the draw was done, and how you think it should have been done. I just think it doesn't appear to have had any real thought put into it and as a result there could be a very uneven set of semi finals. I would have much rathered an open draw for everyone, no byes by default, just by pot luck. Of course, golf is a funny aul game as we all know so form doesn't always mean it will lead into the next game, so all of the above means nothing really :rolleyes:

I'm playing against a lad today who I have to give 9 :eek: shots to. Maybe the only saving grace for me is that 3 of them will be on the last 3 holes, but sure it could be all over by then :rolleyes: If I survive the next 2 days, I'll probably meet the 10 handicapper who shot 46 points int he qualifier :eek::p

Aimead · 11-08-2015 11:28AM

I’ve almost undoubtedly got this wrong since I know jack about golf, but here is a seeding template for 64 players (I don’t know if single elimination applies in your case):

http://www.printyourbrackets.com/64seeded.html

Rank how the people qualified and follow the way it is laid out in the picture.

If I was in your position I’d probably be disappointed too as it’s not that difficult to set up a basic seeding.

Dr_Colossus · 11-08-2015 11:51AM

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm playing against a lad today who I have to give 9 :eek: shots to. Maybe the only saving grace for me is that 3 of them will be on the last 3 holes, but sure it could be all over by then :rolleyes: If I survive the next 2 days, I'll probably meet the 10 handicapper who shot 46 points int he qualifier :eek::p

Wow, golf really is a sick game and although handicaps are meant to level the playing field at times I think they do everything but that. A 10 handicapper or any other handicapper for that matter shooting 46 points is just wrong, I hope at least the qualifier was a qualifying competition and he got justifying cut given his level par round.

Singles matchplay would I think be fairer with 3/4 handicap differences, in the first round of our club singles matchplay I was giving my opponent 15 shots, makes for demoralising golf when you have to try and birdie holes for a half.

With regards your matchplay competition it does sound like there has been no tought with regards the draw and it should have been seeded according to the qualifyier results as otherwise what was the point of the qualifier?

Seve OB · 11-08-2015 06:34PM

Yea I see that chap was off 12 and was cut to 9.7 after his 46, but that is just savage scoring.

I think it's quite fair to play matchplay on full difference of handicaps.

It was a close run thing today but I came through in the end 3&1, so roll on tomorrow

Boskowski · 11-08-2015 06:48PM

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Wow, golf really is a sick game and although handicaps are meant to level the playing field at times I think they do everything but that. A 10 handicapper or any other handicapper for that matter shooting 46 points is just wrong, I hope at least the qualifier was a qualifying competition and he got justifying cut given his level par round.

Singles matchplay would I think be fairer with 3/4 handicap differences, in the first round of our club singles matchplay I was giving my opponent 15 shots, makes for demoralising golf when you have to try and birdie holes for a half.

With regards your matchplay competition it does sound like there has been no tought with regards the draw and it should have been seeded according to the qualifyier results as otherwise what was the point of the qualifier?

Sorry Dr but that doesn't make any sense. A guy you'd give 15 shots won't have too many pars to begin with. If we apply 3/4 differences for matchplay whats the point of the handicap system then? You are 15 shots better than this guy after all.

As it happens I'm watching the matchplay closely myself this year (I'm still in the fourballs, last 8 now) and now that it comes to the latter stages its almost exclusively single digit or lower guys who are left in it. Can't be THAT unfair.

Dr_Colossus · 12-08-2015 10:49AM

Boskowski wrote: »

Sorry Dr but that doesn't make any sense. A guy you'd give 15 shots won't have too many pars to begin with. If we apply 3/4 differences for matchplay whats the point of the handicap system then? You are 15 shots better than this guy after all.

As it happens I'm watching the matchplay closely myself this year (I'm still in the fourballs, last 8 now) and now that it comes to the latter stages its almost exclusively single digit or lower guys who are left in it. Can't be THAT unfair.

True enough and there was a very good paper a couple of years back showing how statistically the lower handicap golfer is favoured in matchplay despite the full difference allowance. I guess my above comment was more a gripe at how unexpectedly well a lot of the higher handicapped opponents play. I would expect someone off 20+ handicap to gift holes with OBs, tops, duffs etc instead of consistently scoring pars and bogies so it's probably more a case of an incorrect handicap than a fault with the allowance in matchplay.

Separate question pertaining to matchplay and handicap allowances:
Why can't the last hole on a course be index 1-4 in matchplay? A number of courses have tough finishes but they're a low index in normal play but a higher index for matchplay purposes to ensure the higher handicap golfer gets his full shot differencial before the completion of the game.

Seve OB · 12-08-2015 11:37AM

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Separate question pertaining to matchplay and handicap allowances:
Why can't the last hole on a course be index 1-4 in matchplay? A number of courses have tough finishes but they're a low index in normal play but a higher index for matchplay purposes to ensure the higher handicap golfer gets his full shot differencial before the completion of the game.

I've never heard of that. Any time I've played matchplay, it has always been from the index on the card.

mike12 · 12-08-2015 11:50AM

Seve OB wrote: »

I've never heard of that. Any time I've played matchplay, it has always been from the index on the card.

Some courses have different indexes for stableford and match play. Think the reason is more to make sure you are not giving away shots on the last 4 holes rather than making sure the person has their full allowance used.
You would feel hard done by if the last 2 holes were index 1 and 3 if you were giving away only 3 shots.

Seve OB · 12-08-2015 11:55AM

mike12 wrote: »

You would feel hard done by if the last 2 holes were index 1 and 3 if you were giving away only getting 3 shots.

FYP

As it happens, I think I am giving 3 shots today. Index 3 is the 17th.

Flip it though, and if the first hole is a low index say 4 and you are giving/getting 4 shots, and the match goes down 19, then the shot is received again... is that fair? I've lost a match for my club that way. Felt hard done by then I can tell you.

JIdontknow · 12-08-2015 03:24PM

Ive never heard that the last hole cant be index 1-4, it certainly is on the course I play...

The other side is that if you are getting shots and only getting them on later holes, as said above game could be over without you getting this shot to use, so it can work both ways. It really is one of those things that can be viewed either way. Personally if I am getting shots, then I would like one later on in the game, so I can aim to get him to there and then try take advantage of the shot, but if there is a big gap of index holes to play without getting a shot then I am on the back foot, but if I am giving a shot away later then I would feel under pressure and rather to give it earlier in the round.

Senna · 12-08-2015 06:43PM

mike12 wrote: »

Some courses have different indexes for stableford and match play. Think the reason is more to make sure you are not giving away shots on the last 4 holes rather than making sure the person has their full allowance used.
You would feel hard done by if the last 2 holes were index 1 and 3 if you were giving away only 3 shots.

Our course wants to reverse the 9's meaning the current 9th hole would be the 18th, but that would mean the finishing hole is index 2 and that is the main reason they won't do it, too low an index hole for finishing matchplay games.

If they could just make up a new index system that isn't based on actually scoring (which I think it is) but just done to suit matchplay, could they use it in interclub games?

Seve OB · 12-08-2015 07:30PM

Won 5&4 today. Was only 1 up through 9, neither of us firing on all cylinders, but he had one shot on the front 9 and took advantage of it.
My putter was hot today and I drained a few long ones, and was going very well on the back 9. He had a shot on the 14th but I got a par to his bogey to half the hole and close out the match.

Dr_Colossus · 13-08-2015 09:19AM

Senna wrote: »

Our course wants to reverse the 9's meaning the current 9th hole would be the 18th, but that would mean the finishing hole is index 2 and that is the main reason they won't do it, too low an index hole for finishing matchplay games.

If they could just make up a new index system that isn't based on actually scoring (which I think it is) but just done to suit matchplay, could they use it in interclub games?

I think the indexes are very much up to the club themselves and although they should be based on scoring it's obvioius this isn't always the case. For example the 18th in my home club statistically plays as index 1 in nearly all our club compeititions but yet the index of the hole is a ridiculous index 10. Anyone I've asked about the indexing of the hole keeps saying they can't have it as a low index because of matchplay.
I think the indexes of the course should be based on scoring only, none of this odd and even indexes on prospective 9's or high indexes on the final hole or two regarless of difficulty. If I have a shot on someone in matchplay I want it on the most difficult hole in the course whether that is the 1st of 18th is irrelevant.

Rikand · 13-08-2015 10:22AM

Seve OB wrote: »

FYP

As it happens, I think I am giving 3 shots today. Index 3 is the 17th.

Flip it though, and if the first hole is a low index say 4 and you are giving/getting 4 shots, and the match goes down 19, then the shot is received again... is that fair? I've lost a match for my club that way. Felt hard done by then I can tell you.

its the 4th hardest hole on the course. You should be able to score 1 shot better than your opponent if the handicap system is fair.

Rikand · 13-08-2015 11:08AM

You have a great wife there Seve. I'd never get away with that sort of nonsense

Seve OB · 13-08-2015 11:22AM

Rikand wrote: »

You have a great wife there Seve. I'd never get away with that sort of nonsense

she has had to give up her night out tonight :eek: in fairness though, i got home early yesterday

tough game tonight, tee off is 5.10 for some bizare reason, so I hope we have enough light. I'm playing the chap who had the 46 points last Saturday. He is fiving me three shots. 4th hole, 14th Hole & 17th hole.

I am traditionally a good bit better on the back 9 around Castleknock, so if I can make the turn all square I'll fancy my chances.

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 10:31AM

It was a late one last night. We teed off at 5.10, but thankfully nobody in front of us. We caught up with people on the 16th and had to wait there for maybe 5 minutes so we walked off the 18th at about 8.50...... straight down to the 19th.... then the 20th!!! It was getting quite dark and difficult to see balls going up there, so it was a case of getting a line on it and hoping for the best. It's a par 5, I sprayed my second well right, but still far enough down to leave me only a wedge to the green. My opponent was having a spot of bother and was only on in 5, about 20 foot away. I rolled my first from about 50-60 foot, down the hill, knowing 3 putts would possibly be enough. Not a great putt, pulled it and not hard enough to about 8 foot left of the hole, he missed his and that was good enough......

The nerves kicked in a bit last night and I felt I didn't play great, certainly wasn't striking it as well as I had been and my putting was weak with a good few 3 putts. However when I look back on it, I probably would have had close enough to 36 points so maybe not the worst after all!

Not sure, but I think I am giving 5 or 6 shots today. I am feeling quite drained and fairly knackered as I didn't sleep great last night. I've never made it to a semi-final before, never really played much matchplay to be honest so it's playing on my mind now! Got to figure out how to clam the nerves and block it out before tee off today at 14:40, and one way or another I'll be playing again tomorrow as there is also a 3rd & 4th place playoff. Feel like I need a caddy

OffalyMedic · 14-08-2015 10:57AM

Seve OB wrote:

Got to figure out how to clam the nerves and block it out before tee off today at 14:40.

Bombing one down the middle on the first usually helps with my nerves

haha...a bit of confidence and positive mental attitude whole way round no matter what the score is good too. Believe in yourself, you made semi final for a reason go on and win it out now

JIdontknow · 14-08-2015 11:02AM

Try not to over think it, just do your same routine, and plenty fluids and hydration, makes a huge difference. Even flavoured water as opposed to really sugary drinks, and some nuts to snack on etc.

Also ask yourself, before it started did you think you would get this far? If you genuinely didnt (judging by your posts you didnt think you would as you have had to give shots to lads, including the in form players etc), then try get into the mindset of anything else is a bonus, it might take the nerves away a bit, and gives you confidence to believe in yourself as you have gotten this far, against some players you didnt think you would. Take it hole by hole, shot by shot and forget the bad shots after the hole, every hole is a new start and blank canvas.

Finally you dont have to play unreal golf, you just need to beat whats in front of you. That means bogeys on some holes will win, as you saw last night on the last. Just box clever and sensible, keep it in play is vital!! if he tees off first and finds trouble, you dont have to hit it 300 yards, just be sensible. Best of luck and keep us updated!

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 12:21PM

shaunac93 wrote: »

Bombing one down the middle on the first usually helps with my nerves haha...a bit of confidence and positive mental attitude whole way round no matter what the score is good too. Believe in yourself, you made semi final for a reason go on and win it out now

Haha, I bombed a sensible 3 iron down the first yesterday straight into OB. My second went in the same place! Both well left. On the 19th I had it in my head and went so far right I ended up behind a tree and had to knock it back out sideways. Luckily he was the same!

JIdontknow wrote: »

Also ask yourself, before it started did you think you would get this far? If you genuinely didnt (judging by your posts you didnt think you would as you have had to give shots to lads, including the in form players etc), then try get into the mindset of anything else is a bonus, it might take the nerves away a bit, and gives you confidence to believe in yourself as you have gotten this far, against some players you didnt think you would.

Actually I only entered the comp as I knew I was playing well and felt I could go far in it. It was only after I seen the draw (which I thought was done unfairly) and realised I was on the tough side of it, that I fancied myself to just get through to the quarter final. I knew yesterday was going to be a really difficult match to win, against possibly the red hot favourite! It was tough, very tough, mentally and physically, and the lad I played was rock solid all the way. Few bad ones from each of us gifted holes to the others at times, but that's matchplay! So yes, it is a bonus to get this far

JIdontknow wrote: »

Take it hole by hole, shot by shot and forget the bad shots after the hole, every hole is a new start and blank canvas.

Good advice, but not easy to heed! I suckerpunched him on 15 yesterday. It was all square and I pulled my tee shot so far left, I was nearly in the clubhouse bar! He went down the middle, and played his second to the back of the green. I stuck my second to 6 foot and slotted the birdy putt. So 1 up going down 16 (par 5), I pulled my tee shot, but it was fine, out in the middle of the next fairway. He was under a tree, had to knock out sideways and after four shots he is well right of the green in the thick rough. I'm just short in 2. He told me after, he was resigned at that stage as I had a shot on 17. Well I had the hole won in my head and was 2 up going down 17 with a shot! I then duly misread how hard I needed to hit my shot, was about 60 yards, and I must have gone 90, right though the green to leave myself with a horrible pitch shot back down a hill, pin on the right side with big break from the right! He sticks it to 2.5 feet. I duff my chip leaving it in the fringe and took 3 putts.

I was however able to bounce back on 17, and it was exactly like you said. I completely forgot about what happened on 16. He was in the middle and he hit the shot of the day and possibly his shot of a lifetime, 200+ yard 3 wood over the tree in the middle of the fairway to 2.5 foot!!!!! I was in the right rough, in an old divot hole and with the rough around the ball, made it difficult for me to get the club under the ball so my flight was not high enough to get over the tree, and I duely went straight into it. A decent chip however left me with an 8 foot putt, but it lipped the hole. I made him putt, a short one, but tricky, downhill with break. He missed! Hole halved, and momentum back with me!

JIdontknow wrote: »

Finally you dont have to play unreal golf, you just need to beat whats in front of you. That means bogeys on some holes will win, as you saw last night on the last. Just box clever and sensible, keep it in play is vital!! if he tees off first and finds trouble, you dont have to hit it 300 yards, just be sensible. Best of luck and keep us updated!

So true, nobody else matters only your opposition! I often find though that playing safe can get me in trouble at times, as I am playing holes in ways I would not normally do and can make a bags of them! I know putting is the key today and if I putt like I did yesterday, I will not find it easy. I actually think I had 8 3 putts! :eek: I'll be off out early for a bit of practice!

Dr_Colossus · 14-08-2015 12:30PM

Some amount of golf, have you the week of work to play?
With the favourite, 46 point shooter, put to the sideline last night and you having come from the unfair side of the draw you're quids in to win this outright. Play well and claim victory

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 12:36PM

Not off work, but I am flexible enough. I took some home the other night and will be doing some more over the weekend also.
I feel like I have more of a chance today allright after yesterdays victory.

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 12:51PM

Just realised I am the lowest handicaper left @ 13. Think I have to give 5 or 6 shots today and the other Semi Final has a 19 & 20 handicapper.

Could be a good thing, or a bad thing... you just never know. I'm gonna take it as a good thing though, I am the best golfer left in the tournament!

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 07:21PM

Thanks Kingswood.

Someone say something about nerves? What nerves? Nerves of steel I tell ya

Played much better today. Few silly mistakes which I thought might cost me but won and halved a couple of unlikely holes to get a couple up, and a great birdy on 15 to go dormy 3 up. A half 16 with pars was good enough. So roll on tomorrow.

JIdontknow · 14-08-2015 07:28PM

Seve OB wrote: »

Thanks Kingswood.

Someone say something about nerves? What nerves? Nerves of steel I tell ya

Played much better today. Few silly mistakes which I thought might cost me but won and halved a couple of unlikely holes to get a couple up, and a great birdy on 15 to go dormy 3 up. A half 16 with pars was good enough. So roll on tomorrow.

Fair play to you! Just shows its all about each hole as opposed to overall round. Best of luck tomorrow, you've the confidence and playing well to win it now. Your opponent is bound to be nervous too so you can deal with yours as you've shown today.

Seve OB · 14-08-2015 07:52PM

JIdontknow wrote: »

Fair play to you! Just shows its all about each hole as opposed to overall round. Best of luck tomorrow, you've the confidence and playing well to win it now. Your opponent is bound to be nervous too so you can deal with yours as you've shown today.

Thanks. Yes it really does come down to holes. We actually finished the last 2 holes, and to be fair I didn't play them as I would of if the match was still alive but he had 2 pars to my 2 bogeys. Over the 18 he had 39 points, I had 38.

Not sure how the other guys played but the winner was also 3&2. I'll be giving 6 or 7 shots tomorrow.

Funny, I was nowhere near as tired or nervous today as I was yesterday. Excited about tomorrow whatever way it pans out. I won't mind losing as long as I'm not trounced! But obviously it would be nicer to win

Ben1977 · 14-08-2015 09:02PM

Congrats SeveOB keep it going, you must be playing great. You can't win your own Capts day with board society!!! Shoe in for Carton

Rikand · 15-08-2015 11:48AM

I hope you get a nice performance cut for this on general play

Macker1 · 15-08-2015 05:58PM

Rikand wrote: »

I hope you get a nice performance cut for this on general play

I didn't think you could get cut when it involves matchplay due to the fact that not all shots are holed out. Gimme's and suchlike would surely prevent any cuts being considered.

Tommo 76 · 15-08-2015 06:03PM

Macker1 wrote: »

I didn't think you could get cut when it involves matchplay due to the fact that not all shots are holed out. Gimme's and suchlike would surely prevent any cuts being considered.

I know someone who got to final of club match play and got cut for it (general play adjustment).

Best of luck today seve!

Seve OB · 15-08-2015 10:09PM

7 games in 9 days. I'm knackered, but quite obviously delighted, not that it shows, but I am

How should a Matchplay draw be made?

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