DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

KillianByrne · 04-08-2015 09:52PM

aquinn wrote: »

Here I am, I've done it. I've read all posts and am finally up-to-date, so proud!

Wow 83 days to go people.

Frash/Neil welcome back lads! I thought the disturbing picture last year was Killian Byrne, don't remember Neil's thankfully.

OK, what did I do last year?

FeenaM · 04-08-2015 10:11PM

Can somebody stick me down for the 14m lsr at either 9/10 min/m pace, thanks.

Singer · 04-08-2015 10:34PM

FeenaM wrote: »

Can somebody stick me down for the 14m lsr at either 9/10 min/m pace, thanks.

Mrs Mc · 04-08-2015 10:50PM

Singer wrote: »

Name|12miles9/10/11m/mi|14miles 9/10/11m/mi
Dubgal| where needed | where needed
Neil... | |10m/mi
Toulouse| 11m/mi |
Singer| | 9m/mi |
ZV Yoda| 9m/mi |
Denis | | 10m/mi
Mrs Mc| | 11m/mi
FeenaM| | 9/10m/mi

Singer think you updated an earlier one PJD gone missing I can't add it up for some reason he was 14 miles at 10 m miles

PJD · 04-08-2015 10:57PM

Thanks Mrs Mc! Thought I was getting a free day off!

FBOT01 · 04-08-2015 11:01PM

nop98 · 05-08-2015 12:28AM

diego_b wrote: »

Wrong side of the country for me this weekend as well unfortunately, hopefully can catch the next one ye do. I might be able to make Sat 26th September for the 20 mile LSR if people are getting together up Dublin way for that.

+1! I'll be on holidays from Saturday* but I am up for meeting up for the 20M on Sep 26. HHN1 is doing 14M that weekend so we can try to combine.

*much agonizing about how/when to get all the runs in :eek:

FeenaM · 05-08-2015 07:54AM

Any thoughts on the route for Saturday? We could try cover a chunk of the actual dcm route through castleknock and up to islandbridge?

Actually while we are on this topic, i run on grass/trail nearly all the time. Do you think i need more practice on road to prepare for dcm or am i best to stick with grass where possible and have a better chance at staying injury free?

FeenaM · 05-08-2015 07:54AM

Any thoughts on the route for Saturday? We could try cover a chunk of the actual dcm route through castleknock and up to islandbridge?

Actually while we are on this topic, i run on grass/trail nearly all the time. Do you think i need more practice on road to prepare for dcm or am i best to stick with grass where possible and have a better chance at staying injury free?

Dubgal72 · 05-08-2015 08:31AM

FeenaM wrote: »

Actually while we are on this topic, i run on grass/trail nearly all the time. Do you think i need more practice on road to prepare for dcm or am i best to stick with grass where possible and have a better chance at staying injury free?

Normal service resumed

Morning FeenaM. We had a similar discussion with Ronan a good few pages back. The feedback was that it is advisable to work within the theory of race specificity. This means that you should train for what you will race; ie road race = train on road.
I'm not sure that you should jump into a 14 mile lsr on road though. How much road running have you been doing? FBOT or meno, any thoughts on this?

FeenaM · 05-08-2015 08:43AM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Normal service resumed

Morning FeenaM. We had a similar discussion with Ronan a good few pages back. The feedback was that it is advisable to work within the theory of race specificity. This means that you should train for what you will race; ie road race = train on road.
I'm not sure that you should jump into a 14 mile lsr on road though. How much road running have you been doing? FBOT or meno, any thoughts on this?

Sorry, missed that discussion. I have done most of my recent races on road (race series) and then the R&R for most of it and felt fine after all of them but everything else has pretty much been grass/trail :-0

ZV Yoda · 05-08-2015 08:48AM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Normal service resumed

Morning FeenaM. We had a similar discussion with Ronan a good few pages back. The feedback was that it is advisable to work within the theory of race specificity. This means that you should train for what you will race; ie road race = train on road.
I'm not sure that you should jump into a 14 mile lsr on road though. How much road running have you been doing? FBOT or meno, any thoughts on this?

Just to add...

I asked a physio about this a few weeks back. His advice was that running on grass is better (in theory) than running on concrete BUT only if the grass is short and the ground is even & soft. His view was that this is rarely the case, and that the reality is that uneven grassy surfaces increase the risk of falls / twisted ankles. He also recommended plenty of concrete running for DCM, since the course is primarily concrete.

Personally, I try to mix it up where possible (to avoid repetitive strain / impact damage). I'd say the ratio for me is roughly 70% concrete / tarmac + 20% grass + 10% gravel.

eyeball kid · 05-08-2015 09:07AM

PJD wrote: »

Ah here. What about us metric fools?? I can't find the table published earlier. I will be aiming for a 4.30 marathon with roughly a 6.30 minute km.....help! Still haven't worked out my optimum LSR.... But I will be there on Saturday!!

The Imperial to Metric table is in the online training plan under the Pace Calculator tab.

frash · 05-08-2015 09:08AM

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Just to add...

I asked a physio about this a few weeks back. His advice was that running on grass is better (in theory) than running on concrete BUT only if the grass is short and the ground is even & soft. His view was that this is rarely the case, and that the reality is that uneven grassy surfaces increase the risk of falls / twisted ankles. He also recommended plenty of concrete running for DCM, since the course is primarily concrete.

Personally, I try to mix it up where possible (to avoid repetitive strain / impact damage). I'd say the ratio for me is roughly 70% concrete / tarmac + 20% grass + 10% gravel.

More tarmac really - don't think that's as bad on the knees as concrete

aquinn · 05-08-2015 09:20AM

KillianByrne wrote: »

OK, what did I do last year?

You thought you'd found your marathon day outfit, green t shirt if I remember. One long run you arrived back with bloody nipples and so a very ruined t shirt which put that plan out the window but posted a photo for us all to be horrified. In fairness this is how I found you at the start line of the Dublin half.

I take it you are doing 70.3 this weekend? Enjoy if so.

Pink11 · 05-08-2015 09:53AM

Hey everyone,

Hope everyone is keeping well. Think I've read most of the replies, seems like everyone is doing well. Hope all physio appointments are going well. I have the slightest very dull ache in my knee sometimes when I run. So going to mention it at my check up at the doctors appointment tomorrow. See if they recommend I take it further. Must update google docs now with my running logs.

RNR Dublin Half 2015 - quick thoughts:

Amazing event. Dubsgal I tried to run slow, I really did and I held back so much, took it nice and easy and stopped for water breaks. Still finished in a good time I was shocked! Under 2 hours. Way better than my shocking Clontarf performance!

What a great race. My favourite of the year so far. So well organised and great atmosphere. The last 5km were tough - probably cos I knew that part of the course so well. Those hills and twists!

A few people stopped running in the last km and started walking, I know what it's like to just have your legs quit on you. I gave a few as I passed by, a pat on the back and said 'you're nearly there'.

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

Yes. I cried.

That is so cute! Well done you! Sounds like it gave you a massive confidence boost on top of everything. I'm glad to read you enjoyed yourself.

I actually keep thinking about your really kind words you gave to me a few weeks back. You're right - when we train - we're tired and not rested. When we race, we're well rested and prepared. It's so true. And we're all way better at this stage than we give ourselves credit for.

I signed up for the DCM about 10 mins before midnight on July 31st haha! Before the price hike. I ended up paying 6euro extra to get my name and time engraved on the medal. I don't normally but it's my first marathon so think it'll be worth it. Plus it's much cheaper to pay for that now rather than later! There is also a booking fee of 3 euro so I ended up adding another 9 euro to the overall fee.

denis b · 05-08-2015 10:43AM

FeenaM wrote: »

Any thoughts on the route for Saturday? We could try cover a chunk of the actual dcm route through castleknock and up to islandbridge?

Actually while we are on this topic, i run on grass/trail nearly all the time. Do you think i need more practice on road to prepare for dcm or am i best to stick with grass where possible and have a better chance at staying injury free?

The only other thing that springs to mind is running the upcoming Frank Duffy 10 Mile circuit for prep. Would be easy to add in a loop to finish your particular LSR.

I have no strong preferences at all. Priority for this LSR is some company for a pleasant change.

On the second topic of surface I would tend to run more on tarmac (80%) for this marathon and the vast majority of my LSR's will be on tarmac.....our surface of choice for the 26th!! I would imagine that suitable modern runners are much more accommodating for preventing injuries in general. Must admit that I do find it hard to avoid an odd trail run to sharpen the concentration and keep them toes tapping.....Flatleyesque like!!!!

donglen · 05-08-2015 10:45AM

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

Speaking of running on holidays, can I get your opinion?

I'm going to visit a friend in Sweden but have a 12 mile LSR scheduled for Sunday which I don't want to miss. What's the best way to go about it? Run it early in the morning (i.e 6am!) to get it out of the way and risk being wrecked the rest of the day? Skip it? :eek: Break it into two runs?

What would you do? Keep in mind my long runs are upwards of 2 and half to 3 hours long!

Unsure what the temperature is in Sweden at the moment but right nowI'm in Majorca, I'm poolside, life is good.
Running in the heat is tough! I don't know how those Kenyan's do it!!
Did 5 miles this morning, left the apartment at 7am,one of those street clocks advised it was 27 degrees. Gulp!
Took it handy, first 4 miles were enjoyable,last mile though felt as if I had the energy sucked out of me and reverted to a little bit of walking to just finish the route.
Unsure if anyone here can offer advice on this one: I have noticed before that when I get extremely hot I tend to get a pins and needles type sensation in my face, it can occasionally even happen if I'm in a Sauna/steam-room and it'll usually ease off in 5 minutes once I remove myself from that particular cause. Anyway it happened again towards the end of the run this morning, I'm thinking it's down to the body over-heating, anyone any experience of this?
The 12 miler scheduled on Saturday in the heat has me a little worried because of this, at the moment I'm thinking I'll probably scale it back a bit to be safe. Either way I think I'll have to set the alarm for a 5am start and try to locate some water vending machines on route. Also, I think I'll need to seriously up my water intake each day. I'll do another slow 4/5 miler before the LSR to see how that one goes.
It's one for me to ponder further over a cool San Miguel.

chrislad · 05-08-2015 10:48AM

A quick question - The Frank Duffy race is on the Boards plan. I won't be doing it. Would it be better for me to a) do the run by myself (ie 1 mile w/u 10 mile marathon pace, 1 mile c/d) or b) do a longer LSR instead? I am doing the half marathon on the 19th Sept.

Toulouse · 05-08-2015 11:06AM

denis b wrote: »

The only other thing that springs to mind is running the upcoming Frank Duffy 10 Mile circuit for prep. Would be easy to add in a loop to finish your particular LSR.

I have no strong preferences at all. Priority for this LSR is some company for a pleasant change

Yeah, I'd like to do the 10 Mile route for prep too seeing as we'll be in the park.

This Fat Girl Runs · 05-08-2015 11:24AM

donglen wrote: »

Unsure what the temperature is in Sweden at the moment but right nowI'm in Majorca, I'm poolside, life is good.
Running in the heat is tough! I don't know how those Kenyan's do it!!
Did 5 miles this morning, left the apartment at 7am,one of those street clocks advised it was 27 degrees. Gulp!
Took it handy, first 4 miles were enjoyable,last mile though felt as if I had the energy sucked out of me and reverted to a little bit of walking to just finish the route.
Unsure if anyone here can offer advice on this one: I have noticed before that when I get extremely hot I tend to get a pins and needles type sensation in my face, it can occasionally even happen if I'm in a Sauna/steam-room and it'll usually ease off in 5 minutes once I remove myself from that particular cause. Anyway it happened again towards the end of the run this morning, I'm thinking it's down to the body over-heating, anyone any experience of this?
The 12 miler scheduled on Saturday in the heat has me a little worried because of this, at the moment I'm thinking I'll probably scale it back a bit to be safe. Either way I think I'll have to set the alarm for a 5am start and try to locate some water vending machines on route. Also, I think I'll need to seriously up my water intake each day. I'll do another slow 4/5 miler before the LSR to see how that one goes.
It's one for me to ponder further over a cool San Miguel.

Oooh sounds lovely! I'm not in the least bit jealous. :pac:

It's 21o where I'm going so not too bad. Also going to be on the coast so I imagine weather will be similar to home.

I'm going to bring my running gear but play it by ear. I'll do my best to get the LSR in but I'm not going to fret about it if I don't. I'll be doing a lot of activity over the break anyway, lots of walking so I won't be completely sedentary.

Fearless Leader, hope you're ok with that?

:):o

ZV Yoda · 05-08-2015 11:48AM

Toulouse wrote: »

Yeah, I'd like to do the 10 Mile route for prep too seeing as we'll be in the park.

Me too... I think that's a great idea.

Does anybody know the route well enough to lead the way? The map is on the Race Series website (here) but my sense of direction is shockingly bad. I'd end up getting lost. (Even though I ran it last year!)

KillianByrne · 05-08-2015 11:58AM

aquinn wrote: »

You thought you'd found your marathon day outfit, green t shirt if I remember. One long run you arrived back with bloody nipples and so a very ruined t shirt which put that plan out the window but posted a photo for us all to be horrified. In fairness this is how I found you at the start line of the Dublin half.

I take it you are doing 70.3 this weekend? Enjoy if so.

Yes, I remember. A photo that Hal Higdon himself sympathised with me over! Triathlon this w/end then jump straight into DCM15 training. If the body allows.

KillianByrne · 05-08-2015 12:03PM

Well done everyone on the progress to date, the R&R & race series reports are great. Plenty of time to learn from lessons experienced now before DCM. You're all doing great.

Remember that this is supposed to be fun, if you're trying so hard that it becomes all consuming have a word with your mentors about what you can do.

Jotunheim · 05-08-2015 12:32PM

FeenaM wrote: »

am i best to stick with grass where possible and have a better chance at staying injury free?

I think the soft surface=reduced injury mantra has been mythologised into fact and I don't think there's any proven substance to it. I find running on harder surfaces easier on my body, probably not as much hard work stabilising, despite preferring to run off-road. I read a study which showed there was an escalation in particular injuries (psoas I think) from running on loose surfaces, particularly sand. I'm aware of a similar study, which originated in studying surfaces for children's playgrounds, which showed that your body quickly and instinctively adjusts stride mechanics (and falling mechanics) to cope with harder surfaces, in the same way you'd dive into a swimming pool in a way that you obviously would never do on a tarmac path. I know also I've had a few ankle sprains from running on grass and finding hidden holes, where on road at least you can generally see them coming.

Short answer, since you're preparing for the road, it makes sense to run on the road and the majority of runners have no reason to fear harder surfaces.

PJD · 05-08-2015 12:40PM

Some money off Trigger Point Therapy Foam Roller set at present in Cycle Superstore. Still expensive but excellent kit.

menoscemo · 05-08-2015 12:41PM

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

Oooh sounds lovely! I'm not in the least bit jealous. :pac:

It's 21o where I'm going so not too bad. Also going to be on the coast so I imagine weather will be similar to home.

I'm going to bring my running gear but play it by ear. I'll do my best to get the LSR in but I'm not going to fret about it if I don't. I'll be doing a lot of activity over the break anyway, lots of walking so I won't be completely sedentary.

Fearless Leader, hope you're ok with that? :):o

Why not do your long run on Monday when you get back?
Remember DCM is on a Monday not a Sunday.
Just readjust your following weeks plan by a little but since you run 3 times a week you could be back on plan by the following Sunday no?

menoscemo · 05-08-2015 12:44PM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Normal service resumed

Morning FeenaM. We had a similar discussion with Ronan a good few pages back. The feedback was that it is advisable to work within the theory of race specificity. This means that you should train for what you will race; ie road race = train on road.
I'm not sure that you should jump into a 14 mile lsr on road though. How much road running have you been doing? FBOT or meno, any thoughts on this?

Sorry DG and Feena, I wouldn't be much of an expert on this as I have generally always been a road runner.
But I agree in general you need to get used to doing long runs on Tarmac, Like DG I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to jump straight into this or build up by doing shorter runs on tarmac first.

Myles Splitz · 05-08-2015 12:49PM

Jotunheim wrote: »

I think the soft surface=reduced injury mantra has been mythologised into fact and I don't think there's any proven substance to it. I find running on harder surfaces easier on my body, probably not as much hard work stabilising, despite preferring to run off-road. I read a study which showed there was an escalation in particular injuries (psoas I think) from running on loose surfaces, particularly sand. I'm aware of a similar study, which originated in studying surfaces for children's playgrounds, which showed that your body quickly and instinctively adjusts stride mechanics (and falling mechanics) to cope with harder surfaces, in the same way you'd dive into a swimming pool in a way that you obviously would never do on a tarmac path. I know also I've had a few ankle sprains from running on grass and finding hidden holes, where on road at least you can generally see them coming.

Short answer, since you're preparing for the road, it makes sense to run on the road and the majority of runners have no reason to fear harder surfaces.

Gonna come from a different angle on this.

Soft surface I would not argue reduces injury risk but rather increases the rate of injury prevention in marathon runners.

Glute medius and TFL are among the most important muscles used for stabilization when running are often under developed in runners constant running on hard surfaces. Obviously specificity plays a role and hence no harm to do the long runs on the tarmac however I think in the absence of strength and conditioning a bit of running on trail grass surfaces will do runners the world of good come race day.

As was mentioned though like anything common sense applies. If your body is not used to it don't overload as you won't have specific muscular endurance and proprioception (sensory nerve feedback) skills to sustain without injury risk increasing.

To put simply no harm to add soft surfaces on one or two of your shorter runs during the week and progress from there but keep long run specific to task at hand (or vice versa if not used to road running)

Jotunheim · 05-08-2015 01:20PM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Gonna come from a different angle on this.

Soft surface I would not argue reduces injury risk but rather increases the rate of injury prevention in marathon runners.

Glute medius and TFL are among the most important muscles used for stabilization when running are often under developed in runners constant running on hard surfaces. Obviously specificity plays a role and hence no harm to do the long runs on the tarmac however I think in the absence of strength and conditioning a bit of running on trail grass surfaces will do runners the world of good come race day.

As was mentioned though like anything common sense applies. If your body is not used to it don't overload as you won't have specific muscular endurance and proprioception (sensory nerve feedback) skills to sustain without injury risk increasing.

To put simply no harm to add soft surfaces on one or two of your shorter runs during the week and progress from there but keep long run specific to task at hand (or vice versa if not used to road running)

I don't think you are coming at it from a different angle to what I posted. You're suggesting that adding some soft surfaces has potential benefits for primarily road runners, I couldn't agree more and I was suggesting there is potential harm in too much off-road and no reason to avoid hard surfaces (as FeenaM was suggesting she would do), in particular if that's the surface for your goal race.

DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

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