Social Democrats and Atheism

robdonn · 15-07-2015 11:41pm #1

Just reading up on this new political party, do we know much about Stephen Donnelly, Catherine Murphy and Róisín Shortall on issues such as school patronage, etc?

Edit: On my phone and can't edit the title of the thread, I meant Social Democrats.

robindch · 16-07-2015 12:21am

robdonn wrote: »

Just reading up on this new political party, do we know much about Stephen Donnelly, Catherine Murphy and Róisín Shortall on issues such as school patronage, etc?

While some of their platform is worthwhile if read from a very great distance, on a closer reading it's little more than a string of pious thoughts with no more substance than thin smoke. Certainly, their current "FFS, shure nobody shuld ever have to pay fer water coz its free loike!!11!!1" campaign suggests that they'll go the way of every other votes-over-reality politician in this country and avoid the issue.

http://www.thejournal.ie/social-democrats-2217319-Jul2015/

TheChizler · 16-07-2015 1:17am

I want to like them, Stephen Donnelly is sensible enough, most of the time, but as above on closer inspection they get a bit too social and out there.

Zamboni · 16-07-2015 6:52am

robdonn wrote: »

Just reading up on this new political party, do we know much about Stephen Donnelly, Catherine Murphy and Róisín Shortall on issues such as school patronage, etc?

Edit: On my phone and can't edit the title of the thread, I meant Social Democrats.

They may not have a position at all in the subject.
Get in and join and make it an issue for them. Attend meetings, stand up and state your position.
New parties are formed by individuals who cluster together based only on alimited range of issues.
The best point to join a political party is at the start when they need support.
The media and general public tend to unrealistically demand new party position on every issue.
They will need candidates to run...

Zamboni · 16-07-2015 6:55am

robindch wrote: »

While some of their platform is worthwhile if read from a very great distance, on a closer reading it's little more than a string of pious thoughts with no more substance than thin smoke. Certainly, their current "FFS, shure nobody shuld ever have to pay fer water coz its free loike!!11!!1" campaign suggests that they'll go the way of every other votes-over-reality politician in this country and avoid the issue.

http://www.thejournal.ie/social-democrats-2217319-Jul2015/

There is no such thing as a brand new fully formed functioning political party.
All parties start out with a string of pious thoughts

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 9:48am

I'd rather see a party with a set of principles that I can actually understand. Even the term social democracy actually sets out a bit of a philosophy.

What concerns me about FF and FG is you never really know what you're getting. They've very unclear positions on absolutely everything and the only thing that seems to unite them is a quest for power.

Labour is also somewhat to deeply connected to the trade union movement for a lot of people because a lot of us aren't represented by trade unions, other than in the public sector. Ireland doesn't really have a big history of organised labour as we weren't very industrial in the days when all that stuff happened in Britain and parts of continental Europe. I think, to a degree, that's why labour hasn't ever really gelled with the population to the degree that their counterparts elsewhere have.

Sinn Fein, despite having moved on and being all modern and progressive these days still has an element that worries a lot of people and an extreme focus on Northern Ireland issues which probably isn't necessarily all that main stream to many of us.

I'm actually glad to see alternatives emerging on the centre left. We absolutely need some stirring up of Irish politics.

Ireland has had an awful lot of centre / centre right and even socially extreme right politics over the years. There's scope for a bit of a shake up and this is the first time I've seen anything emerge that makes sense. I'm not sure that Ireland has all that much demand for another centre-right party, that's all Renua seems to be offering.

If you've a social-democratic type outlook, no harm in getting involved. They seem like 3 of our better TDs, to me anyway.

I certainly don't see secular points of view getting all that much space in FF and FG.

I don't know all that much about them, but I would certainly give them a chance based on their track record as individual TDs.

BaronVon · 16-07-2015 12:15pm

Catherine Murphy is my local TD, I would certainly not consider her religious. That said, I emailed her and my other TD's about ending religious discrimination in publically funded schools, and she never even replied!

mahoganygas · 16-07-2015 12:23pm

Back to OP's original question, does anybody know other parties view's on the question of school patronage?

What is the official line from each party?
If you can't answer for all parties, do you know the official line for individual parties?

Thanks.

lazygal · 16-07-2015 12:50pm

mahoganygas wrote: »

Back to OP's original question, does anybody know other parties view's on the question of school patronage?

What is the official line from each party?
If you can't answer for all parties, do you know the official line for individual parties?

Thanks.

Where I live, there are two Labour TDs and one Fine Gael who left because he didn't think women deserved access to abortion. All pointed me towards the same generic Dept of Ed and Skills blurb on education when I asked where I could access non denominational schools for my children.

I don't think any party cares a damn about changing the patronage model. In Dublin especially, anything that might make it difficult for parents to access the schools they went to, in particular daddy's fee paying school, is seen as not worth dealing with because most parents are happy with the system. I have a letter from the Minister for Education stating that 'demographics' dictate school allocations and as there was no need for new schools where we live, no change will be happening.

Qs · 16-07-2015 2:29pm

lazygal wrote: »

I have a letter from the Minister for Education stating that 'demographics' dictate school allocations and as there was no need for new schools where we live, no change will be happening.

From Jan O'Sullivan?

lazygal · 16-07-2015 2:52pm

Qs wrote: »

From Jan O'Sullivan?

Yes.

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 2:56pm

lazygal wrote: »

Yes.

That's disappointing.

I generally found Labour were all talk on this topic & no action in office.

Also, if demographics dictate it, then it's a deliberate government policy and not just an accident of legacy of another era.

lazygal · 16-07-2015 3:06pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's disappointing.

I generally found Labour were all talk on this topic & no action in office.

Also, if demographics dictate it, then it's a deliberate government policy and not just an accident of legacy of another era.

Yeah, I have written back stating that demographics are not a good enough reason to ignore constitutional rights. I'm waiting on a response.

I can't remember the exact wording of the letter, but its obviously a form letter, edited to refer to a particular area, sent to anyone who asked about patronage. The main thing I remember is that it stated demographics informed what schools were in an area and the priority was to ensure access to a school place, rather than for a child to be able to access eduction in an appropriate setting. As our area was not surveyed for the change in patronage process, I can surmise that no schools here will change and there are no plans to build any more as technically there are enough school places for all the children. Children having to endure indoctrination isn't taken into account clearly.

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 3:21pm

You should forward the response to her constituency office, not the Dail.

I'd like to see if that was a response by the Jan the Minister or the TD.

It's quite likely a private secretary answers mail.

lazygal · 16-07-2015 3:28pm

Believe me, I know who to contact and I know I'd get the same response regardless. I was also told by my local TDs and Senators that the Goodness me, Goodness you programme was only great, even when I pointed out that children were segregated during the school day to facilitate indoctrination.

We're thinking of moving to a different area in Dublin but the main thing holding us back is access to schools and indoctrination. Having looked at the chances of getting into an ET school in other areas we feel we have no choice but to stay put. In at least one area we'd love to live in there's 400 on a waiting list for 30 places in an ET school, but given that, as the Minister put it, the priority is physical access to a school place not the right of the child to eduction in accordance with their beliefs, we can't be sure that our children would attend any suitable school local to where we'd live. The Department will find you a place, but it might be in a completely different area and not suitable at all.

What is really frustrating is that so few people see a problem with this. Our peers shrug their shoulders about it and you get journalists like Sean O'Rourke asking people why they don't just baptise their child if they want them to go to school. The number of people who don't really believe anything religious yet will go through the ceremonies anyway baffles me.

Qs · 16-07-2015 3:37pm

Well thats the nail in the coffin for me and Labour for now then.

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 4:19pm

I'm not really sure who to vote for on this issue. They're all the same.

At times it's almost like you're actually speaking to the brainwashed when you try to have a discussion on it here in Ireland

School = nun / christian brother in their head and somehow goes with mass and communions.

Relative of mine is getting seriously unsubtle pressure from various people (many of whom I am shocked at) about not baptising their daughter.

Little snide digs like "An you're denying her her big day you". "She'll hate you for it." "What business of *yours* is it to exclude her from the community because you're being awkward" and so on.

He's an Irish atheist and his wife's not Irish and would be from a totally non-religious background.

--

All I could say is you can only imagine the outrage if Irish people in England were being told well just baptise your child as Church of England and he/she will get into the local school, otherwise you can go to the special school for the awkward 38 miles away.

There'd be protests on the streets, cases to the UN, newspaper articles in the Guardian about how the establishment was oppressing the beleaguered and downtrodden Irish community.

Put the shoe on the other foot and it's "stop being so awkward and be a catholic because this is *holy catholic Ireland*". Anyone who complains is obviously an upstart, a militant atheist, suffering from a mental illness or probably a West Brit (whatever that is).

---

I honestly think the only way that this is going to be dealt with is through international pressure both by highlighting the issue continuously abroad and probably through cases brought to the European Court of Human Rights.

It's also a major issue in deciding to relocate to Ireland with children if you're not Catholic. There really aren't very many educational options. That's inevitably going to be a major recruitment barrier for the tech sector.

lazygal · 16-07-2015 4:28pm

We got the questions like that too. When we got married, my mum ran into a neighbour I knew growing up and when my mum told her about the wedding she said she just 'couldn't get her head around' the fact we had not had a church wedding. When I told someone I was worried about the local school doing Catholic indoctrination and whether it would be suitable for our children, they said they didn't know I was Protestant. We got some comments about our children being 'left out' and other people saying they baptised so the children 'would be able to choose when they are older' about religion. The mind boggles.
My only consolation is that people have stopped sometimes and reconsidered their position based on what we say. I deliberately use the term indoctrination and I'm familiar with how religious the Alive O programme is so I can deal with any claims that its an inclusive programme.

lazygal · 16-07-2015 4:32pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's also a major issue in deciding to relocate to Ireland with children if you're not Catholic. There really aren't very many educational options. That's inevitably going to be a major recruitment barrier for the tech sector.

This is a huge problem. I know that much is made of Ireland's fee paying school sector when the Government tries to entice businesses and people to come here, and they point out how low cost it is compared to the UK and US fee paying systems. But ask anyone who's tried to get into those schools without being of the right faith or having a parent or grandparent attend how they fared, and the schools soon lose all their appeal.
This, along with women knowing they can't have an abortion here and the maternity services reflect that, are going to continue to put people off coming here and put people like me and my husband off raising children here or indeed having any more children here. If the marriage equality vote hadn't been passed we'd be looking into relocating to where my husband was born.

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 4:41pm

I'm still considering relocating.
There are several issues that just annoy me a lot and I cannot seem to see any prospect of them changing.

Do you know the National School rules even still mention laundry as an optional subject for girls!!!!

Why is this 1965 document (which looks more like 1865) even still on the books?! Do the Department actually do anything?

SpaceTime · 16-07-2015 5:06pm

I am just not sure where I would want to move though.

I'm in two minds about a few different options.

When you look at the UK, it's actually still basically a liberal theocracy with an established church and there's huge issues with education developing as the Tories push for more 'faith academies' instead of the good old social-democratic 'comprehensive model'.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-07-2015 8:51pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's also a major issue in deciding to relocate to Ireland with children if you're not Catholic. There really aren't very many educational options. That's inevitably going to be a major recruitment barrier for the tech sector.

It was rather galling to hear same-sex marriage touted as a benefit for employment and recruitment here, when the state of our maternity services (let alone abortion rights), women's rights in general and an education system that exists primarily to perpetuate a dead religion and a dead language are ignored.

SpaceTime · 17-07-2015 9:01pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It was rather galling to hear same-sex marriage touted as a benefit for employment and recruitment here, when the state of our maternity services (let alone abortion rights), women's rights in general and an education system that exists primarily to perpetuate a dead religion and a dead language are ignored.

Well, it's a step in the right direction but it's far, far from the only issue.

It does indicate the public is a good decade or so ahead of the government on these issues though.

The issue with education is you're up against two of the most conservative group in the whole country : teachers and religious orders.

The teachers are about caught up with 1987 and the religious orders have finally got to about 1954 in terms of social attitudes.

Brian Shanahan · 19-07-2015 2:28pm

robindch wrote: »

While some of their platform is worthwhile if read from a very great distance, on a closer reading it's little more than a string of pious thoughts with no more substance than thin smoke. Certainly, their current "FFS, shure nobody shuld ever have to pay fer water coz its free loike!!11!!1" campaign suggests that they'll go the way of every other votes-over-reality politician in this country and avoid the issue.

http://www.thejournal.ie/social-democrats-2217319-Jul2015/

TheChizler wrote: »

I want to like them, Stephen Donnelly is sensible enough, most of the time, but as above on closer inspection they get a bit too social and out there.

Problem a) with the water, we are currently paying through general taxation for water, when domestic rates were done away with, there was an extra 3/4% put on income tax to replace them, which was never repealed and we are also paying the LPT, which in most countries would have water rates included in the household tax or charge at the rate of supplying it, and problem b) is that the whole Irish Water set up was done to make it more easy to privatise the system down the road which would lead to less investment fewer repairs and higher leaks and charges (hence the original and current overpricing of water charges).

And the problem with decrying the left for their policies as being too far out there is that there are policies that Maggie the Milk Thief balked at for being too nakedly right wing that are now being decried as being dangerously leftist. Look at Syriza, they've been demonised as far left and neo-Marxist for years now but when push came to shove they turned out to be Blairite right wingers with faux concern for the poor. The problem with modern politics are that the parties are almost universally hard right (i.e. kill social protection, give money to the rich, and remove what little brakes there are to bad practise amongst the biggest companies) with no dissenting voices either in the intelligensia, political class or the media. There is no opposition in the hallways of power, despite the fact that in most of Europe the majorty want social democracy in some shape or form.

Brian Shanahan · 19-07-2015 2:45pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Labour is also somewhat to deeply connected to the trade union movement for a lot of people because a lot of us aren't represented by trade unions, other than in the public sector. Ireland doesn't really have a big history of organised labour as we weren't very industrial in the days when all that stuff happened in Britain and parts of continental Europe. I think, to a degree, that's why labour hasn't ever really gelled with the population to the degree that their counterparts elsewhere have.

Labour's problem is the opposite, actually. They have too effectively disassociated themselves from the working-class groups they were originally set up to represent. Outside of SIPTU, I don't think there is a single one of the Trades Union still affiliated to the party (I know mine, the CPSU, isn't and neither are any of the other civil service unions). They moved away from being economically left-wing to being socially liberal without realising that there are no votes for them higher up the economic ladder because for D4 and the likes they are still counted as being too working class, and even though the working classes have socially liberalised in the last few years (for example the biggest yes votes in the last referendum in Limerick were in the likes of Moyross and Southill) there is now no place for Labour as their position has been taken, mainly by SF in this country.

It's leading me likely to do what I thought was unthinkable a few years ago, and vote SF myself.

SpaceTime · 19-07-2015 2:52pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Labour's problem is the opposite, actually. They have too effectively disassociated themselves from the working-class groups they were originally set up to represent. Outside of SIPTU, I don't think there is a single one of the Trades Union still affiliated to the party (I know mine, the CPSU, isn't and neither are any of the other civil service unions). They moved away from being economically left-wing to being socially liberal without realising that there are no votes for them higher up the economic ladder because for D4 and the likes they are still counted as being too working class, and even though the working classes have socially liberalised in the last few years (for example the biggest yes votes in the last referendum in Limerick were in the likes of Moyross and Southill) there is now no place for Labour as their position has been taken, mainly by SF in this country.

It's leading me likely to do what I thought was unthinkable a few years ago, and vote SF myself.

I think though that's where labours way off the mark. Most people will be gritting their teeth somewhat voting SF but it's because labour isn't behaving like a socialist party anymore.

What I'm saying is that Ireland doesn't actually have an old industrial base where a Labour Party would normally draw support. That's resulted in it totally losing the plot. They're often representing issues from the point of view of establishment civil servants more than the grass roots and that will and is killing them.

I don't know where SF stand on a lot of liberal issues and that worries me as Ireland comes from a very right wing (socially) legacy that absolutely needs to change.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-07-2015 8:19pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Problem a) with the water, we are currently paying through general taxation for water

There are two major problems with that.

(a) people who don't avail of mains water and sewerage still have to pay in taxes for a service they can't use, and pay again for wells/group water scheme/septic tank. Yes, it's their choice to live in the middle of nowhere and I detest one-off housing for anyone who isn't living off the land, but it's still unjust.

(b) we do not and never have paid nearly enough in taxes to fund our water services properly. This is why we have so many leaks, boil notices, and disgusting raw sewage outfalls. We need to invest approximately twice as much in water services as we historically have done, but politically that has been way down the priority list and it's only now that the system is literally at breaking point that we recognise our traditional half-assed approach can't work any more.

and problem b) is that the whole Irish Water set up was done to make it more easy to privatise the system down the road which would lead to less investment fewer repairs and higher leaks and charges (hence the original and current overpricing of water charges).

Privatisation is a huge red herring, politically the level of water charges which would permit that is impossible and IW requires and will require large subsidies from general taxation.

Look at Syriza, they've been demonised as far left and neo-Marxist for years now but when push came to shove they turned out to be Blairite right wingers with faux concern for the poor.

Yeah, damn them for eventually realising the free money tree was barren of fruit :rolleyes:

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I know mine, the CPSU, isn't and neither are any of the other civil service unions

The civil service is supposed to be politically neutral and grades above CPSU are not allowed to be members of political parties, so their unions really shouldn't be politically affiliated either. Fat lot of good it did the CPSU anyway...

D4

Like Irishtown, or Ringsend where my mother-in-law is from?
I hate this lazy shorthand for lazy thinking.

It's leading me likely to do what I thought was unthinkable a few years ago, and vote SF myself.

SF are very far from being a socially liberal party, look at their abortion stance up north.

recedite · 19-07-2015 11:29pm

infacteh wrote: »

Catherine Murphy is my local TD, I would certainly not consider her religious. That said, I emailed her and my other TD's about ending religious discrimination in publically funded schools, and she never even replied!

Interesting. Stephen Donnelly is my local TD. I contacted him about the religious discrimination being enshrined into the adnmissions policy of a new (publicly owned and funded) secondary school that is currently being built. He also never replied.
I think these people are like most politicians; afraid to take a position on anything unless it seems like a good "populist" move. Donnelly has a background in economics and was outspoken on the banking crisis, but then when he was appointed to the actual banking tribunal he resigned.
IMO a lot of these "social democrat" lefties actually prefer sniping from the the sidelines. When they have a chance at real power they baulk at it and retreat, because exercising power and responsibilities might cost them their populist vote.
He talked to Lucinda Creighton previously about joining her new party, before deciding it was too "right wing".
I doubt this venture will be good for Donnelly because part of the kudos of the political independents is just that; they appeal to people who are fed up with the political parties.
Still, he's the best of a bad lot so I'll probably continue voting for him.

Brian Shanahan · 20-07-2015 12:34am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

(b) we do not and never have paid nearly enough in taxes to fund our water services properly. This is why we have so many leaks, boil notices, and disgusting raw sewage outfalls. We need to invest approximately twice as much in water services as we historically have done, but politically that has been way down the priority list and it's only now that the system is literally at breaking point that we recognise our traditional half-assed approach can't work any more.

And the Irish Water system will guarantee that there will be less funding, and at a higher cost, than if the whole kit and kaboodle was kept in house. The only rationale for the current set up is to soften up the water system for a quick and dirty privatisation. This will in no way fix the water system in the country, only make it worse.

I'll read the post in full tomorrow.

SpaceTime · 20-07-2015 8:51am

I have a horrible feeling the Irish water thing came about from intense lobbying of the European Commission. There are a lot of vested interest huge European water utilities and metering outfits that are very able to spin a persuasive environmental argument that's actually about profit.

The way it was somehow snuck in as a rider to the T&Cs of the bailout always seemed to be rather dodgy to me.

Ireland avoided a lot of privatisations but, there really is a bad smell around some of how the whole thing worked.

Ireland's economic crisis was caused by mismanagement of a property bubble that caused a banking melt down and the loss of an entire 1/4 of the economy and all the social spending and loss of taxes associated with that - it was not lack of water charges or crazy public expenditure.

I felt the commission in particular stuck it's ore in in a very odd way into micromanaging things that it has a particular obsession with. This water charges thing was most definitely rammed through.

It's been a political disaster, yet they keep pushing and pushing it. You'd really wonder what the bailout suppliers threatened.

Brian Shanahan · 20-07-2015 2:24pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I have a horrible feeling the Irish water thing came about from intense lobbying of the European Commission. There are a lot of vested interest huge European water utilities and metering outfits that are very able to spin a persuasive environmental argument that's actually about profit.

As far as I can remember it was one of the public utilities that they specifically mentioned "needing privatisation". That's the problem with the EU currently, they've gone away from the original ideas of mutual assistance and cooperation to a full fledged neo-liberal "free" market ideological steamroller, and it's making all of Europe the poorer and more dangerous for it.

Social Democrats and Atheism

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