€400 grant?

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 5:32pm #1

Hi folks,

Wondering if you can help answer a question please. Looking at replacing my boiler with a new one + heating controls. One installer said I could get a grant of €750 for this, plus he as the installer receives a grant of €400 which he then passes on as a €400 discount off his bill to me. The other installers I've been getting quotes from, however, don't seem to know about this €400 grant. Does anyone have any info on same please? Many thanks.

Dtp1979 · 23-07-2015 6:28pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Hi folks,

Wondering if you can help answer a question please. Looking at replacing my boiler with a new one + heating controls. One installer said I could get a grant of €750 for this, plus he as the installer receives a grant of €400 which he then passes on as a €400 discount off his bill to me. The other installers I've been getting quotes from, however, don't seem to know about this €400 grant. Does anyone have any info on same please? Many thanks.

The 400 is a carbon credit discount. So basically you get a 400 discount off your bill. This would all be arranged at the pricing stage for you. The 750 is from SEAI and your installer must be registered with them for you to be eligible for it.

DGOBS · 23-07-2015 6:29pm

€700 is for SEAI grant, Second grant is for a carbon credit scheme, not all installer maybe signed up for it.

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 6:32pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The 400 is a carbon credit discount. So basically you get a 400 discount off your bill. This would all be arranged at the pricing stage for you. The 750 is from SEAI and your installer must be registered with them for you to be eligible for it.

Thanks. Right, so €400 bill credit? Hmmm.. That's very different from what the installer told me. He said it's a grant they receive and so they discount the price I pay to them by that amount. I'll call them and see what they say. Googling €400 carbon credit now..

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 6:34pm

Googling "€400 carbon credit" not giving me anything. Anyone have any links with info? Many thanks.

Dtp1979 · 23-07-2015 6:53pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Thanks. Right, so €400 bill credit? Hmmm.. That's very different from what the installer told me. He said it's a grant they receive and so they discount the price I pay to them by that amount. I'll call them and see what they say. Googling €400 carbon credit now..

The average gas boiler change with heating controls is around 3,200. Only if you install full heating controls are you eligible for the full carbon credits discount and SEAI grant.
So you'll pay the installer 2800. he'll claim this 400 later on for himself. That way he's not losing money and youre still getting 400 off the bill. Then you'll get a further 750 off SEAI.

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 7:22pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The average gas boiler change with heating controls is around 3,200. Only if you install full heating controls are you eligible for the full carbon credits discount and SEAI grant.
So you'll pay the installer 2800. he'll claim this 400 later on for himself. That way he's not losing money and youre still getting 400 off the bill. Then you'll get a further 750 off SEAI.

Thanks. That's basically what installer 1 told me. Thing is, installer 2 is cheaper, plus his boiler is a Baxi and comes with 7 year warranty (installer 1 is an Ideal with 5 yr wty). Hence I want to go with installer 2. But when I mentioned about this €400 that he can claim, he looked like I'd put him in circular room and asked him to stand in the corner. Now I don't know what to do.

Dtp1979 · 23-07-2015 7:36pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Thanks. That's basically what installer 1 told me. Thing is, installer 2 is cheaper, plus his boiler is a Baxi and comes with 7 year warranty (installer 1 is an Ideal with 5 yr wty). Hence I want to go with installer 2. But when I mentioned about this €400 that he can claim, he looked like I'd put him in circular room and asked him to stand in the corner. Now I don't know what to do.

I What kinda prices are they coming in with?

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 8:06pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I What kinda prices are they coming in with?

Installer 1:
€2950 less 750 (I claim) less 400 (he claims) plus 200 BER = €2000 net. Boiler is Ideal with 5 year warranty.

Installer 2:
€2150 less 750 (I claim) plus 150 BER = €1550. Boiler is Baxi with 7 year warranty.

Obviously installer 2 presents the most favourable offer already, but of course if there's a further €400 that can be shaved off that it's preferable.

Dtp1979 · 23-07-2015 8:26pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Installer 1:
€2950 less 750 (I claim) less 400 (he claims) plus 200 BER = €2000 net. Boiler is Ideal with 5 year warranty.

Installer 2:
€2150 less 750 (I claim) plus 150 BER = €1550. Boiler is Baxi with 7 year warranty.

Obviously installer 2 presents the most favourable offer already, but of course if there's a further €400 that can be shaved off that it's preferable.

2150 for a boiler install with heating controls is laughable to be honest. I'd stay well clear of it. Baxi aren't great either to be honest. Even the 2950 is a bit pricey for an ideal logic boiler with controls.
Price around for better boilers like Ariston, viessmann, Worcester Bosch etc.
the price should include a mechanical and chemical powerflush of the heating system,
Magnetic filter
Roughly 2-3 days labour

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 9:25pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

2150 for a boiler install with heating controls is laughable to be honest. I'd stay well clear of it. Baxi aren't great either to be honest. Even the 2950 is a bit pricey for an ideal logic boiler with controls.
Price around for better boilers like Ariston, viessmann, Worcester Bosch etc.
the price should include a mechanical and chemical powerflush of the heating system,
Magnetic filter
Roughly 2-3 days labour

Thanks for the advice. Actually this is my in-law's house not my own. I've recently had my own boiler replaced with an Ideal. I live in England though, so different schemes apply here. Anyway, when the lads installed mine they did it in a day. Should it really take 2-3 days?

I know there are better makes than Baxi but, correct me if I'm wrong, but they're not the worst either? The sweetener is the 7 year warranty means no repair bills to worry about for that period.

Time is running out. The current boiler (an old Ideal) has been repaired several times over the 3 years they've lived the house and it's just gone again. No heat isn't a problem in the summer but no hot water is causing the occupants to smell.

Accordingly, I'm inclined to go with installer 2 and his Baxi. €1550 is attractive. I know you said steer clear, but what's the worst that could happen? The guy is SEAI registered etc (maybe I'm opening a can of worms by asking that)..

Oh, and before I forget, what's stopping installer 2 from claiming this €400 and why does he not know about it?

Dtp1979 · 23-07-2015 9:42pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. Actually this is my in-law's house not my own. I've recently had my own boiler replaced with an Ideal. I live in England though, so different schemes apply here. Anyway, when the lads installed mine they did it in a day. Should it really take 2-3 days?

I know there are better makes than Baxi but, correct me if I'm wrong, but they're not the worst either? The sweetener is the 7 year warranty means no repair bills to worry about for that period.

Time is running out. The current boiler (an old Ideal) has been repaired several times over the 3 years they've lived the house and it's just gone again. No heat isn't a problem in the summer but no hot water is causing the occupants to smell.

Accordingly, I'm inclined to go with installer 2 and his Baxi. €1550 is attractive. I know you said steer clear, but what's the worst that could happen? The guy is SEAI registered etc (maybe I'm opening a can of worms by asking that)..

Oh, and before I forget, what's stopping installer 2 from claiming this €400 and why does he not know about it?

To install a boiler you must first powerflush the system. This takes around 6-7 hours approx. then the old boiler is removed, new one hung, piped, wired and commissioned. That can't be done properly in 1 day. 1.5 - 2 days.
Then to wire heating controls usually takes another day too.
7 year warranty sounds great, but realistically, if a boiler is installed onto a clean system and wired correctly then you should have no problems.
Ideal boilers are bottom of the barrel in my opinion. Guys like fitting them cause there simple and quick to fit and "self commissioning" ( shiver ).
1550 is a complete ripoff and joke of a price. He's probably draining the system, calling it a powerflush, throwing up the boiler, turn it on and off he goes.
The worst that could happen really depends on what level of a chancer he is. Blocked heat exchanger from a dirty system which no warranty will cover. If the flue isn't cemented in place then potentially carbon monoxide poisoning.
Being SEAI reg is only a matter of filling out a form and in no way shows his level of competence.
But if your the kind of customer whose eyes light up at a cheap price then go ahead. 1500 euro is a lot of money to waste in my opinion

Kotek Besar · 23-07-2015 10:31pm

Once again, appreciate the advice. I'm going to sleep on it and do some more research tomorrow. One thing I don't understand though, are you saying €1550 (after grant deductions) is too cheap? I'm confused because at one point you said this price is a rip-off.

Incidentally, the job is located in Waterford. I imagine price would naturally be a fair bit cheaper than in, say, Dublin?

Dtp1979 · 24-07-2015 5:20am

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Once again, appreciate the advice. I'm going to sleep on it and do some more research tomorrow. One thing I don't understand though, are you saying €1550 (after grant deductions) is too cheap? I'm confused because at one point you said this price is a rip-off.

Incidentally, the job is located in Waterford. I imagine price would naturally be a fair bit cheaper than in, say, Dublin?

Installer 2 is doing the job for 2150. Yes that's just about right for a GOOD boiler install on its own. But to add heating controls and bring the installation up to SEAI spec you'd need another 1,000 at least.
It's a 3 day job. Just ask him is he powerflushing the system,
Ask is he fitting a magnetic filter
And ask how long the job will take.
The days of " Dublin prices " are well gone. Can't beat the old saying,
You get what you pay for

Kotek Besar · 24-07-2015 10:55am

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Installer 2 is doing the job for 2150. Yes that's just about right for a GOOD boiler install on its own. But to add heating controls and bring the installation up to SEAI spec you'd need another 1,000 at least.
It's a 3 day job. Just ask him is he powerflushing the system,
Ask is he fitting a magnetic filter
And ask how long the job will take.
The days of " Dublin prices " are well gone. Can't beat the old saying,
You get what you pay for

So I've just come off the phone with installer 2. No power flush as he doesn't have one. He intends to chemically flush. No magnetic filter, add €150 if I want one. He envisages the job would take 1-2 days. The boiler is a Baxi Megaflow.

Dtp1979 · 24-07-2015 12:17pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

So I've just come off the phone with installer 2. No power flush as he doesn't have one. He intends to chemically flush. No magnetic filter, add €150 if I want one. He envisages the job would take 1-2 days. The boiler is a Baxi Megaflow.

That says it all really.
Btw, a chemical flush is draining the system after pouring a cleaner into it. It's useless and pointless

Kotek Besar · 24-07-2015 12:26pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

That says it all really.
Btw, a chemical flush is draining the system after pouring a cleaner into it. It's useless and pointless

There's also an installer 3, who prices slightly more than installer 2 (Baxi) but less than installer 1 (Ideal).

Installer 3 says he'd install an Ideal Logic 18w with 5 year warranty. Power flush not included for price quoted but can re-quote to include this if I wish. However, in his opinion it's overkill and unrequired in this case because the house is only 10 years old and most of the pipe work is all plastic. He says a magnetic filter is an extra €100 supplied and fitted. He reckons this would be worth it but not the power flush.

Dtp1979 · 24-07-2015 12:37pm

Kotek Besar wrote: »

There's also an installer 3, who prices slightly more than installer 2 (Baxi) but less than installer 1 (Ideal).

Installer 3 says he'd install an Ideal Logic 18w with 5 year warranty. Power flush not included for price quoted but can re-quote to include this if I wish. However, in his opinion it's overkill and unrequired in this case because the house is only 10 years old and most of the pipe work is all plastic. He says a magnetic filter is an extra €100 supplied and fitted. He reckons this would be worth it but not the power flush.

Then installer 3 hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Overkill lol? That's a good one.
Listen, if you want a job done by a professional and carried out to professional standards then avoid your 3 installers.
If you want guys who are only telling you about flushing and magnets AFTER you question them on it then that says enough about them really

rightjob! · 24-07-2015 2:29pm

after reading this you would be better off staying away from the 3 installers.
a powerflush is essential when installing a new boiler.If you look at any boiler manufacture they will tell you the same,new boiler needs to go onto a new system.

Any decent installer would do a powerflush and a filter on the system as standard practice.

Kotek Besar · 24-07-2015 6:24pm

rightjob! wrote: »

after reading this you would be better off staying away from the 3 installers.
a powerflush is essential when installing a new boiler.If you look at any boiler manufacture they will tell you the same,new boiler needs to go onto a new system.

Any decent installer would do a powerflush and a filter on the system as standard practice.

Thanks for the PM. I've called both of those contractors, and both of them are going to give me a quote. I will let you know in due course!

Kotek Besar · 26-07-2015 11:52am

Hi folks,

Still in the process of gathering quotes. Just regarding this SEAI grant.. I read on their website..

Can I buy my own materials and get a registered contractor to do the works?

Yes a Homeowner can purchase their own materials once the grant application has been submitted & grant approval is in place and then get a registered contractor to carry out the works.

Does this mean I can buy my own boiler and have the SEAI registered installer fit it (as well as the heating controls etc) and still be eligible for the grant?

I ask because I'm suspicious they're bundling cheapo boilers with their quotes. I may be able to save money by buying a boiler myself from the UK. A boiler that I choose.

Dtp1979 · 26-07-2015 11:54am

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Hi folks,

Still in the process of gathering quotes. Just regarding this SEAI grant.. I read on their website..

Does this mean I can buy my own boiler and have the SEAI registered installer fit it (as well as the heating controls etc) and still be eligible for the grant?

I ask because I'm suspicious they're bundling cheapo boilers with their quotes. I may be able to save money by buying a boiler myself from the UK. A boiler that I choose.

Don't buy your materials. It's cheaper for you if they buy everything. Tell us here what boilers they're supplying. Ariston, Worcester Bosch, viessmann, and Valliant are top of the food chain. Other mentioned earlier, are not

MiniGolf · 27-07-2015 8:51pm

rightjob! wrote: »

after reading this you would be better off staying away from the 3 installers.
a powerflush is essential when installing a new boiler.If you look at any boiler manufacture they will tell you the same,new boiler needs to go onto a new system.

Any decent installer would do a powerflush and a filter on the system as standard practice.

^^^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^^^

If you bought a new car would you use the engine oil from your old car in it??

Just sayin.....

quazzy · 28-07-2015 8:33am

I was looking for a gas boiler upgrade and found the following quote.

Do you reckon this is decent?
DO you reckon the "flush" part is the real power flushing or some short cut

Feedback would be appreciated

Supply and install:

• Worcester Bosch 10kW – 30kW Nat gas A rated condensing boiler. 8 year manufacturers warranty applies as we are

accredited installers. Warranty is subject to yearly boiler service.

• 3 zone system controls (Living zone Radiators, bedroom zone and hot water) control pack to include: Either 2 zone 7 day

digital time clock, 1 wireless room thermostat, 1 x wireless hot water cylinder thermostat, 2 zone valves and bedroom TRV's

OR 3 zone 7 day digital time clock, 2 wireless room thermostats, 1 x wireless hot water cylinder thermostat, 3 zone valves

and no bedroom TRV's. Existing system configuration will determine which system is used.

• Immersion time clock & automatic bypass valve to ensure efficiency and boiler protection.

• Earth all metallic pipe work with 10sqm earthing cable to meet current electrical standards.

• Flush existing heating system pipe work with Magnacleanse rapidflush magnetic cleaner.

• New Worcester Bosch magnetic filter & chemical heating system protector.

• Balance heating system & issue all relevant paper work and warranties.

• Provide BER certificate & 1st year boiler service and system check.

•Investment Cost: €4000.00 including VAT@ 13.5%.

•Less grants and carbon credits: €1100.00

•You pay: €2900.00 including VAT@ 13.5%.

Notes:

•Work typically takes 2 - 3 days to complete.

Kotek Besar · 28-07-2015 12:07pm

Just to update..

What I'm looking at at the minute, quotation wise, is the following..

1x Ideal Logic HE 24 system condensing boiler
1x heating actuator
1x hot water actuator
1x hot water cylinder thermostat
1x room thermostat
1x room thermostat receiver
1x 7 day digital time clock
4/5 thermostatic radiator valves (50% of radiators)
1x time clock fitted to emersion( if not there )
Heating inhibitor added to system when finished

All labour, piping, fittings as required and Electrician.

This is not an old house and should not need power flushing we can however fit a Magnaclean filter to the system for an extra €100.

Apparently I have the choice of a Vokera boiler or an Ideal as stated, with the firm above.

The cost is €3025 before any grants. Less €750 SEAI grant, less €450 energy credit grant. €1825 is net figure + BER @ 200 = €2025 total I've to pay.

The above is with the firm I've been calling "installer 1" on this thread. They're a local gas installer in Waterford who deal with plumbing, boilers, gas fires etc. They have a retail shop in the town which is reassuring in case of any future issues.

I also contacted a guy who I'm calling "installer 4", who is based near Dublin and who was recommended on this thread by rightjob! over PM. His quotation is very similar:

€2600 after carbon credits but before grants. Less 750 SEAI, + BER @ 200 = €2050 total I've to pay. So, all in all, €25 dearer than installer 1. This guy's boiler is a Biasi pro advanced. He would install boiler, actuators, room stat, receiver, thermostatic rad valves (5). He would bring another lad with him and the job would be done in a day. He would drain system add inhibitor seals internal pipes.
no magnetic filter. Add €100 for same.

So, I've had 4 quotes so far. All near enough the same figure (€2k after grants, all in). Everyone is saying powerflushing not necessary for relatively new house, just chemical flushing, breaking down gunk etc will suffice. Everyone is saying magnetic filter is a good idea and €100 for one, supplied and fitted.

Still thinking..

Wearb · 28-07-2015 12:46pm

Contact a few of the manufacturers of the burners you are considering and ask what their position is on the need for a power flush.

roy rodgers · 28-07-2015 1:13pm

The manuals will say chemical flush.

Kotek Besar · 28-07-2015 2:04pm

Wearb wrote: »

Contact a few of the manufacturers of the burners you are considering and ask what their position is on the need for a power flush.

I've emailed Ideal. Will let you know what they say.

Egass13 · 28-07-2015 5:29pm

Why are you getting quotes for a 18kw , a 24kw and a 30kw from different installers ? Big variation in boiler sizing there

Dtp1979 · 28-07-2015 5:34pm

roy rodgers wrote: »

The manuals will say chemical flush.

The only way to properly clean a system is with good quality chemicals and a powerflushing machine. If you want to chance it OP then on ya go

28-07-2015 8:46pm

The quality of the heating water dictates the level of chemical flushing required but a power flush would be the best way to confirm a clean system.

The responsibility is purely on the installer if any water contamination is found then the warranty will not cover any repairs or boiler replacement.

Manufacturers will advise installers to flush to BS7593:1992.

On new installs the hot part of the flushing procedure (which helps break down jointing compounds, flux etc...) Is often forgotten.

Contaminated heating water I find is the biggest factor in reducing boiler longevity.

Having a clean heating system with inhibitor and a magnetic filter is the most important requirements for new boiler installations more so than the make of boiler fitted.

Kotek Besar · 29-07-2015 8:37am

I've had a reply back from Ideal.

My question:

Hi, is powerflushing mandatory when installing a new Ideal boiler? I've had four quotes for installs so far. Everyone says they would flush the system using chemicals and inhibitor seals etc., but they all say that powerflushing is not necessary on a house 10 years old. Where does Ideal stand on this?

Ideal's reply:

Thank you for your email enquiry. Due to the age of the property in which you are installing your boiler, we would recommend that the existing system be drained, cleansed, flushed with clean water, and a suitable inhibitor added upon refilling. I have included the information below, from our installation manual, that outlines our manufacturer’s guidelines.

I trust this information is useful to you.

I'm not dismissing anybody's advice on this thread. Clearly you guys are more knowledgable than me in this field and I certainly wouldn't pretend otherwise. It is just interesting to know Ideal's official viewpoint on this, and it's reassuring to know that not powerflushing wouldn't void the warranty.

Just as an aside, a fifth plumber I've been speaking to has said:

Don't touch Baxi, Ferroli, and a few others.
Good boilers would be Vokera, Worchester Bosch, Viessmann (but not worth their high price), Vallaint (but you can't adjust them. Ariston are not bad but a lot of warranty issues. Really good controls but weak components.
Ideal are not a bad little boiler, just a bit basic. Run on the high side with CO and you can't really adjust them.

Does anyone agree / disagree with the above 3 points? Additionally, any opinions on the Baisi Advance Plus?

Dtp1979 · 29-07-2015 9:00am

Kotek Besar wrote: »

I've had a reply back from Ideal.

My question:

Ideal's reply:

I'm not dismissing anybody's advice on this thread. Clearly you guys are more knowledgable than me in this field and I certainly wouldn't pretend otherwise. It is just interesting to know Ideal's official viewpoint on this, and it's reassuring to know that not powerflushing wouldn't void the warranty.

Just as an aside, a fifth plumber I've been speaking to has said:
Don't touch Baxi, Ferroli, and a few others.

Good boilers would be Vokera, Worchester Bosch, Viessmann (but not worth their high price), Vallaint (but you can't adjust them. Ariston are not bad but a lot of warranty issues. Really good controls but weak components.

Ideal are not a bad little boiler, just a bit basic. Run on the high side with CO and you can't really adjust them.

Does anyone agree / disagree with the above 3 points? Additionally, any opinions on the Baisi Advance Plus?

I've fitted aristons for years and haven't had 1 issue with any boiler I've ever fitted.

Dtp1979 · 29-07-2015 9:03am

Yes, not powerflushing will not void a warranty. But when your boiler blocks up with dirt from a half arsed " chemical flush" then I can guarantee you that the warranty will be void.
By the way, I've seen systems 1-2 years old with more dirt in them than some 30 year old systems so system age is not a factor

cerastes · 30-07-2015 9:08am

At around the 200 mark average for a ber, is that not a bit high considering the overall job being done.I'd have thought even a power flush could be open to negotiated given its not the only thing being done?

maybe the Ber is needed for the grant end but really it doesn't amount to much, got one done once and the guy was more interested in how many cfl bulbs I had than anything else.

Tommy Max · 26-07-2018 1:54pm

Why are some installers offering €500 off for efficient energy incentive and others are not. Everything else the same on offer except the additional €500 off.

Is it a no brainer to go for the installer offering this or am I missing something?

Springfields · 26-07-2018 7:16pm

Tommy Max wrote: »

Why are some installers offering €500 off for efficient energy incentive and others are not. Everything else the same on offer except the additional €500 off.

Is it a no brainer to go for the installer offering this or am I missing something?

The ones who are are probably registered installers with seai. You are only eligible for grant if you use approved installer.

Tommy Max · 26-07-2018 7:24pm

Springfields wrote: »

The ones who are are probably registered installers with seai. You are only eligible for grant if you use approved installer.

No its the €500 efficient energy incentive that some installers are offering in addition to the seai grant that i am enquiring about? anybody got info on this and why only some installers are offering or able to offer it?

€400 grant?

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