New PPS number - is job required first before getting PPS number?

leck · 07-08-2015 01:17PM #1

A friend who is an Irish citizen but was born in the US seems to be going around in circles trying to get a PPS number. He moved here last month and is living with him parents who moved back to Ireland about eight years ago. He has the necessary documentation to get the PPS number:
(1) Irish passport - for proof of Irish citizenship, proof of identity and photo ID
(2) Utility bill - this is in the name of his parents where he is now living and has been signed off on by both of them. This item for proof of address

He wants to apply for a driving licence but can't as a PPS is required.

He wants to open a bank account but can't as a PPS is required.

He said he visited the Dept Social Protection office in Ennis (prob the Intreo office) and was told he couldn't apply for a PPS without having a job. He has also been told elsewhere that he can't apply for a job without have a PPS number.

Dept Social Protection site says "Before you can be allocated a PPS Number, you must show that you need one for a transaction with a specified body." There is a long list of such bodies, including educational institutions. Will he have to go some roundabout route in order to get a PPS number? If it's true that a PPS number is needed to open a bank account, could he just say that he needs a PPS number for that purpose and have one issued?

Anyone know of a solution?

Mrs OBumble · 07-08-2015 01:32PM

Is the RSA on the long list of specified bodies?

If so, then he just says he wants to apply for one so he can apply for a DL.

If not, then find some excuse to engage with one of the other bodies, and give that as the reason.

Funkfield · 07-08-2015 01:37PM

Banks aren't a specified body. They might ask for a PPS but they can't demand one.
For a driving licence he may need evidence he is actually in the process of applying.

Why would he need to go in a roundabout way? Does he not have a legitimate need for one? If he does he should have problem proving it.

seamus · 07-08-2015 01:53PM

He should tell them he wants to make an application for JSA, so needs a PPSN in order to interact with their own department.

However, whoever has told him that he can't apply for a job with a PPSN is completely wrong.

I have never once had to supply a PPSN when applying for a job. And if I was asked for it, I would refuse. An employer only requires a PPSN when they are hiring you.

Maybe someone assumed by his accent that he wasn't Irish and told him that he would need it?

leck · 07-08-2015 02:40PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Is the RSA on the long list of specified bodies?

If so, then he just says he wants to apply for one so he can apply for a DL.

If not, then find some excuse to engage with one of the other bodies, and give that as the reason.

Good idea. I didn't think of that. The RSA is not listed in its own right but it must be a part of one of the listed bodies.

Funkfield wrote: »

Banks aren't a specified body. They might ask for a PPS but they can't demand one.
For a driving licence he may need evidence he is actually in the process of applying.

Why would he need to go in a roundabout way? Does he not have a legitimate need for one? If he does he should have problem proving it.

I just mean roundabout as in he has been told that he can't just get one by asking for one. He was told that he must first have a job. Yes, he has a legitimate need for one. He presumed his first step here would be to get a PPS number, then use that to apply for driving licence and work.

seamus wrote: »

He should tell them he wants to make an application for JSA, so needs a PPSN in order to interact with their own department.

However, whoever has told him that he can't apply for a job with a PPSN is completely wrong.

I have never once had to supply a PPSN when applying for a job. And if I was asked for it, I would refuse. An employer only requires a PPSN when they are hiring you.

Maybe someone assumed by his accent that he wasn't Irish and told him that he would need it?

Yes, it might have been the accent. I'll suggest the he apply for the JSA. I'm guessing he will have to fill in a lot of paperwork to meet the habitual residency requirement.

bisounours · 08-08-2015 11:40AM

Are Intreo offices run differently in different counties? I showed up with my French ID card, and a copy of my work contract as I didn't have any utility bills in my name (I asked my employer to address the contract to a Dublin address) and it was accepted. I don't work for a government agency, nor is my employer on the "accepted list"

Funny thing is, the bank wouldn't accept the PPS letter nor Revenue letter as proof of address - it had to be a utility bill!

summonerm · 08-08-2015 06:59PM

As far as I know, you can't get a PPS number without having a job.

Regarding a bank account, there's no general rule, some banks will ask for PPS, some won't. But he needs to have a proof of address in means of a utility bill. This is a first hand info.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-08-2015 07:41PM

A friend was in a similar boat.
He and his daughter got a pps without a job whereas his wife needed a job first as she wasn't an EU citizen.

Mrs OBumble · 08-08-2015 08:30PM

summonerm wrote: »

As far as I know, you can't get a PPS number without having a job.

You used to be able to.

Lately we're hearing reports in this forum that you can't - or perhaps that non Irish citizens can't. It may be an official policy, or may just be something that some Welfare / Intreo offices are enforcing.

It's a PITA, though, because some employers (mainly UK chains) insist on collecting PPS number at job application time, and won't let you apply without one.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-08-2015 08:33PM

I called up both my local intreo and the office in Parnell st to be told its policy.
Nom EU citizens need to show they have a job first before getting a pps.

Funkfield · 10-08-2015 08:27AM

Giana Quaint Owl wrote: »

I called up both my local intreo and the office in Parnell st to be told its policy.
Nom EU citizens need to show they have a job first before getting a pps.

Not a job. They'd need a valid reason for applying. Having a job works as you will need the pps for Revenue. Check the list of specified bodies. If you have proof you'll be transacting with one of them itd be grand. Doesn't matter where you're from.

Mrs OBumble · 10-08-2015 10:04AM

It's quite possible that Intreo have decided to apply a policy that non-EU people need a job. It's silly, of course: there are reasons why non-EU citizens who are legally resident here but cannot get jobs might need a PPS. Eg Americans whose spouse is on a visa for work/study at a university, but who themselves are not allowed to work - but who are allowed to apply for a Driving License.

If people do run into problems with this policy, maybe visit Citizen's Information, and ask them to help you negotiate with Intreo.

seamus · 10-08-2015 10:34AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's quite possible that Intreo have decided to apply a policy that non-EU people need a job.

I'm not sure if it's Intreo, it's on the DSP's website:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN.aspx

Before you can be allocated a PPS Number, you must show that you need one for a transaction with a specified body. For example, if you are taking up employment, you need a PPS Number to register with the Revenue Commissioners. However, looking for work is not a transaction with a specified body and employers should not look for your PPS Number when recruiting. An employer should only seek a PPS Number if you are actually taking up employment with the organisation.

I know there was a lot of consternation in years past about new PPSNs just blithely flying out the door to any who applied, and they expanded the number range in 2013 because they were running out. So maybe they changed the rules in 2013 as well to prevent anyone landing in the country from just applying for a PPSN as a matter of routine, and instead holding onto the pool of PPSNs for those who actually need them?

Mrs OBumble · 10-08-2015 01:44PM

Two issues with that.

One is that Intreo may be ignoring the "transaction with a specified body" part, and saying "only if you have a job", ie ignoring all other transactions. We don't know for sure that is is happening - but I would hazard a guess that it is.

The second is that some large companies obviously have a different view. They ask for a PPS and will not let you apply for a job without one. No amount of quoting the DSP website will change that.

seamus · 10-08-2015 06:00PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The second is that some large companies obviously have a different view. They ask for a PPS and will not let you apply for a job without one. No amount of quoting the DSP website will change that.

This seems bizarre. Illegal, in fact, in most cases.

I wonder if some HR people hear an American accent and ask the person for their PPSN, effectively bypassing the awkward, "Are you legal to work here" question, which could have you accused of racism.

I know I've spoken to HR people who are terrified to even discuss the matter of nationality with a candidate regardless of the person's nationality.

bisounours · 10-08-2015 06:39PM

seamus wrote: »

"Are you legal to work here"

Or phrased more delicately : are you authorised to work in this country?

In every online job application I have ever done this seems to be a standard question - no need for a human being to gather up the courage to ask!

sparkling sea · 10-08-2015 08:09PM

leck wrote: »

A friend who is an Irish citizen but was born in the US seems to be going around in circles trying to get a PPS number. He moved here last month and is living with him parents who moved back to Ireland about eight years ago. He has the necessary documentation to get the PPS number:
(1) Irish passport - for proof of Irish citizenship, proof of identity and photo ID
(2) Utility bill - this is in the name of his parents where he is now living and has been signed off on by both of them. This item for proof of address

He wants to apply for a driving licence but can't as a PPS is required.

He wants to open a bank account but can't as a PPS is required.

He said he visited the Dept Social Protection office in Ennis (prob the Intreo office) and was told he couldn't apply for a PPS without having a job. He has also been told elsewhere that he can't apply for a job without have a PPS number.

Dept Social Protection site says "Before you can be allocated a PPS Number, you must show that you need one for a transaction with a specified body." There is a long list of such bodies, including educational institutions. Will he have to go some roundabout route in order to get a PPS number? If it's true that a PPS number is needed to open a bank account, could he just say that he needs a PPS number for that purpose and have one issued?

Anyone know of a solution?

Your friend has been misinformed, employment is not connected to a Personal Public Service (PPS) number. An example is all children born in Ireland are given a PPS number.

From Citizens Info web site; maybe they could print this off
To get a PPS Number, you will need to fill out an application form and provide proof of your identity.

If you are an Irish citizen born in Ireland, you will need to produce the following documents:

The long version of your birth certificate

And

Photographic ID, such as your passport or driving licence

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill (electricity, telephone, gas, etc.) in your name.

If you are an Irish citizen via naturalisation or Foreign Birth Registration you will need to produce the following documents:

Your current passport or Certificate of Naturalisation

or

Your Foreign Birth Registration certificate and Irish or UK driving licence or Irish learner driving permit

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

If you are a UK citizen, you will need to produce the following documents:

Current passport

or

Your birth certificate showing your mother’s birth name or adoption certificate and current driving licence

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

You don't need to be an Irish Citizen or to have a job to get a PPS number

If you are not Irish, you will need to produce the following documents:

EU/EEA citizen - Your passport or national identity card
Non EU/EEA citizen - Your passport

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

Funkfield · 11-08-2015 08:29AM

sparkling sea wrote: »

Your friend has been misinformed, employment is not connected to a Personal Public Service (PPS) number. An example is all children born in Ireland are given a PPS number.

From Citizens Info web site; maybe they could print this off
To get a PPS Number, you will need to fill out an application form and provide proof of your identity.

If you are an Irish citizen born in Ireland, you will need to produce the following documents:

The long version of your birth certificate

And

Photographic ID, such as your passport or driving licence

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill (electricity, telephone, gas, etc.) in your name.

If you are an Irish citizen via naturalisation or Foreign Birth Registration you will need to produce the following documents:

Your current passport or Certificate of Naturalisation

or

Your Foreign Birth Registration certificate and Irish or UK driving licence or Irish learner driving permit

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

If you are a UK citizen, you will need to produce the following documents:

Current passport

or

Your birth certificate showing your mother’s birth name or adoption certificate and current driving licence

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

You don't need to be an Irish Citizen or to have a job to get a PPS number

If you are not Irish, you will need to produce the following documents:

EU/EEA citizen - Your passport or national identity card
Non EU/EEA citizen - Your passport

And

Evidence of your address, such as a household bill in your name.

Only problem is Citizens Info don't allocate PPS numbers so their info is not accurate in this case. You will need to prove that you are going to be transacting with a specified body.

Mrs OBumble · 11-08-2015 10:31AM

seamus wrote: »

This seems bizarre. Illegal, in fact, in most cases.

I wonder if some HR people hear an American accent and ask the person for their PPSN, effectively bypassing the awkward, "Are you legal to work here" question, which could have you accused of racism.

I know I've spoken to HR people who are terrified to even discuss the matter of nationality with a candidate regardless of the person's nationality.

Nothing to do with accents. The companies that do this mostly use on-line systems, and PPS is a required field before you can click the Submit button on the application form.

And HR people should never discuss nationality - the only relevant question is "Are you eligible to work here? Please show the evidence of this."

New PPS number - is job required first before getting PPS number?

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