Our justice system - can it be overhauled?

whiskeyman · 28-07-2015 09:28AM #1

Day after day, we seem to be coming across more and more posts and news articles with unbelievable sentences for awful crimes and a growing disillusionment of judges and the judicial system they're involved with.
I think many of us realise the Gardai are in fact powerless and can only do their job to some degree, but we need an overhaul in the system to make justice work so there better deterrent or that those who break the law learn never to break it again.

But what is it going to take for this to happen?
Do we all need to have ourselves or a loved one almost killed by some scumbag, and watch that said person receive a suspended sentence before it angers us that we may actually do something about it?
Why aren't political parties weighing in to want to change this? Is it just too much of a minefield and it'll never happen?

I'm sure there many here, like myself, utterly disillusioned with the legal system here.
Will it ever change / can it change?
Who can make it happen? (no, not the garbage man unfortunately... or can he?).

Is such a rant forever banished to be the topic of Joe Duffy and his cohorts?

I didn't protest for the water charges, but if there was a protest for this, I'd be compelled to attend!

Riskymove · 28-07-2015 09:31AM

I don't know - this is all very populist and emotionally driven

we only hear about certain cases and usually where certain background s are involved to keep us annoyed.

Today's case involves a person prosecuted and found guilty and given the max sentence for the crime yet there is "outrage" at the judicial system

omahaid · 28-07-2015 09:35AM

You see how much trouble they had in getting a judicial pay cut. Best of luck with anything else. The judge involved in some of the recent very lenient sentencing would be sacked in most normal jobs. Contrast this judges sentencing on sexual/violent offences and underpayment of VAT.

Reform, not going to happen.

El Weirdo · 28-07-2015 09:51AM

If people took a little time to learn a bit about how the justice system actually worked and didn't take everything they read in tabloids at face value, then that may go some way to reduce the outrage.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but most people complaining in these threads have absolutely no clue.

For example:

Four years is not enough... he will probably be out in two

Impossible

If it was a fellow judge that was kicked in the head you can be damn sure the guy would have got 40 years without parole.

Again, impossible.

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 09:55AM

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law.

The oft repeated notion that judges are 'out of touch' is just daft. They sit in the courts day in - day out, as such they are more in touch with how the criminal justice system works than the average punter.

Other than the introduction of what are often knee jerk legal reforms the Criminal Justice system is not a source of votes, therefore nothing substantive is done to reform it. Most crime happens in working class neighbourhoods where voter turnout is low. Unless the electorate makes criminal justice an issue our current system will continue.

28-07-2015 10:14AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law.

The oft repeated notion that judges are 'out of touch' is just daft. They sit in the courts day in - day out, as such they are more in touch with how the criminal justice system works than the average punter.

Other than the introduction of what are often knee jerk legal reforms the Criminal Justice system is not a source of votes, therefore nothing substantive is done to reform it. Most crime happens in working class neighbourhoods where voter turnout is low. Unless the electorate makes criminal justice an issue our current system will continue.

I haven't seen a non murder sentence in years that didn't have years knocked off. Even in cases involving dangerous people showing zero remorse. This is pure discretion.

Also, concurrent sentencing? What law says all sentences are to be served concurrently?

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 10:41AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

I haven't seen a non murder sentence in years that didn't have years knocked off. Even in cases involving dangerous people showing zero remorse. This is pure discretion.

In the majority of cases it's the 'guilty plea discount' that gets time knocked off a sentence. If a fella admits to an offence he gets time off his sentence for saving the courts and the Gardaí the hassle of having to go through a full trial. If every case went to trial the courts would not be able to deal with the workload and would grind to a halt.

Also, concurrent sentencing? What law says all sentences are to be served
concurrently?

The reality of our criminal justice system is that we simply do not have enough prison spaces and many of our prisoners are even worse when released. I'd have no problem with concurrent sentencing for some offenders/offences, but if there is no where to actually put offenders then they will just be let out on temporary release.

RDM_83 again · 28-07-2015 10:50AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law.

The oft repeated notion that judges are 'out of touch' is just daft. They sit in the courts day in - day out, as such they are more in touch with how the criminal justice system works than the average punter.

Other than the introduction of what are often knee jerk legal reforms the Criminal Justice system is not a source of votes, therefore nothing substantive is done to reform it. Most crime happens in working class neighbourhoods where voter turnout is low. Unless the electorate makes criminal justice an issue our current system will continue.

There was a (possibly still is) a judge out the west thats an alcoholic, look for bizare sentencing in the mayo/galway area and you will find the person I am talking about (google tractor driver jailed), if thats not out of touch I dont know what is

28-07-2015 10:52AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

In the majority of cases it's the 'guilty plea discount' that gets time knocked off a sentence. If a fella admits to an offence he gets time off his sentence for saving the courts and the Gardaí the hassle of having to go through a full trial. If every case went to trial the courts would not be able to deal with the workload and would grind to a halt.

But its applied to both guilty pleas and contested cases alike. Here's one where the defendant went awol for a year, sentence reduced by half.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/young-mother-jailed-for-joining-in-on-savage-unprovoked-attack-in-which-a-man-danced-elderly-homeless-mans-head-31401783.html

Can you point to any recent cases where the full sentence was applied?

Atlantic Dawn · 28-07-2015 10:53AM

Judges should test alcoholics and drug addicts who claim to have been under the influence when they committed the crimes. If a drunk says he consumed 10 pints in 2 hours and then managed to rob a car he should be tested to see he could complete the task before he is taken pity on and released on a suspended sentence.

nokia69 · 28-07-2015 10:56AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Judges should test alcoholics and drug addicts who claim to have been under the influence when they committed the crimes. If a drunk says he consumed 10 pints in 2 hours and then managed to rob a car he should be tested to see he could complete the task before he is taken pity on and released on a suspended sentence.

would it not be better if being drunk or stoned was not accepted as some kind of excuse for bad behaviour

getting so drunk that you can't control your actions should also be a crime IMO

nokia69 · 28-07-2015 10:59AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law.

not exactly true

in any case judges have control over sentencing, and some of them seem to let scumbags commit a massive number of crimes before they see the inside of a cell

nxbyveromdwjpg · 28-07-2015 11:04AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

I'm not saying it's perfect, but most people complaining in these threads have absolutely no clue.

Never a truer word spoken.

The judges know all the facts, some people on here ie: outraged posters that feed off each other do not. Stop knee-jerking from tabloid headlines.

El Weirdo · 28-07-2015 11:05AM

nokia69 wrote: »

not exactly true

in any case judges have control over sentencing, and some of them seem to let scumbags commit a massive number of crimes before they see the inside of a cell

But they have maximum sentences for the crimes that the accused in front of them are charged with.

conorhal · 28-07-2015 11:08AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law.

The oft repeated notion that judges are 'out of touch' is just daft. They sit in the courts day in - day out, as such they are more in touch with how the criminal justice system works than the average punter.

Other than the introduction of what are often knee jerk legal reforms the Criminal Justice system is not a source of votes, therefore nothing substantive is done to reform it. Most crime happens in working class neighbourhoods where voter turnout is low. Unless the electorate makes criminal justice an issue our current system will continue.

10,693 crimes happened while the offenders were on bail for something else over the past 10 years. In the past year alone offenders on bail were responsible for 6 murders, 9 rapes and 2 kidnappings.

For starters the bail laws need a major overhaul and judges need to stop bailing individuals that are a danger to others, often giving bail to defendants for crimes comitted while already on bail. I know sombody in the courts services that will tell you of gardai practically begging judges not to grant bail to certian criminals and being ignored.

omahaid · 28-07-2015 11:10AM

nm wrote: »

Never a truer word spoken.

The judges know all the facts, some people on here ie: outraged posters that feed off each other do not. Stop knee-jerking from tabloid headlines.

By that logic we can't say anything about any decision as we never know all the facts. In reality if something smells bad we get an independent body to investigate e.g. GSOC. I see no reason why the decisions of judges should not be open to the same scrutiny.

28-07-2015 11:10AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

But they have maximum sentences for the crimes that the accused in front of them are charged with.

Show me even one person who has received the maximum sentence recently.

nokia69 · 28-07-2015 11:11AM

nm wrote: »

Never a truer word spoken.

The judges know all the facts, some people on here ie: outraged posters that feed off each other do not. Stop knee-jerking from tabloid headlines.

we know the facts too

I don't have any problem with the idea of a second chance for anyone, even a 3rd or 4th chance, but there needs to be a limit, too many scumbags in Ireland collect a massive number of convictions and it only comes to an end when they do serious life changing damage to some unfortunate person

28-07-2015 11:14AM

nm wrote: »

Never a truer word spoken.

The judges know all the facts, some people on here ie: outraged posters that feed off each other do not. Stop knee-jerking from tabloid headlines.

OK, so that lad the other day who almost killed a guy who was being robbed by his friend and received a complete suspended sentence - exactly what mitigating circumstances could there possibly be for that sentence? Seriously, even try make up some kind of circumstance that makes that sentence OK...

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 11:24AM

conorhal wrote: »

10,693 crimes happened over the past ten years while the offenders were on bail for something else in this country including six homicides, nine rapes and two kidnappings.

For starters the bail laws need a major overhaul and judges need to stop bailing individuals that a danger to others, often giving bail for crimes comitted while already on bail. I know sombody in the courts services that will tell you of gardai practically begging judges not to grant bail to certian criminals and being ignored.

The vast majority of those 10,000 offences committed by those on bail are for relatively minor offences (Breach of court orders, public order offences, possession of small amounts of drugs, theft related offences). To expect everyone charged with an offence to be placed on remand until trial is unrealistic. There are not enough prison spaces for that.

Of course anyone charged with an offence who is potentially a significant danger to the public should be kept on remand until trial. The trouble with that is that the courts and Gardaí can't predict what crimes someone on bail will commit in the future.

a new bill to reform bail laws was published last week
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/new-bail-laws-propose-more-powers-for-gardai-687873.html

jobbridge4life · 28-07-2015 11:27AM

nokia69 wrote: »

we know the facts too

I don't have any problem with the idea of a second chance for anyone, even a 3rd or 4th chance, but there needs to be a limit, too many scumbags in Ireland collect a massive number of convictions and it only comes to an end when they do serious life changing damage to some unfortunate person

Okay so what do we do with them?

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 11:29AM

omahaid wrote: »

By that logic we can't say anything about any decision as we never know all the facts. In reality if something smells bad we get an independent body to investigate e.g. GSOC. I see no reason why the decisions of judges should not be open to the same scrutiny.

If a sentence is considered too lenient the DPP can appeal to have it reviewed by the Court of Criminal Appeal

El Weirdo · 28-07-2015 11:30AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Show me even one person who has received the maximum sentence recently.

The maximum sentence is a starting point for the judge. He/she then takes into account guilty pleas, mitigating/aggravating circumstances, etc.

omahaid · 28-07-2015 11:37AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

If a sentence is considered too lenient the DPP can appeal to have it reviewed by the Court of Criminal Appeal

There is a reason GSOC isn't staffed by Gardai.

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 11:38AM

omahaid wrote: »

There is a reason GSOC isn't staffed by Gardai.

.........and the relevance of that to your earlier statement is what exactly?

28-07-2015 11:41AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

OK, so that lad the other day who almost killed a guy who was being robbed by his friend and received a complete suspended sentence - exactly what mitigating circumstances could there possibly be for that sentence? Seriously, even try make up some kind of circumstance that makes that sentence OK...

He pleaded guilty.

I'm not saying his sentence wasn't light, but on the other hand you must know that a guilty plea is the biggest mitigating factor?

nokia69 · 28-07-2015 11:47AM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Okay so what do we do with them?

lock them up, a person breaks the law and they should go to prison

I know its a radical idea, but it does work

we need to build more prisons

VisibleGorilla · 28-07-2015 12:00PM

nokia69 wrote: »

lock them up, a person breaks the law and they should go to prison

I know its a radical idea, but it does work

we need to build more prisons

No we don't, at all.. not even a little bit.

Prison should be the last resort, every other option should be explored fully before putting someone in custody.

You think that every single crime should equal custody?!

Guy:Incognito · 28-07-2015 12:03PM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Judges can only apply the laws that exist, they don't get to make the law..

Which law makes them give the guy from yesterday with 50 odd convictions a fully suspended sentence?

28-07-2015 12:07PM

nokia69 wrote: »

lock them up, a person breaks the law and they should go to prison

I know its a radical idea, but it does work

we need to build more prisons

where does it work?

Arsemageddon · 28-07-2015 12:08PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Which law makes them give the guy from yesterday with 50 odd convictions a fully suspended sentence?

Could this post be any more vague?

Our justice system - can it be overhauled?

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