Crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road?

Skidfingers

Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

snubbleste

Skidfingers wrote: »

Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

Galway no longer does zebra crossings.

gordongekko

Skidfingers wrote: »

Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?

Skidfingers

gordongekko wrote: »

Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?

50 yards is a long way when it's raining on a December morning at 9am.

thesandeman

snubbleste wrote: »

Galway no longer does zebra crossings.

And that's it in black and white!

Guffy

Is the road not too wide for zebra crossing at that point anyway?

biko

Moved out from the "Looking For..." sticky

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

Is there something wrong with using the pedestrian lights 50 yrds down the road?

I can't see those lights on StreetView, so I can't comment on their positioning or usefulness.

Pedestrians and bus users want to cross where it's most convenient, not where Irish roads engineers want to shunt them for the convenience of traffic (using the cheapest crossing type).

fergiesfolly

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I can't see those lights on StreetView, so I can't comment on their positioning or usefulness.

Pedestrians and bus users want to cross where it's most convenient, not where Irish roads engineers want to shunt them for the convenience of traffic (using the cheapest crossing type).

You press a button on a traffic light, the traffic stops and you cross the road.
Pretty simple to use and they're positioned on a road, so they're useful too.
There is bus stop a few yards west of the crossing, for those who don't want to make the arduous journey all the way back to the bus stop opposite the GMIT.
Or we could ask those pesky road engineers to put in a crossing at every single bus stop. Because that would make more sense, wouldn't it.

Irishgoatman

I can't think, off hand, how close the bus stop is but is it possible that if pedestrian lights were at or near the bus stop traffic could back up, in the Dublin direction on to the roundabout, and block all traffic ?.

Mrs OBumble

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I can't think, off hand, how close the bus stop is but is it possible that if pedestrian lights were at or near the bus stop traffic could back up, in the Dublin direction on to the roundabout, and block all traffic ?.

It does that anyway.

An additional set of pedestrian lights at the place where the vast majority of people come out GMIT's main entrance and want to cross the road to get a bus in to town would make a lot of sense.

The bus stop opposite GMIT has a bus shelter and RTPI sign at it. The one outside the former Dawn Daries has neither. This alone tells you which stop gets the most use.

Hopefully as part of building the new garda HQ there, the junction management will be replaced with something that works a bit better than the current approach.

pmasterson95

fergiesfolly wrote: »

You press a button on a traffic light, the traffic stops and you cross the road.
Pretty simple to use and they're positioned on a road, so they're useful too.

Wheres the button? Is the button the green thing that changes colours? Its not simple at all :P

galwaycyclist

Skidfingers wrote: »

Not looking for anything but, just wondering why isn't there a zebra crossing outside GMIT on the Dublin road? With a bus stop being there. That road is deadly trying to cross!

Yes there should. There should also be zebra crossings on all the exits and entries of the roundabout.

fago

Anyone who has used those lights will tell you they are timed completely wrong. I assume they are looped to the lights further into town at the mervue junction. which means a 90 sec plus wait alot of the time even with no traffic.
Badly placed and ignored by those who would use them.

galwaycyclist

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Or we could ask those pesky road engineers to put in a crossing at every single bus stop. Because that would make more sense, wouldn't it.

Usually on boards when someone tries to imply someone of said something they didn't or "asked" for something they didn't then it means that poster losing the debate and is trying to find a way of wriggling out of it.

In this case it looks like you've managed to admit defeat with your first post in the thread.

See now I've done it as well.

fergiesfolly

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Usually on boards when someone tries to imply someone of said something they didn't or "asked" for something they didn't then it means that poster losing the debate and is trying to find a way of wriggling out of it.

In this case it looks like you've managed to admit defeat with your first post in the thread.

See now I've done it as well.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't make head nor tail of that first paragraph.

galwaycyclist

fergiesfolly wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I couldn't make head nor tail of that first paragraph.

Fixed now perils of composing on a small phone screen

fergiesfolly

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Fixed now perils of composing on a small phone screen

A little clearer.

My comment was a response to Iwannahurls post, which seemed to imply, that there should be a pedestrian crossing at every bus stop.
I feel that this is impractical and my post was an attempt at a humerous response, to a view, which I would disagree with.

Iwannahurl

fergiesfolly wrote: »

A little clearer.

My comment was a response to Iwannahurls post, which seemed to imply, that there should be a pedestrian crossing at every bus stop.
I feel that this is impractical and my post was an attempt at a humerous response, to a view, which I would disagree with.

Pedestrian-priority crossings should be placed where they most benefit pedestrian and bus users.

It's one important way in which walking and public transport can be facilitated, and in my experience is the norm elsewhere in Europe. It's not the norm in Ireland (certainly not in Galway) for a number of reasons. Those reasons include an official culture of facilitating private car use, a penny-pinching attitude to providing infrastructure for non car users and deficiencies in road traffic legislation.

gordongekko

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Pedestrian-priority crossings should be placed where they most benefit pedestrian and bus users.

It's one important way in which walking and public transport can be facilitated, and in my experience is the norm elsewhere in Europe. It's not the norm in Ireland (certainly not in Galway) for a number of reasons. Those reasons include an official culture of facilitating private car use, a penny-pinching attitude to providing infrastructure for non car users and deficiencies in road traffic legislation.

Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.

The location of pedestrian-priority crossings seems to be decided on the basis of least disruption to motorised traffic and least cost. Also, the DTTAS seems to think that pedestrian crossings don't look nice, so you have to use them sparingly. That seems to be because those long-outmoded and superfluous Belisha beacons look naff, but our law requires them to be used with zebra crossings.

Here's an example of where the City Council has placed a single pelican crossing in a manner which is of no use to the vast majority of pedestrians: junction of Barna Road and Shangort Road. Why would they do that, in your opinion?

galwaycyclist

gordongekko wrote: »

Ya I'm sure the planners meet up and the process of putting pedestrian crossings is done by deciding the least useful place to put the lights and then place them there.

Yep pretty much. The classic example is the one on University Rd which, before it was put in, was repeatedly pointed out to be a place where few people crossed the road. But up at the canal, at Wards shop and a playground there is nothing.

There used to be an Irish design guide "warrants for pedestrian crossings" where the type of crossing to be used was selected by using graphs that showed which types would cause the least delay to motorised traffic.

fergiesfolly

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The location of pedestrian-priority crossings seems to be decided on the basis of least disruption to motorised traffic and least cost. Also, the DTTAS seems to think that pedestrian crossings don't look nice, so you have to use them sparingly. That seems to be because those long-outmoded and superfluous Belisha beacons look naff, but our law requires them to be used with zebra crossings.

Here's an example of where the City Council has placed a single pelican crossing in a manner which is of no use to the vast majority of pedestrians: junction of Barna Road and Shangort Road. Why would they do that, in your opinion?

That crossing does seem pointless alright and I'm sure you and others could point out several others.
However, this thread was started on a specific topic of a pedestrian crossing at the bus stop opposite the GMIT, so I don't see the point in bringing in other random crossings from around the city.

There is a pedestrian crossing outside GMIT on the Ballybane road for those living in Glasan, Ballybane, Ballybrit etc and a pedestrian crossing near the western end of the GMIT campus for those living in Renmore, Lurgan and for those getting the bus into or across town.
In my opinion, pedestrians are well catered for at this particular location and putting another crossing at that bus stop would be pointless and wasteful.
By the way, where on that road would you put the crossing?

Iwannahurl

fergiesfolly wrote: »

In my opinion, pedestrians are well catered for at this particular location and putting another crossing at that bus stop would be pointless and wasteful.

By the way, where on that road would you put the crossing?

I would put pedestrian crossings wherever there are significant 'desire lines'. In my opinion facilitating people to walk and to use public transport is anything but pointless or wasteful.

fergiesfolly

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I would put pedestrian crossings wherever there are significant 'desire lines'. In my opinion facilitating people to walk and to use public transport is anything but pointless or wasteful.

Yes, but in this specific instance, where would you put a crossing.

Also, I don't know what "desire lines" are, so you might explain.

Asmodean

I often crossed over at gmit to get the bus into town. I didn't use the pedestrian crossing. I don't know how I managed to survive all those years.

Iwannahurl

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Yes, but in this specific instance, where would you put a crossing.

Also, I don't know what "desire lines" are, so you might explain.

A desire line is simply the shortest, most navigable or most sensible route from A to B. We all know that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so on any given route pedestrians will naturally tend to follow the quickest and most obvious path, where feasible. This is why you end up with trails through green areas, for example, because the formal path provided is longer or otherwise less convenient. Desire lines reveal two things: (1) where pedestrians want to go, and (2) what planners neglected to provide.

Desire lines are strongly influenced by the permeability of public spaces, which in turn is a major influence on the practicability of walking, cycling and public transport.

This new NTA best practice guide for planners addresses the significance of desire lines in the context of urban permeability: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Permeability_Best_Practice_Guide_NTA_20151.pdf

As for locating pedestrian crossings, I don't know the locality very well but based on StreetView I would suggest putting crossings opposite the two pedestrian entrances/exits, on the basis that most pedestrians and bus users will be going that way. The roundabout should have pedestrian-priority crossings on all arms.

Asmodean wrote: »

I often crossed over at gmit to get the bus into town. I didn't use the pedestrian crossing. I don't know how I managed to survive all those years.

You were not alone, presumably, which would underline the OP's point. It's not just a question of survival, however. For example, if a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle while traversing the road 50 metres from a pedestrian crossing, you'll have AGS and the RSA tut-tutting about the victim's behaviour instead of questioning whether the facilities are adequate. Also there's the question of who is the design user: local authorities should be striving for universal access, not 'survival of the fittest'.

Asmodean

Indeed. I would further propose that we remove cars from the roads altogether to alleviate these sort of problems in the future. Rather radical some might say but at least then people wouldn't have to be walking 30 feet down the road in order to navigate across such a hazardous and treacherous deathtrap.

fergiesfolly

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A desire line is simply the shortest, most navigable or most sensible route from A to B. We all know that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so on any given route pedestrians will naturally tend to follow the quickest and most obvious path, where feasible. This is why you end up with trails through green areas, for example, because the formal path provided is longer or otherwise less convenient. Desire lines reveal two things: (1) where pedestrians want to go, and (2) what planners neglected to provide.

Desire lines are strongly influenced by the permeability of public spaces, which in turn is a major influence on the practicability of walking, cycling and public transport.

This new NTA best practice guide for planners addresses the significance of desire lines in the context of urban permeability: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Permeability_Best_Practice_Guide_NTA_20151.pdf

As for locating pedestrian crossings, I don't know the locality very well but based on StreetView I would suggest putting crossings opposite the two pedestrian entrances/exits, on the basis that most pedestrians and bus users will be going that way. The roundabout should have pedestrian-priority crossings on all arms.




You were not alone, presumably, which would underline the OP's point. It's not just a question of survival, however. For example, if a pedestrian is struck by a vehicle while traversing the road 50 metres from a pedestrian crossing, you'll have AGS and the RSA tut-tutting about the victim's behaviour instead of questioning whether the facilities are adequate. Also there's the question of who is the design user: local authorities should be striving for universal access, not 'survival of the fittest'.

So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.
Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.

Iwannahurl

fergiesfolly wrote: »

So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.

Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.

Right, so the Swiss, Dutch, Danish, Germans, French, Italians et al are "beyond stupid" but we Irish are ahead of the curve with not providing a sufficiency of pedestrian crossings in urban areas, especially at junctions, roundabouts and adjacent to public transit.

I guess the fact that more than half of Irish travellers use cars for journeys under 2km and that at 74% our national level of car use is second highest in the EU is a sign of our superior collective intelligence compared to those dumb Europeans. Beep beep.

Mrs OBumble

fergiesfolly wrote: »

So desire lines in this case would facilitate pedestrian/ bus users who are too lazy or safety conscious to walk at most, 100 yards round-trip to cross the road.
Putting a crossing at that bus stop would be beyond stupid, as it's so close to a busy roundabout and would cause unnecessary tailbacks and prove hazardous to all road users and pedestrians.

A little research is a wonderful thing.

This map shows the position of the GMIT main Dublin Rd exit (blue flag) and the pedestrian lights (red flag).

Measuring the distance between them is approx 200 metres. So a round trip of 400 metres = about 440 yards.

Bus commuters would be closer to the next bus stop so probably wouldn't do the round trip. But there are lots of students living in Lurgan Park / Glenn Rua, who are also not provided with any safe way of getting across the road here. The chances that they will extent their trip home by half a km .. close to nil, I would say.

The real madness is that the bus-stop is so close to the roundabout, and that the roundabout has been allowed to stay so long after it became clearly inadequate to handle peak loads.

And I do really do wonder why people who use cars react so badly to the idea of infrastructure that makes the urban environment better for anyone other than themselves. It's almost like they have a need to prove they're superior to everyone else.

Crumbs868

What about moving the bus stop a small bit in the direction towards town and adding ped lights. I think ped lights at the current bus stop won't work - Reasoning being even if there are lights at the current location pedestrians will generally not wait for green ped light if road looks clear and also cars come off the roundabout too fast (at the moment peds leg it across / are cautious whereas if there is a green led light they may not give traffic a 2nd look).

fergiesfolly

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Right, so the Swiss, Dutch, Danish, Germans, French, Italians et al are "beyond stupid" but we Irish are ahead of the curve with not providing a sufficiency of pedestrian crossings in urban areas, especially at junctions, roundabouts and adjacent to public transit.

I guess the fact that more than half of Irish travellers use cars for journeys under 2km and that at 74% our national level of car use is second highest in the EU is a sign of our superior collective intelligence compared to those dumb Europeans. Beep beep.

I'm only talking about that specific bus stop on that road.
You keep expanding the topic to push your own agenda re road use and users.
You've said more than once that you're not familiar with that section of road, but you keep insisting that you know what's best for that particular road, bus stop and crossing.

fergiesfolly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A little research is a wonderful thing.

This map shows the position of the GMIT main Dublin Rd exit (blue flag) and the pedestrian lights (red flag).

Measuring the distance between them is approx 200 metres. So a round trip of 400 metres = about 440 yards.

Bus commuters would be closer to the next bus stop so probably wouldn't do the round trip. But there are lots of students living in Lurgan Park / Glenn Rua, who are also not provided with any safe way of getting across the road here. The chances that they will extent their trip home by half a km .. close to nil, I would say.

The real madness is that the bus-stop is so close to the roundabout, and that the roundabout has been allowed to stay so long after it became clearly inadequate to handle peak loads.

And I do really do wonder why people who use cars react so badly to the idea of infrastructure that makes the urban environment better for anyone other than themselves. It's almost like they have a need to prove they're superior to everyone else.

I can agree about the proximity of the bus stop to the roundabout and to the retention of the roundabout and I think the best solution would be a fully lighted junction with pedestrian access.
Hadn't realised about the distance from the exit to the crossing( walk it regularly, never seemed that far) but it's still only a couple of minutes and I will use the crossing rather than dash across the road.
I drive, walk and occasionally cycle around town. I have no problem with pedestrians, cyclists being catered for, but as a car driver whose taxes pay for most of the infrastructure, if anyone has to inconvenienced, it shouldn't be me.
He who pays the piper and all that.

Crumbs868

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I would put pedestrian crossings wherever there are significant 'desire lines'.

Even when it's not safe? That's just dam wreckless.

Iwannahurl

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Even when it's not safe? That's just dam wreckless.

If the roads are not safe then they need to be made safe. The source of the danger is motorised traffic, so the solutions flow from that fact.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A little research is a wonderful thing.

This map shows the position of the GMIT main Dublin Rd exit (blue flag) and the pedestrian lights (red flag).

Measuring the distance between them is approx 200 metres. So a round trip of 400 metres = about 440 yards.

Bus commuters would be closer to the next bus stop so probably wouldn't do the round trip. But there are lots of students living in Lurgan Park / Glenn Rua, who are also not provided with any safe way of getting across the road here. The chances that they will extent their trip home by half a km .. close to nil, I would say.

The real madness is that the bus-stop is so close to the roundabout, and that the roundabout has been allowed to stay so long after it became clearly inadequate to handle peak loads.

And I do really do wonder why people who use cars react so badly to the idea of infrastructure that makes the urban environment better for anyone other than themselves. It's almost like they have a need to prove they're superior to everyone else.

Bravo -- well said all round.

The real madness is perhaps not the bus stop so close to the roundabout but an Irish roundabout so close to an institution where so many people walk, cycle and take the bus (and where latent demand for same could be further accommodated). I'm just back from France, where every roundabout I encountered in urban areas (and there vast numbers of rondes points) had a pedestrian crossing on each arm. In some locations there were several pedestrian crossings before and after the roundabout. Irish road engineers and motorists are simply unable to comprehend such arrangements -- it's still too far outside their insular, parochial world view.

The other madness -- utterly endemic in this country by now -- is that the windscreen view of traffic and transport predominates. It's so deeply rooted at this stage that even pedestrians, cyclists and bus users seems to have internalised the belief that the car is king and must be given due deference in all situations. It's the societal effect of the second highest level of car dependence in the EU28 -- you now have to look to the US for comparisons, though some UK cities are as bad if not worse.

With regard to students living close to GMIT, I was reliably informed a few years ago that there were students based in nearby accommodation (advertised as being a minute's walk away) who drove to college every day, and who complained about insufficient parking.

This kind of thing has gone way beyond an Irish joke, and is now becoming an American joke imo. I heard recently of a left-wing elected representative referring to public transport as being for "the great unwashed". It's going to take years of effort to turn this around, and unfortunately we can't rely on local or national elected representatives for the necessary leadership and vision.

Crumbs868

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If the roads are not safe then they need to be made safe. The source of the danger is motorised traffic, so the solutions flow from that fact..

WOW what a surprising angle you have taken!!!!! Would you not give the location of the bus stop a little more thought???? - I have posted above why I why I think ped lights / zebra crossing at the current location would be a bad idea.

Great to hear about your French holiday, looking forward to hearing much more about it. If only we were all as well travelled as yourself

pmasterson95

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If the roads are not safe then they need to be made safe. The source of the danger is motorised traffic, so the solutions flow from that fact.




Bravo -- well said all round.

The real madness is perhaps not the bus stop so close to the roundabout but an Irish roundabout so close to an institution where so many people walk, cycle and take the bus (and where latent demand for same could be further accommodated). I'm just back from France, where every roundabout I encountered in urban areas (and there vast numbers of rondes points) had a pedestrian crossing on each arm. In some locations there were several pedestrian crossings before and after the roundabout. Irish road engineers and motorists are simply unable to comprehend such arrangements -- it's still too far outside their insular, parochial world view.

The other madness -- utterly endemic in this country by now -- is that the windscreen view of traffic and transport predominates. It's so deeply rooted at this stage that even pedestrians, cyclists and bus users seems to have internalised the belief that the car is king and must be given due deference in all situations. It's the societal effect of the second highest level of car dependence in the EU28 -- you now have to look to the US for comparisons, though some UK cities are as bad if not worse.

With regard to students living close to GMIT, I was reliably informed a few years ago that there were students based in nearby accommodation (advertised as being a minute's walk away) who drove to college every day, and who complained about insufficient parking.

This kind of thing has gone way beyond an Irish joke, and is now becoming an American joke imo. I heard recently of a left-wing elected representative referring to public transport as being for "the great unwashed". It's going to take years of effort to turn this around, and unfortunately we can't rely on local or national elected representatives for the necessary leadership and vision.

The only time I ever read about "car is king" is on the Galway forum. In reality thats not prevalent. And the other faux outrage points? Well....

Students being lazy ****s is hardly a revelation tbf. A pedestrian light isnt going to make them suddenly walk. They will still be lazy. Fair play to them for actually going to the college not every student does.

Snobish idiots that look down on public transport are just snobs. Pedestrian lights wont suddenly decrease and change the mind of snobs.

Skidfingers

There's a seperation in the centre off the road where pedestrians can stand on the Dublin Road, so it shouldn't be that difficult to make it easier to cross with that there?

fergiesfolly

Skidfingers wrote: »

There's a seperation in the centre off the road where pedestrians can stand on the Dublin Road, so it shouldn't be that difficult to make it easier to cross with that there?

Easier, if you're not a pensioner, someone with a disability or someone with a buggy and a couple of kids in tow.
Unless there's a lighted crossing, most motorists won't stop there and it would be chaos if they did.
That junction needs a major re-design.