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New changes to regulations from 1st Sep dilemma

24

Comments

  • #32
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    overshoot wrote: »
    Ok last question... The home owner demonstrates compliance by....?

    Ask more questions, i've no problem answering them ;)
    Lets say Building Control pick a site for inspection that has no AC involved, then the home owner has to demonstrate compliance. If its a straight forward standard detail then he/she can use this as premafasia compliance.

    If its something out of the ordinary, then they may have to engage an engineer/architect/technician/Part B Specialist/Part M Specialist/Part L Specialist or somebody competent in their field to prove compliance.

    I expect that most people that opt out will not plow ahead without supervision, but instead with a Technician or an Engineer/Arch in a less involved role.

    But bear in mind, if they opt of out an AC appointment, then the LA will not issue a Completion Cert and will note on the register that the dwelling/extension commenced without an AC.
    overshoot wrote: »
    Inspections... rare! But considering the ground they have to cover vs how many are in the department its no surprise. They also said they would be focusing a lot of their energies on the less reputable certifiers to put it one way...

    Again, I cant answer for outside Dublin but I know the BCO's in Dublin City are inspection over 40% of CN's lodged.


  • #33
    overshoot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭overshoot


    kceire wrote: »
    But bear in mind, if they opt of out an AC appointment, then the LA will not issue a Completion Cert and will note on the register that the dwelling/extension commenced without an AC.
    Basically the council are not taking any responsibility, much like BC(A)R put the liability for defects on someone else and away from the public purse. So the status quo will be Kelly's promised "fit for purpose."

    Its the Compliance Cert im wondering about. Sort of sounds like they wont be obliged to demonstrate it without actually being asked. And given the typical Irish attitude....
    Following from that, my guess is they can arrange whatever level of certification they want to pay for from their supervisor.... eg just the foundations.

    It will be interesting to see if banks demand an AC. It could save them a lot of hassle down the line in the case of a default & repossession.


  • #34
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    overshoot wrote: »
    Basically the council are not taking any responsibility, much like BC(A)R put the liability for defects on someone else and away from the public purse. So the status quo will be Kelly's promised "fit for purpose."

    One off self builders will not pay the requsite fee(s) needed for a 3rd party to take on full responsibilty for thier house.
    overshoot wrote: »
    Its the Compliance Cert im wondering about. Sort of sounds like they wont be obliged to demonstrate it without actually being asked. And given the typical Irish attitude....
    Following from that, my guess is they can arrange whatever level of certification they want to pay for from their supervisor.... eg just the foundations.

    When selling they will need certification - that will not change.
    overshoot wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see if banks demand an AC. It could save them a lot of hassle down the line in the case of a default & repossession.

    Banks make money by lending money first and foremost hoping not to lose any to bad debts. When it suits their needs they always find ways to not to lend and also when it suits they lend recklessly. This will not change over the long run.

    In other words when over time the default position is established that the one off self building market reverts to the absolute minimum level of design, 3rd party inspection and supervision it can get away with , banks will serve that market.

    .


  • #35
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    civdef wrote: »
    Alternative means of compliance like that have been available here since the Building Regs were introduced.

    I know I have used them in ireland, my point is however that alternative compliance has a tendency here in Australia to be a costly engineered solution, IMO it will be touted as a lower cost alternative that will end up in a lot of cases not being so.


  • #36
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    civdef wrote: »
    Alternative means of compliance like that have been available here since the Building Regs were introduced.


    Alternative means of compliance - with the requirements of the Technical Guidance Documents -have been available here since the Building Regs were introduced.

    What is being proposed in this years tinkering with buildings and the law is alternative means of compliance with Building Control Regulations.

    What words of clarity do we hope to see .....


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  • #37
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    overshoot wrote: »
    Ok last question... The home owner demonstrates compliance by....?

    ... producing some assembly of design documentation - drawings and calculations. They produce the documents themesleves or hire someone to do it for them.

    I expect so anyway.


  • #38
    overshoot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭overshoot


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    ... producing some assembly of design documentation - drawings and calculations. They produce the documents themesleves or hire someone to do it for them.

    I expect so anyway.
    sorry, thus why i was asking what, if anything would they be obligated to show before being asked. Sorry just the pessimist in me sees a return to building of planning drawings and worry about how they demonstrate it if they are ever inspected. Especially if no one is asking for a certificate of compliance.
    and kceire id be surprised to hear of inspections on 4 projects a year, never mind 40%!


  • #39
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    overshoot wrote: »
    sorry, thus why i was asking what, if anything would they be obligated to show before being asked.

    we have to wait and see what the annual tinker-with-regs document says.


  • #40
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    overshoot wrote: »
    sorry, thus why i was asking what, if anything would they be obligated to show before being asked. Sorry just the pessimist in me sees a return to building of planning drawings and worry about how they demonstrate it if they are ever inspected. Especially if no one is asking for a certificate of compliance.

    Thats why we do not like the new regulations. It will bring back the planning drawing builder, and they may only get supervision if/when inspected or when something goes wrong.
    overshoot wrote: »
    and kceire id be surprised to hear of inspections on 4 projects a year, never mind 40%!

    As i said, thats Dublin, where you are based, there may be alot less inspections.They are official figures released to the DOE for Q2.


  • #41
    MC Goggin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 ✭MC Goggin


    "But bear in mind, if they opt of out an AC appointment, then the LA will not issue a Completion Cert and will note on the register that the dwelling/extension commenced without an AC"

    ....................so?


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  • #42
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,861 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    MC Goggin wrote: »
    "But bear in mind, if they opt of out an AC appointment, then the LA will not issue a Completion Cert and will note on the register that the dwelling/extension commenced without an AC"

    ....................so?

    the repercussions of this will be bourne out by the market

    i think its very logical to predict the market will see no AC = devalued dwelling


  • #43
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    MC Goggin wrote: »
    "But bear in mind, if they opt of out an AC appointment, then the LA will not issue a Completion Cert and will note on the register that the dwelling/extension commenced without an AC"

    ....................so?

    You registered here just to say that?

    *May also mean registered a second username.


  • #44
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the repercussions of this will be bourne out by the market

    i think its very logical to predict the market will see no AC = devalued dwelling

    We shall have to wait and see. I think no AC will be the default mode the majority option. The minority of houses with an AC appointed might command a premium. Maybe.


  • #45
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    We shall have to wait and see. I think no AC will be the default mode the majority option. The minority of houses with an AC appointed might command a premium. Maybe.

    I think as long as you have some sort of supervision, and some sort of quantifiable certificate afterwards, I think future buyers will be happy enough.


  • #46
    stickybookmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭stickybookmark


    The BCMS system will still be used from 1st September but when submitting a commencement notice there will be the option to opt out of the AC part.
    I assume though if the owner gets an engineer to do a cert of compliance with planning at the end of the build (necessary for Land Registry and for Planning office or else you can never sell) that this cert will be accepted and filed into the BCMS system?


  • #47
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    The BCMS system will still be used from 1st September but when submitting a commencement notice there will be the option to opt out of the AC part.
    I assume though if the owner gets an engineer to do a cert of compliance with planning at the end of the build (necessary for Land Registry and for Planning office or else you can never sell) that this cert will be accepted and filed into the BCMS system?

    I think if you opt out of the AC network, there will be no future involvement with the BCMS. so no need to upload documentation, no completion documents and no completion certificate.

    The home owner opted to go at it alone, so it's ups the then to be happy basically, and rightly so in my opinion.


  • #48
    stickybookmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭stickybookmark


    kceire wrote: »
    I think if you opt out of the AC network, there will be no future involvement with the BCMS. so no need to upload documentation, no completion documents and no completion certificate.

    The home owner opted to go at it alone, so it's ups the then to be happy basically, and rightly so in my opinion.

    But pre Bcar you still had to submit a cert of compliance with planning if you wanted to register ownership with the Land resgistry and if you wanted your house to be sellable.

    It's hardly the case that from 1st Sept anyone that opts out of AC will have no mechanism by which they can register a cert of compliance with planning at the end of the build and therefore make their house sellable??


  • #49
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    But pre Bcar you still had to submit a cert of compliance with planning if you wanted to register ownership with the Land resgistry and if you wanted your house to be sellable.

    It's hardly the case that from 1st Sept anyone that opts out of AC will have no mechanism by which they can register a cert of compliance with planning at the end of the build and therefore make their house sellable??

    You didn't have to submit anything of the sort to any local authority.
    Before BCAR, the certificate of compliance remained with the owner. They may have had to be submitted to the banks for final payment or mortgage draw down but The council did not require a copy of any certification.


  • #50
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    Ah ok. I just assumed you had to send it into the planning office/council to show you had complied with planning.

    Nope, never a requirement.


  • #51
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,861 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The pre bcar system was "do i really have to send a commencement notice in? .... I won't bother"


    I predict this will become common place again.


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  • #52
    stickybookmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭stickybookmark


    kceire wrote: »
    You didn't have to submit anything of the sort to any local authority.
    Before BCAR, the certificate of compliance remained with the owner. They may have had to be submitted to the banks for final payment or mortgage draw down but The council did not require a copy of any certification.

    It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.


  • #53
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,861 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.

    Nope, land registry couldn't give a crap about a cert of compliance.

    Banks have learnt in the mean time that they aren't worth the paper their written on either, if they are visual final inspection only.


  • #54
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    It must just be the Land registry and the bank that required/will require a copy of it then.

    Land registry never required them either.


  • #55
    stickybookmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭stickybookmark


    kceire wrote: »
    Land registry never required them either.

    Oh right. A builder told me there were 2 certs on completion in pre-Bcar world:
    - cert of compliance with the planning permission
    - cert of identity for the land registry

    How will the government know to charge someone property tax so if their house is never registered with the land registry


  • #56
    stickybookmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭stickybookmark


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Nope, land registry couldn't give a crap about a cert of compliance.

    Banks have learnt in the mean time that they aren't worth the paper their written on either, if they are visual final inspection only.

    When a pre-Bcar house is sold does anyone come out and double check the cert of compliance was genuine/reflected reality so?


  • #57
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stickybookmark wrote: »
    Oh right. A builder told me there were 2 certs on completion in pre-Bcar world:
    - cert of compliance with the planning permission
    - cert of identity for the land registry

    How will the government know to charge someone property tax so if their house is never registered with the land registry

    Nothing got to do with the council or planning though. Property tax is a self registration process. Registration with land registry is a different and totally separate process to the planning process.
    stickybookmark wrote: »
    When a pre-Bcar house is sold does anyone come out and double check the cert of compliance was genuine/reflected reality so?

    Yes, the guy who supervised and provided the cert for the home owner/builder or the surveyor for the purchaser.


  • #58
    kaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15 ✭kaff


    Hi, I dont have all the 'building jargon' in relation to building a house BUT quick question...we have just started to buld our new house, 2700sq ft I think!! After digging the Foundation out, Engineer said that the soil under the sun room is soft so instead of 18" of concrete - he has advised 24" of concrete! Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks


  • #59
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Do what the engineer says.


  • #60
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,865 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    kaff wrote: »
    Number of builders/advisors are saying that, 24" is mad and the Enginner is only convering himself - any advice please as to what we can do?? Thanks

    Your engineer is the only one qualified to give the correct answer.


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  • #61
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,311 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Its the engineer's call, period.
    It is his PI thats on the line, not your armchair experts who have NO financial liability if wrong.

    However, I suspect you have misunderstood what the 24" means.

    What exactly do you understand by the 24"

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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