Is there a way to find who lived in a particular house?

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 12:49am #1

There is a cluster of abandoned cottages near where I live. I'd love to find out who lived in them and when they were abandoned, whether they belonged to one extended family or constituted a tiny village.
I don't have any names but it's a very sparsely populated area. Is there a way to find where the houses are that are listed on the census forms N, B1 and B2? An annotated map maybe? I can't find anything on the census website, though I've learned a lot there.

Ging Ging · 28-07-2015 1:13am

Talk to old folk who live thereabouts all their lives. They might remember an old person living there when they were younger. You'd be surprised what info they would have. You could start a local history project if you got a few others involved from other town lands. I heard some audio recordings of interviews of older generation in a local town just recently. A fair bit of waffle but some interesting stuff too. In addition to that I think parish records were just made public nationwide, so these along with the census data already available on line should give you an idea who was living where (no postcodes then so not house specific) and when.

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 1:26am

Ging Ging wrote: »

Talk to old folk who live thereabouts all their lives. They might remember an old person living there when they were younger. You'd be surprised what info they would have. You could start a local history project if you got a few others involved from other town lands. I heard some audio recordings of interviews of older generation in a local town just recently. A fair bit of waffle but some interesting stuff too. In addition to that I think parish records were just made public nationwide, so these along with the census data already available on line should give you an idea who was living where (no postcodes then so not house specific) and when.

Thanks. I've disappeared down the rabbit hole of Griffith's Valuation instead of going to bed. Some interesting bits about the house I live in but nothing about the abandoned village. The place name, though clearly marked on the map, doesn't return anything in searches.

shanew · 28-07-2015 7:39am

The census references are just numbers used by the enumerators, but Griffith's Valuation includes site references which you can use to cross-reference individual properties on the map and Valuation.

What's the location ?

pinkypinky · 28-07-2015 9:36am

Valuations Office updated and built on Griffiths, so you'd be able to check up to recent times in there. Note this will tell you who paid the rates, rather than a full list of people in each house.

Thomas from Presence · 28-07-2015 11:05am

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks. I've disappeared down the rabbit hole of Griffith's Valuation instead of going to bed. Some interesting bits about the house I live in but nothing about the abandoned village. The place name, though clearly marked on the map, doesn't return anything in searches.

This is a problem with Irish placenames. Take Ballyboughal - sometimes it's "Ballybohil" or even "Ballybohill". Why not check the placename on Logainm.ie? You might get the antiquated spelling variants there.

kildarejohn · 28-07-2015 11:48am

shanew wrote: »

The census references are just numbers used by the enumerators,

I don't know what the system was, but surely the Census Enumerators had some rules and did not just assign numbers at random?

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 11:54am

pinkypinky wrote: »

Valuations Office updated and built on Griffiths, so you'd be able to check up to recent times in there. Note this will tell you who paid the rates, rather than a full list of people in each house.

Thanks! Nothing coming up though, again the address is drawing a blank.

It's this place, http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,544184,687863,11,8 marked on the historic maps as Derryboy. This is the map on which Griffith's Valuation was based, so I'm surprised that searching for Derryboy isn't getting a result. On some newer maps it's called Derryveagh.
Talking to locals yields blank bewilderment and bemused head-shaking.

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 11:56am

kildarejohn wrote: »

I don't know what the system was, but surely the Census Enumerators had some rules and did not just assign numbers at random?

That's what I thought. Surely they were working to some map. Maybe in an urban setting it might be common sense that he started at one end of the street and worked along it but in the countryside it's less easy to impose a natural logical order on things.

P. Breathnach · 28-07-2015 12:29pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

I don't know what the system was, but surely the Census Enumerators had some rules and did not just assign numbers at random?

In rural areas, that's just what they did. If you compare census reports for villages, you find that the occupants of house 1 in 1901 might be the occupants of house 15 in 1911. Probably not wholly random: it seems to reflect the direction from which the enumerator approached the village.

BarryD · 28-07-2015 1:12pm

Were they occupied in 1901 or 1911? Presume it's this townland http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Tuberbreeda/Derrycaliff/ or
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/1901census/toberbreeda_ded_derrycalliff147_1.htm

If you trawl through the original handwritten forms, you might spot a reference to Derryboy etc.

Otherwise, if you can relate the 1901 or 1911 residents to modern day residents/ houses, you may then be able to figure out the enumerators numbering system and work it from there.

Surprising though, that nobody local would know who lived there. You'd want to be asking the right people though - people who are 'seed & breed' of the area.

Maybe this helps.

shanew · 28-07-2015 1:56pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

I don't know what the system was, but surely the Census Enumerators had some rules and did not just assign numbers at random?

Each enumerator used their own system, and so may not be in any particular order. I've analysed a couple of townlands in areas I know and found there's no particular logic to the order.

shanew · 28-07-2015 2:07pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks! Nothing coming up though, again the address is drawing a blank.

It's this place, http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,544184,687863,11,8 marked on the historic maps as Derryboy. This is the map on which Griffith's Valuation was based, so I'm surprised that searching for Derryboy isn't getting a result. On some newer maps it's called Derryveagh.
Talking to locals yields blank bewilderment and bemused head-shaking.

It's probably too small for any search results, a village or population centre is how they refer to these locations on the placename database at Logainm. A search under the townland name of Derrycalliff, or Civil parish of Clooney might be the way to go..

Based on the OSI maps it seems to have existed as a settlement until the late 1800s at least. Some of the boundaries still feature in the landscape of the former village in the area immediately surrounding, and the main area does not appear to have been farmed recently so there might still be evidence to be seen on the ground.

Edit : The village is not mentioned specifically on the entry for Derrycalliff townland on Griffith's , but based on the plot references and the AskAboutIreland maps there are two properties mentioned in the area that corresponds to Derryboy - a Martin Hogan and Patrick Loughrey, both leasing from a James Butler.

BarryD · 28-07-2015 2:18pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Talking to locals yields blank bewilderment and bemused head-shaking.

Try again locally and come around to it in a way that makes it clear you're just curious about the local history of the area. People can be coy at times for all sorts of reasons tied up with 'the land' and family relations etc. Might take a little effort to get the story!

Two families of Hogan: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Tuberbreeda/Derrycaliff/

Both have sons Martin Hogan..

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 2:44pm

One of the houses looks like it might have been occupied until at least the 1950s, possibly later. Bottles and other bits of debris support this theory. The boundaries look like they've been maintained in parts and the 1995 ortho looks like areas had been farmed until recently, when Coillte moved in.
I've had a look at and Griffiths valuation and the census, but there's still a lot of guessing involved, as well as trying to account for changes in the intervening years.
The next time I get a chance to talk to locals I'll mention Hogans and Loughreys and see if the names ring any bells. I have lots of questions about the area, for example I still don't know the name of the river that crosses my property.

shanew · 28-07-2015 2:49pm

beveragelady wrote: »

........I have lots of questions about the area, for example I still don't know the name of the river that crosses my property.

EPA have a map that might help with that... select water features/Rivers on the left : http://gis.epa.ie/Envision

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 2:59pm

shanew wrote: »

EPA have a map that might help with that... select water features/Rivers on the left : http://gis.epa.ie/Envision

Amazing. Found it! And, get this haterzzz, it's not a stream its a proper grown-up river.

KildareFan · 28-07-2015 3:33pm

MIchael Hogan looked for a pension in 1917 & the 1851 Census form was checked. This showed that the occupants in 1851 at Derrycaliff, Crusheen, Co Clare were Martin and Honor Hogan, parents of Michael. The note on the form reads '12.9.17. Found parents married 1859, no son Michael Sheet 14' so it looks like he was claiming the pension before his time.

Honor Hogan may have been the Norrie Hogan, Derrycaliff who appeared at the Crusheen petty sessions on 27 Sep 1869 for allowing her heifer to trespass on Michael McAllen's meadow.

Derryboy appears to have been a name for the cluster of homes sited in Derrycaliff townland, there is another cluster of homes in the same townland called Derryveagh. These could have been a clachan type structures which were common in Co Clare see for example http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=CL&regno=20400208; if you feel like reading more on clachans there's a good article by Kevin Whelan at http://oconnellhouse.nd.edu/assets/134451/clachanspdf.pdf

BarryD · 28-07-2015 3:40pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Amazing. Found it! And, get this haterzzz, it's not a stream its a proper grown-up river.

Hmm.. I'd be a little suspicious of some of those stream & river names. Looks to me that in several cases, the EPA have taken the name of the adjacent townland and applied it for their own labeling convenience to the stream. I'd know a few where the local name is quite different, again your best source are local people.

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 4:42pm

KildareFan wrote: »

MIchael Hogan looked for a pension in 1917 & the 1851 Census form was checked. This showed that the occupants in 1851 at Derrycaliff, Crusheen, Co Clare were Martin and Honor Hogan, parents of Michael. The note on the form reads '12.9.17. Found parents married 1859, no son Michael Sheet 14' so it looks like he was claiming the pension before his time.

Honor Hogan may have been the Norrie Hogan, Derrycaliff who appeared at the Crusheen petty sessions on 27 Sep 1869 for allowing her heifer to trespass on Michael McAllen's meadow.

Derryboy appears to have been a name for the cluster of homes sited in Derrycaliff townland, there is another cluster of homes in the same townland called Derryveagh. These could have been a clachan type structures which were common in Co Clare see for example http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=CL&regno=20400208; if you feel like reading more on clachans there's a good article by Kevin Whelan at http://oconnellhouse.nd.edu/assets/134451/clachanspdf.pdf

Well done! Are we 100% those records refer to the occupants of the houses at Derryboy? Can you briefly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it must be Hogans? I'd like to do a similar search about nearby Thimbletown. It's gone completely as far as I can tell, it used to be to the northeast of Derryboy.
I haven't seen a map with both Derryboy and Derryveagh marked on it so I thought it was likely that they're the same place.
It's a magical sort of spot whatever it's called. No matter what the weather is doing it has a soft light and an atmosphere of its own. There's a small lime kiln nearby too and a mysterious disappearing stream. When the undergrowth dies back for the winter I'm going to go looking for the wells that are marked on the map.
Thanks for all the help!

beveragelady · 28-07-2015 4:48pm

BarryD wrote: »

Hmm.. I'd be a little suspicious of some of those stream & river names. Looks to me that in several cases, the EPA have taken the name of the adjacent townland and applied it for their own labeling convenience to the stream. I'd know a few where the local name is quite different, again your best source are local people.

The name the EPA have for the river isn't the name of anything else in the locality, and it's one of the names that came up when I first started trying to find out what it was called. It's written strangely though, there are brackets in it. Without the brackets the name makes sense as it references an important feature of the river, so I'm going to forget the brackets and start using it with absolute confidence and see if it catches on.

shanew · 28-07-2015 5:36pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Well done! Are we 100% those records refer to the occupants of the houses at Derryboy? Can you briefly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it must be Hogans? I'd like to do a similar search about nearby Thimbletown. It's gone completely as far as I can tell, it used to be to the northeast of Derryboy....

The possible Hogan link I suggested was based on the properties on Griffith's Valuation for Derrycalliff townland cross-referenced with with the AskAboutIreland map which has the area around 'Derryboy' shown as site '1'. There is just one listing for the surname Hogan* listed for the townland on the valuation and two for the 1901 and 1911 census, so seems likely that the two Hogans listed on the census returns are related...

*Martin Hogan is listed with just land and offices (i.e. barn, workshops etc) in site 1, the area around 'Derryboy', his residence seem to be in the adjacent site 2 to the south west.

p.s. Thimbletown is/was located in Gortnamearacaun townland in Inchicronan civil parish. Even less seems to remain of that...
p.p.s. the entry for Martin Loughry also seems to be for just 'Office and Land'... so maybe nobody actually lived there at the time (1855). Abandoned during the famine ?

shanew · 28-07-2015 5:57pm

beveragelady wrote: »

.I haven't seen a map with both Derryboy and Derryveagh marked on it so I thought it was likely that they're the same place.
.....

could Derryveagh be an alternate or spelling variation for Derryvoagh ?
The 6" OSI shows this a short distance south east of Derryboy

KildareFan · 28-07-2015 6:00pm

Well done! Are we 100% those records refer to the occupants of the houses at Derryboy? Can you briefly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that it must be Hogans?
Hi Beveragelady

When old age pensions for people over 70 years old were introduced in the 1910s, most people over 70 didn't have birth certificates as civil birth registration only started in 1864. People applying for a pension could give the location of their birth and their parents' names and civil servants could go into the files of the 1851 census and check if the applicant was listed in the census. The details were recorded on Census Search forms which managed to survive the Four Courts destruction. see http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp Michael Hogan's census search form is at http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=1238

kildarejohn · 28-07-2015 10:23pm

shanew wrote: »

The possible Hogan link I suggested was based on the properties on Griffith's Valuation for Derrycalliff townland cross-referenced with with the AskAboutIreland map which has the area around 'Derryboy' shown as site '1'.

Great work by Shanew, but can I just point out to the OP why we cant be 100% sure of the link - the list that has Hogan in plot 1 is dated 1850's, whereas the map on Ask About Ireland is about 1900. In some areas where there were a lot of changes of ownership the plots got re-numbered, so no. 1 in 1850 might not be no.1 in 1900.
If you really want to be 100% sure of the match, then you could check whether the area of all the fields in plot 1 on the map add up to the same figure (91 acres) as plot 1 on the ledger page. (the areas are shown on the OSI 25" map). Very tedious in view of the big no, of small fields. I have used this method of checking other areas and it does work.

BarryD · 28-07-2015 10:25pm

shanew wrote: »

could Derryveagh be an alternate or spelling variation for Derryvoagh ?
The 6" OSI shows this a short distance south east of Derryboy

Agreed, much more likely that Derryveagh and Derryvoagh are synonymous, if they are nearby each other, rather than Derryboy - which is quite a larger jump in pronunciation.

shanew · 29-07-2015 7:30am

I tried to check the plots for the area on the older black & white maps which date from the time of the valuation (on FMP.ie) to see if the plot and references match up, but some reason this particular map sheet will not zoom in..

kildarejohn · 29-07-2015 10:11am

shanew wrote: »

I tried to check the plots for the area on the older black & white maps which date from the time of the valuation (on FMP.ie) to see if the plot and references match up, but some reason this particular map sheet will not zoom in..

I have found similar problems for other areas in FMP. FMP claim to have same data as was previously on Origins, but I always found maps OK on Origins, and the website navigation was much better. I cancelled my FMP sub.

KildareFan · 29-07-2015 10:11am

Agreed, much more likely that Derryveagh and Derryvoagh are synonymous, if they are nearby each other, rather than Derryboy - which is quite a larger jump in pronunciation.

Derryboy and Derryvoagh are two separate clusters of houses in the same townland of Derrycaliff - Derryvoagh is just south of Derryboy on the OSI map. 'Derry' comes from the Irish for oak - see extract from Royal Irish Academy about the oak woods in the Derrycaliff, Derryboy, Derryvoagh area at http://www.aughty.org/pdf/great_wood_aughty.pdf
The Oak Fokest of Auohty, Co. Clake.

timber and 200 of young plantations. In Clooney all the large timber had
then vanished, but 200 acres of dwarf wood still subsisted ; the parish has the
names of Derrycaliff, Derryvoagh, Derryheeua, Derryboy, Derrynagullion,
Derrynalane, Derrynaskeagh, Derrylush, and Derrycrannagh, besides such
names as Cnocfuarcoill (cold wood hill, now wrongly "Spancel Hill"),* and
Cranagher (branchy spot). The oak-names continue in TuUa barony and
parish. We find there three Derryulks, Derrynabrone, DeiTynacloghy,

^ See Hardiman, Maps, T.C.D., 2, 63, 82.

kildarejohn · 29-07-2015 11:31am

beveragelady wrote: »

There is a cluster of abandoned cottages near where I live. I'd love to find out who lived in them and when they were abandoned, .

On the topic of when area was abandoned/depopulated. Whatever about the little settlement at Derryboy, it seems the townland of Derrycallif as a whole suffered no population loss over the Famine years, population actually increased!. See http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/14544/page/376085. Went from 143 in 1841 to 140 in 1851 and 167 in 1861. No. of houses was 28 in 1861, and in the 1901 census its 22.
Interesting also to compare the OSI 25" map (c.1900) versus the 6" map (1840's). The number of fields around Derryboy has actually increased, suggesting more intensive agriculture and subdivision between large families. Map also shows footpaths, kilns etc, all suggesting active farming.

tabbey · 05-08-2015 12:05am

The revision books, aka cancelled books, in the Valuation Office, are the simplest way of following the occupation of any townland or street.
As for census coverage, the constable enumerating a townland, would not know how his predecessor had numbered the houses ten years previously, so used his own pattern of numbering them. Houses in rural areas can be distinguished from their neighbours by looking at the class of house, number of rooms, front windows etc. If a number of houses are of similar specification, check the outhouses, they usually differ a lot, although you have to allow for additional sheds etc, built between the censuses.

Is there a way to find who lived in a particular house?

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