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Crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road?

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  • 30-07-2015 5:11pm
    #1
    Skidfingers
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭


    Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!


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    #2
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Skidfingers wrote: »
    Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!
    Galway no longer does zebra crossings.


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    #3
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Skidfingers wrote: »
    Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

    Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?


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    #4
    Skidfingers
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭Skidfingers


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?

    50 yards is a long way when it's raining on a December morning at 9am.


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    #5
    thesandeman
    Registered Users Posts: 10,040 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Galway no longer does zebra crossings.


    And that's it in black and white!


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    #6
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,042 ✭✭✭Guffy


    Is the road not too wide for zebra crossing at that point anyway?


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    #7
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Moved out from the "Looking For..." sticky


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    #8
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?


    I can't see those lights on StreetView, so I can't comment on their positioning or usefulness.

    Pedestrians and bus users want to cross where it's most convenient, not where Irish roads engineers want to shunt them for the convenience of traffic (using the cheapest crossing type).


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    #9
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I can't see those lights on StreetView, so I can't comment on their positioning or usefulness.

    Pedestrians and bus users want to cross where it's most convenient, not where Irish roads engineers want to shunt them for the convenience of traffic (using the cheapest crossing type).

    You press a button on a traffic light, the traffic stops and you cross the road.
    Pretty simple to use and they're positioned on a road, so they're useful too.
    There is bus stop a few yards west of the crossing, for those who don't want to make the arduous journey all the way back to the bus stop opposite the GMIT.
    Or we could ask those pesky road engineers to put in a crossing at every single bus stop. Because that would make more sense, wouldn't it.


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    #10
    Irishgoatman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭Irishgoatman


    I can't think, off hand, how close the bus stop is but is it possible that if pedestrian lights were at or near the bus stop traffic could back up, in the Dublin direction on to the roundabout, and block all traffic ?.


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    #11
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,768 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Irishgoatman wrote: »
    I can't think, off hand, how close the bus stop is but is it possible that if pedestrian lights were at or near the bus stop traffic could back up, in the Dublin direction on to the roundabout, and block all traffic ?.

    It does that anyway.

    An additional set of pedestrian lights at the place where the vast majority of people come out GMIT's main entrance and want to cross the road to get a bus in to town would make a lot of sense.

    The bus stop opposite GMIT has a bus shelter and RTPI sign at it. The one outside the former Dawn Daries has neither. This alone tells you which stop gets the most use.

    Hopefully as part of building the new garda HQ there, the junction management will be replaced with something that works a bit better than the current approach.


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    #12
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    You press a button on a traffic light, the traffic stops and you cross the road.
    Pretty simple to use and they're positioned on a road, so they're useful too.

    Wheres the button? Is the button the green thing that changes colours? Its not simple at all :P


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    #13
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Skidfingers wrote: »
    Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

    Yes there should. There should also be zebra crossings on all the exits and entries of the roundabout.


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    #14
    fago
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭fago


    Anyone who has used those lights will tell you they are timed completely wrong. I assume they are looped to the lights further into town at the mervue junction. which means a 90 sec plus wait alot of the time even with no traffic.
    Badly placed and ignored by those who would use them.


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    #15
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    Or we could ask those pesky road engineers to put in a crossing at every single bus stop. Because that would make more sense, wouldn't it.

    Usually on boards when someone tries to imply someone of said something they didn't or "asked" for something they didn't then it means that poster losing the debate and is trying to find a way of wriggling out of it.

    In this case it looks like you've managed to admit defeat with your first post in the thread.

    See now I've done it as well.


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    #16
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Usually on boards when someone tries to imply someone of said something they didn't or "asked" for something they didn't then it means that poster losing the debate and is trying to find a way of wriggling out of it.

    In this case it looks like you've managed to admit defeat with your first post in the thread.

    See now I've done it as well.

    I'm sorry, but I couldn't make head nor tail of that first paragraph.


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    #17
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but I couldn't make head nor tail of that first paragraph.

    Fixed now perils of composing on a small phone screen


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    #18
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Fixed now perils of composing on a small phone screen

    A little clearer.

    My comment was a response to Iwannahurls post, which seemed to imply, that there should be a pedestrian crossing at every bus stop.
    I feel that this is impractical and my post was an attempt at a humerous response, to a view, which I would disagree with.


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    #19
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    A little clearer.

    My comment was a response to Iwannahurls post, which seemed to imply, that there should be a pedestrian crossing at every bus stop.
    I feel that this is impractical and my post was an attempt at a humerous response, to a view, which I would disagree with.


    Pedestrian-priority crossings should be placed where they most benefit pedestrian and bus users.

    It's one important way in which walking and public transport can be facilitated, and in my experience is the norm elsewhere in Europe. It's not the norm in Ireland (certainly not in Galway) for a number of reasons. Those reasons include an official culture of facilitating private car use, a penny-pinching attitude to providing infrastructure for non car users and deficiencies in road traffic legislation.

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    #20
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Pedestrian-priority crossings should be placed where they most benefit pedestrian and bus users.

    It's one important way in which walking and public transport can be facilitated, and in my experience is the norm elsewhere in Europe. It's not the norm in Ireland (certainly not in Galway) for a number of reasons. Those reasons include an official culture of facilitating private car use, a penny-pinching attitude to providing infrastructure for non car users and deficiencies in road traffic legislation.
    Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.


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    #21
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.

    The location of pedestrian-priority crossings seems to be decided on the basis of least disruption to motorised traffic and least cost. Also, the DTTAS seems to think that pedestrian crossings don't look nice, so you have to use them sparingly. That seems to be because those long-outmoded and superfluous Belisha beacons look naff, but our law requires them to be used with zebra crossings.

    Here's an example of where the City Council has placed a single pelican crossing in a manner which is of no use to the vast majority of pedestrians: junction of Barna Road and Shangort Road. Why would they do that, in your opinion?


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    #22
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.

    Yep pretty much. The classic example is the one on University Rd which, before it was put in, was repeatedly pointed out to be a place where few people crossed the road. But up at the canal, at Wards shop and a playground there is nothing.

    There used to be an Irish design guide "warrants for pedestrian crossings" where the type of crossing to be used was selected by using graphs that showed which types would cause the least delay to motorised traffic.


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    #23
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The location of pedestrian-priority crossings seems to be decided on the basis of least disruption to motorised traffic and least cost. Also, the DTTAS seems to think that pedestrian crossings don't look nice, so you have to use them sparingly. That seems to be because those long-outmoded and superfluous Belisha beacons look naff, but our law requires them to be used with zebra crossings.

    Here's an example of where the City Council has placed a single pelican crossing in a manner which is of no use to the vast majority of pedestrians: junction of Barna Road and Shangort Road. Why would they do that, in your opinion?

    That crossing does seem pointless alright and I'm sure you and others could point out several others.
    However, this thread was started on a specific topic of a pedestrian crossing at the bus stop opposite the GMIT, so I don't see the point in bringing in other random crossings from around the city.

    There is a pedestrian crossing outside GMIT on the Ballybane road for those living in Glasan, Ballybane, Ballybrit etc and a pedestrian crossing near the western end of the GMIT campus for those living in Renmore, Lurgan and for those getting the bus into or across town.
    In my opinion, pedestrians are well catered for at this particular location and putting another crossing at that bus stop would be pointless and wasteful.
    By the way, where on that road would you put the crossing?


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    #24
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    In my opinion, pedestrians are well catered for at this particular location and putting another crossing at that bus stop would be pointless and wasteful.

    By the way, where on that road would you put the crossing?

    I would put pedestrian crossings wherever there are significant 'desire lines'. In my opinion facilitating people to walk and to use public transport is anything but pointless or wasteful.


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    #25
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I would put pedestrian crossings wherever there are significant 'desire lines'. In my opinion facilitating people to walk and to use public transport is anything but pointless or wasteful.

    Yes, but in this specific instance, where would you put a crossing.

    Also, I don't know what "desire lines" are, so you might explain.


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    #26
    Asmodean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭Asmodean


    I often crossed over at gmit to get the bus into town. I didn't use the pedestrian crossing. I don't know how I managed to survive all those years.


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    #27
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    Yes, but in this specific instance, where would you put a crossing.

    Also, I don't know what "desire lines" are, so you might explain.

    A desire line is simply the shortest, most navigable or most sensible route from A to B. We all know that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so on any given route pedestrians will naturally tend to follow the quickest and most obvious path, where feasible. This is why you end up with trails through green areas, for example, because the formal path provided is longer or otherwise less convenient. Desire lines reveal two things: (1) where pedestrians want to go, and (2) what planners neglected to provide.

    Desire lines are strongly influenced by the permeability of public spaces, which in turn is a major influence on the practicability of walking, cycling and public transport.

    This new NTA best practice guide for planners addresses the significance of desire lines in the context of urban permeability: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Permeability_Best_Practice_Guide_NTA_20151.pdf

    As for locating pedestrian crossings, I don't know the locality very well but based on StreetView I would suggest putting crossings opposite the two pedestrian entrances/exits, on the basis that most pedestrians and bus users will be going that way. The roundabout should have pedestrian-priority crossings on all arms.

    Asmodean wrote: »
    I often crossed over at gmit to get the bus into town. I didn't use the pedestrian crossing. I don't know how I managed to survive all those years.

    You were not alone, presumably, which would underline the OP's point. It's not just a question of survival, however. For example, if a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle while traversing the road 50 metres from a pedestrian crossing, you'll have AGS and the RSA tut-tutting about the victim's behaviour instead of questioning whether the facilities are adequate. Also there's the question of who is the design user: local authorities should be striving for universal access, not 'survival of the fittest'.


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    #28
    Asmodean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭Asmodean


    Indeed. I would further propose that we remove cars from the roads altogether to alleviate these sort of problems in the future. Rather radical some might say but at least then people wouldn't have to be walking 30 feet down the road in order to navigate across such a hazardous and treacherous deathtrap.


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    #29
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    A desire line is simply the shortest, most navigable or most sensible route from A to B. We all know that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so on any given route pedestrians will naturally tend to follow the quickest and most obvious path, where feasible. This is why you end up with trails through green areas, for example, because the formal path provided is longer or otherwise less convenient. Desire lines reveal two things: (1) where pedestrians want to go, and (2) what planners neglected to provide.

    Desire lines are strongly influenced by the permeability of public spaces, which in turn is a major influence on the practicability of walking, cycling and public transport.

    This new NTA best practice guide for planners addresses the significance of desire lines in the context of urban permeability: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Permeability_Best_Practice_Guide_NTA_20151.pdf

    As for locating pedestrian crossings, I don't know the locality very well but based on StreetView I would suggest putting crossings opposite the two pedestrian entrances/exits, on the basis that most pedestrians and bus users will be going that way. The roundabout should have pedestrian-priority crossings on all arms.




    You were not alone, presumably, which would underline the OP's point. It's not just a question of survival, however. For example, if a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle while traversing the road 50 metres from a pedestrian crossing, you'll have AGS and the RSA tut-tutting about the victim's behaviour instead of questioning whether the facilities are adequate. Also there's the question of who is the design user: local authorities should be striving for universal access, not 'survival of the fittest'.

    So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.
    Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.


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    #30
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.

    Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.

    Right, so the Swiss, Dutch, Danish, Germans, French, Italians et al are "beyond stupid" but we Irish are ahead of the curve with not providing a sufficiency of pedestrian crossings in urban areas, especially at junctions, roundabouts and adjacent to public transit.

    I guess the fact that more than half of Irish travellers use cars for journeys under 2km and that at 74% our national level of car use is second highest in the EU is a sign of our superior collective intelligence compared to those dumb Europeans. Beep beep.


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    #31
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,768 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    fergiesfolly wrote: »
    So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.
    Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.

    A little research is a wonderful thing.

    This map shows the position of the GMIT main Dublin Rd exit (blue flag) and the pedestrian lights (red flag).

    Measuring the distance between them is approx 200 metres. So a round trip of 400 metres = about 440 yards.

    Bus commuters would be closer to the next bus stop so probably wouldn't do the round trip. But there are lots of students living in Lurgan Park / Glenn Rua, who are also not provided with any safe way of getting across the road here. The chances that they will extent their trip home by half a km .. close to nil, I would say.

    The real madness is that the bus-stop is so close to the roundabout, and that the roundabout has been allowed to stay so long after it became clearly inadequate to handle peak loads.

    And I do really do wonder why people who use cars react so badly to the idea of infrastructure that makes the urban environment better for anyone other than themselves. It's almost like they have a need to prove they're superior to everyone else.


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