Liverpool FC News/Gossip/Rumours Summer '15

BoardsMember · 11-08-2015 02:14PM

Mr.H wrote: »

A defensive midfielder does not fit Rodgers game plan and that is....

...what is wrong with his game plan.

He plays a target man striker, without any width and not a single cross. Plays two box to box midfielders hoping one or other will take defensive responsibility, this is really going to catch up with us against the better teams.

I honestly don't think he know what he wants to do with Benteke.

Chardee MacDennis · 11-08-2015 02:25PM

brevity wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LFCTS/status/631049163803881472

Tony Barrett's full article on Rodgers http://t.co/SxvtQKZq5n

what worries me here is that these are good players another manager will get great performances out of.

If Liverpool are in 6th and look hopeless by xmas does he stay? If he doesnt and we've sold/ostracised a lot of good players, and kept dross like Borini hanging around - we're gonna be shafted.

I suppose reading an article like that has made me realise my true feelings about Rodgers. I thought I was a lot more confident he could succeed. But through that whole article I kept thinking "But the next manager will want those players in our team"...

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 02:29PM

Chardee MacDennis wrote: »

what worries me here is that these are good players another manager will get great performances out of.

If Liverpool are in 6th and look hopeless by xmas does he stay? If he doesnt and we've sold/ostracised a lot of good players, and kept dross like Borini hanging around - we're gonna be shafted.

I suppose reading an article like that has made me relise my true feelings about Rodgers. I thought I was a lot more confident he could succeed. But through that whole article I kept thinking "But the next manager will want those players in our team"...

We can only play 11 players each week. Just because they didn't play against Stoke doesn't mean they will not play all season, we have plenty of games.

To an extent, the 11 picked at Stoke was validated, particularly the defensive selections.

I can't see any reason why we would sell Sakho, Moreno or Lucas though, unless they throw their toys out of the pram because they were benched. We need all three.

Mr.H · 11-08-2015 02:32PM

BoardsMember wrote: »

...what is wrong with his game plan.

He plays a target man striker, without any width and not a single cross. Plays two box to box midfielders hoping one or other will take defensive responsibility, this is really going to catch up with us against the better teams.

I honestly don't think he know what he wants to do with Benteke.

Listen you can give out about Rodgers all you want but its the same game plan or at least the same footballing philosophy that almost won us the league a couple years ago.

Fact is Defensive mids dont fit into attacking teams.

Barca at their best didnt have defensive defenders let alone defensive mids. Bayern's "defensive mids" where Swheinsteiger (however you spell it) and Alonso who are hardly defensive mids

As for your talk about playing a target striker without crosses....................... did you even watch the match??? Its obvious how Benteke was being used.

Ball played to Benteke who lays it on for the creative mids to play one twos.

Milner and Hendo both put in a number of crosses to Beneteke (not from the byline but crosses dont have to only come from there)

Your talking through your own elbow mate

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 02:35PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Listen you can give out about Rodgers all you want but its the same game plan or at least the same footballing philosophy that almost won us the league a couple years ago.

Fact is Defensive mids dont fit into attacking teams.

Barca at their best didnt have defensive defenders let alone defensive mids. Bayern's "defensive mids" where Swheinsteiger (however you spell it) and Alonso who are hardly defensive mids

As for your talk about playing a target striker without crosses....................... did you even watch the match??? Its obvious how Benteke was being used.

Ball played to Benteke who lays it on for the creative mids to play one twos.

Milner and Hendo both put in a number of crosses to Beneteke (not from the byline but crosses dont have to only come from there)

Your talking through your own elbow mate

Busquets is the best defensive midfielder of the last 15 years and has been a big part of Barcelona's success.

Chardee MacDennis · 11-08-2015 02:37PM

whatawaster wrote: »

We can only play 11 players each week. Just because they didn't play against Stoke doesn't mean they will not play all season, we have plenty of games.

To an extent, the 11 picked at Stoke was validated, particularly the defensive selections.

I can't see any reason why we would sell Sakho, Moreno or Lucas though, unless they throw their toys out of the pram because they were benched. We need all three.

is that not the gist of the article, these players are first team quality players, they are not in Rodgers' plans, they may all try to leave due to this...

googled eyes · 11-08-2015 02:39PM

Didn't see this at the weekend. But Sakho tried to do a Reina with Glen at the weekend

Stop it lad... Stop

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 02:41PM

googled eyes wrote: »

Didn't see this at the weekend. But Sakho tried to do a Reina with Glen at the weekend

Stop it lad... Stop

That's why he was dropped.

Mr.H · 11-08-2015 02:47PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Busquets is the best defensive midfielder of the last 15 years and has been a big part of Barcelona's success.

To play at Barcelona..........................

Busquets is an average defensive mid at best. He is a GREAT midfielder but saying he is the best def mid in the last 15 years is just wrong.

Your telling me that Busquets is better than
Viera
DeRossi
Makélélé
Gennaro Gattuso
Essien

Come off it mate. Busquets isnt even the best def mid right now let alone the last 15 years

Vidal
Gundogan
Gustavo
Javi Martinez (even if he is played out of position)

They are all better than him at the defensive side of the game.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Barca did not rely on "Defensive" defensive midfielders when they where at their best under Pep

billymitchell · 11-08-2015 02:53PM

Mr.H wrote: »

To play at Barcelona..........................

Busquets is an average defensive mid at best. He is a GREAT midfielder but saying he is the best def mid in the last 15 years is just wrong.

Your telling me that Busquets is better than
Viera
DeRossi
Makélélé
Gennaro Gattuso
Essien

Come off it mate. Busquets isnt even the best def mid right now let alone the last 15 years

Vidal
Gundogan
Gustavo
Javi Martinez (even if he is played out of position)

They are all better than him at the defensive side of the game.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Barca did not rely on "Defensive" defensive midfielders when they where at their best under Pep

Same as we didn't really need one when we had Suarez , Sturridge and Sterling keeping teams honest at the other end of the pitch. It forces teams to keep an extra player or two back when you have world class players at the other end of the pitch, lessening the need for a DM.
We dont have that luxury at the moment, so we do need to have good , defensive minded players in our team. The question is, are Milner and Henderson up to the job?

brevity · 11-08-2015 02:53PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I think you are completely missing the point.

Lucas doesnt need to run about like Hendo and Milner??

- Yes he does
They dont just run around like headless chickens you know. They constantly press players and force oppositions to conceded possession further up the field. Rather than concede a free kick on the edge of our own area. That is the point in "running about".

Lucas sits back and reads the game and then tries to win the ball close to our area. The issue is if he mistimes the challenge (and often does by the way) it may stop an attack but it gives away a free kick in a good area where we concede a lot of goals from set pieces.

A defensive midfielder does not fit Rodgers game plan and that is why Lucas leaving is a non issue.

Lucas (despite how much I love him) has been at fault as often if not more than Allen and I doubt many would worry about Allen leaving.

Lucas is replaceable but wont be replaced with a defensive rock

The way I see it is that Can, Henderson & Milner sit somewhere in front of Lucas. They are able to play in that position (DM) but are not as good as Lucas. Their strengths like in pressing further up, Henderson was great at this when Suarez was there. I think Henderson gets confused when forced to play in the DM role. He is easily dragged out of postion.

Can's strengths lie in driving forward with the ball and releasing it to runners. Like we saw in the U-21's. Hendo can do this too as can Milner. If we put Can into a DM position we are putting him into a position where we dont get the best of him.

Milner is a like Henderson but can play on the wing. Even though he doesnt like playing on the wing. (Gerrard replacement right?

)

Lucas does give away free kicks yes, but he has to break up the rythm of the attacking team. This allows for bodies to get back and help. I agree we need to improve on defence from set pieces but Lucas' job is to stop them getting past him, there has to be a degree of resposiblity on the people behind him.

I also agree that a DM is not in Rodgers game plan and I think this could be his downfall. If we are to play with flying fullbacks (though I think Rodgers might change this judging by what whatawaster said he heard - Rodgers telling Gomez not to go too far forward) then we the defence need help. Especially since we are constantly leaking goals.

brevity · 11-08-2015 02:55PM

Mr.H wrote: »

To play at Barcelona..........................

Busquets is an average defensive mid at best. He is a GREAT midfielder but saying he is the best def mid in the last 15 years is just wrong.

Your telling me that Busquets is better than
Viera
DeRossi
Makélélé
Gennaro Gattuso
Essien

Come off it mate. Busquets isnt even the best def mid right now let alone the last 15 years

Vidal
Gundogan
Gustavo
Javi Martinez (even if he is played out of position)

They are all better than him at the defensive side of the game.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Barca did not rely on "Defensive" defensive midfielders when they where at their best under Pep

What ever about the Lucas thing, you are waaaay off here imo. Gattuso???

D'Agger · 11-08-2015 02:58PM

In fairness to Sahko, that's a great joke

"Put this on Glen, pretend you're still an LFC player....naaah, forgot you're shít ked"

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 02:59PM

Mr.H wrote: »

To play at Barcelona..........................

Busquets is an average defensive mid at best. He is a GREAT midfielder but saying he is the best def mid in the last 15 years is just wrong.

What makes him great then, if not his defensive awareness, his ability to break up play, his ability to keep the ball in tight situations and start off attacking moves?

Your telling me that Busquets is better than
Viera
DeRossi
Makélélé
Gennaro Gattuso
Essien

Apart from Makelele, the rest of them are box to box midfielders. Makelele is probably next best imo, but a completely different player.

Come off it mate. Busquets isnt even the best def mid right now let alone the last 15 years

Vidal
Gundogan
Gustavo
Javi Martinez (even if he is played out of position)

They are all better than him at the defensive side of the game.

I couldn't disagree more.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Barca did not rely on "Defensive" defensive midfielders when they where at their best under Pep

Barca relied on having 70% possession of the ball as their main line of defense. But when the did lose the ball and Alves and Abidal were in the opposition half, Busquets, playing the defensive midfield position, was absolutely crucial to their success.

He's a world class DM and because of him, another world class DM (Mascherano) has had to adapt to become a CB at club level.

googled eyes · 11-08-2015 03:03PM

The next photo shows just how worried Lovren was ....

"Stop Momo, he'll get ideas"

Mr.H · 11-08-2015 03:04PM

brevity wrote: »

What ever about the Lucas thing, you are waaaay off here imo. Gattuso???

Maybe but thats the beauty about the game we all have our opinions

The thing I always have about Busquets is that he is really good at the defensive side and he is handy even going forward. He is well able to pass the ball and is rarely caught out of position. The thing is that he is the exact same as Yaya Toure. He isnt actually a "great" defensive midfielder or playmaker. He is just a really good midfielder that is adapt at more than one job.

If he came to the Premiership he would be a monster. But he is far from one of the best defensive mids in the game right now or in the last 10 15 or even 20 years.

For example:
Viera, DeRossi, Makélélé, Gattuso, Essien

I dont think that any of them are as good as Busquets as all round midfielders. But They are all better at being defensive mids.

the same as Gerrard was a better all round player than Lamps but Lamps is a better attacking mid than Gerrard.

as for Gattuso............... DO you not remember him in his prime???? I mean f'n hell he was unbelievable. The man was a monster in def midfield (in a team full of def midfielders

)

Mr.H · 11-08-2015 03:14PM

whatawaster wrote: »

What makes him great then, if not his defensive awareness, his ability to break up play, his ability to keep the ball in tight situations and start off attacking moves?

His all round game. The fact that he is better at the breaking down play than Xavi Cesc and Iniesta is what gave him his game.

But they are not exactly defensive mids!

whatawaster wrote: »

Apart from Makelele, the rest of them are box to box midfielders. Makelele is probably next best imo, but a completely different player.

Viera and Essien were def mids in all regards

they may have been used as box to box on occasion but that is like saying Hamann was a box to box player

whatawaster wrote: »

Barca relied on having 70% possession of the ball as their main line of defense. But when the did lose the ball and Alves and Abidal were in the opposition half, Busquets, playing the defensive midfield position, was absolutely crucial to their success.

He's a world class DM and because of him, another world class DM (Mascherano) has had to adapt to become a CB at club level.

Alves was a right winger when he went there
Masherano a def mid
Alba a left mid
Adriano a winger

Point is thats what Barca do. They put midfielders in def positions because of what your alluding to.

Masherano was never signed for midfield. He was always there top play center back with Pique. Puyol staying longer is the only reason he wasnt there from day one.

Also because of the fact that Barca have so much possession is the reason they can afford to have an average def midfielder playing as long as he is good at the passing side of the game which Song was not, hence not being kept around.

If Busquets was playing that position for Chelsea he would be found out very very fast

LuckyLloyd · 11-08-2015 03:31PM

The two English previous league champions have featured sitting midfielders shielding their back four and providing a base. In CL terms, Real and Juve had QB type playmakers back there (Alonso / Pirlo) while Athletico and Barcelona had DMs.

I'm not sure Milner / Henderson / Can / Allen ably fill either role in the way Gerrard / Lucas alternatively could.

Managers can have preferences, and fans might not appreciate midfielders who lack versatility but so long as the big trophies are being won utilising such players it's mighty premature to write them off.

Agent Coulson · 11-08-2015 03:37PM

If we are light anywhere on the pitch it is in CM.

Milner, Henderson, Allen & Can is no where near strong enough.

Keeping Lucas should be a must alongside bringing in one more CM.

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 03:38PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If we are light anywhere on the pitch it is in CM.

Milner, Henderson, Allen & Can is no where near strong enough.

Keeping Lucas should be a must alongside bringing in one more CM.

No way do we need 6 central midfielders if we are only playing 2 at a time.

Utopia Parkway · 11-08-2015 03:40PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

If we are light anywhere on the pitch it is in CM.

Milner, Henderson, Allen & Can is no where near strong enough.

Keeping Lucas should be a must alongside bringing in one more CM.

6 central midfielders seems a tad much to be honest. Even with all the games to play that's a lot of players to try and keep happy.

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 03:42PM

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

6 central midfielders seems a tad much to be honest. Even with all the games to play that's a lot of players to try and keep happy.

It would be fine if we played 3 central midfielders.

But if we played 3 central midfielders we could only accomodate 3 from Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Ibe, Markovic, Ings, Origi, Benteke, Sturridge. That's 9 players, 4 or 5 of whom would almost never play.

Agent Coulson · 11-08-2015 03:46PM

We have 5 CB's for 2 places.

Lovren, Sakho, Toure, Skrtel & Ilori

We have 9/10 forward players for 3 places.

Sturidge, Benteke, Origi, Ings, Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho, Ibe, Markovic & Balotelli.

I really don't see having 6 CM's as an issue when 1/2 of them are dedicated DM's needed for certain games.

We are told it is a squad game these days.

klose · 11-08-2015 03:55PM

Lucas will be replaced if he is sold, you could also count coutinho as a possible cm too.

Utopia Parkway · 11-08-2015 03:56PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

We have 5 CB's for 2 places.

Lovren, Sakho, Toure, Skrtel & Ilori

We have 9/10 forward players for 3 places.

Sturidge, Benteke, Origi, Ings, Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho, Ibe, Markovic & Balotelli.

I really don't see having 6 CM's as an issue when 1/2 of them are dedicated DM's needed for certain games.

We are told it is a squad game these days.

Well we have 5 now and one is already unhappy about the amount of game time he's getting. Don't really think we need Lucas plus a new central midfielder. If Lucas does go though he'll need to be replaced.

8-10 · 11-08-2015 03:58PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

We have 5 CB's for 2 places.

Lovren, Sakho, Toure, Skrtel & Ilori

That's a depressing enough group tbf. I'd only be comfortable with Skrtel and Sakho from that group

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 03:58PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

We have 5 CB's for 2 places.

Lovren, Sakho, Toure, Skrtel & Ilori

Doubt Ilori is in our first team plans

We have 9/10 forward players for 3 places.

Sturidge, Benteke, Origi, Ings, Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho, Ibe, Markovic & Balotelli.

9 players. Balotelli is not in our plans and it's probably 9 players for 4 places.

I really don't see having 6 CM's as an issue when 1/2 of them are dedicated DM's needed for certain games.

We are told it is a squad game these days.

If the squad is too bloated there are a number of issues. Players don't gametime so they stagnate, lose sharpness, drop in value and morale worsens.

Bandana boy · 11-08-2015 04:08PM

Gattuso was the Italian player of the tornament when they won the World Cup in 2006and was voted by the players into the All star team at that tournament.
His work as a DM allowed Pirlo free reign for both Italy and Milan all through the noughties

He was an oustanding DM and at his peak was in nearly all realistic world XIs he certainly was part of any real conversation about best Dms in the world.

Agent Coulson · 11-08-2015 04:11PM

Our midfielder also didn't look good as 2 at the weekend.

It took Can coming on making it a 3 before we looked like we took full control.

So for me having a replacement for each of those 3 is fine.

whatawaster · 11-08-2015 04:15PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Our midfielder also didn't look good as 2 at the weekend.

It took Can coming on making it a 3 before we looked like we took full control.

So for me having a replacement for each of those 3 is fine.

Wouldn't read too much into one match.

Every time we win a match, there are cries of "we have to play this formation for the rest of the season" or "this player must start every match from now on"

Liverpool FC News/Gossip/Rumours Summer '15

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