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Department of Education to increase class sizes

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Comments

  • #32
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    I am one person in a union of what, 50,000 members?

    We cannot refuse to teach a class. We just can't. It is not an option.

    Directives aren't always adhered to, as I've stated, so even if one WAS issued - who is really going to benefit? Would parents be happy with Ms. Purple Cow if she refuses to teach because there are 29 children in her class?! I doubt it! Have to pick your battles. Remember INTO were one of the few unions who recommended an acceptance of LRA so....... we, yes we, as a union, don't have much of a backbone!
    Go to union meetings. Bring it up. Get your union rep to bring it further. Make a motion for congress...

    You can refuse to teach a class if your union has a directive that says you shouldn't take a class larger than the recommended class size. If Ms. Purple Cow and Mr. Yellow Elephant and Mrs. Red Monkey, and animals of all colours all over Ireland refuse, it will have an effect. arents may not realise that you are doing what you are doing for the long term benefit of Irish children.

    If directives aren't adhered to, the individuals should be disciplined by the union.


  • #33
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    Go to union meetings. Bring it up. Get your union rep to bring it further. Make a motion for congress...

    You can refuse to teach a class if your union has a directive that says you shouldn't take a class larger than the recommended class size. If Ms. Purple Cow and Mr. Yellow Elephant and Mrs. Red Monkey, and animals of all colours all over Ireland refuse, it will have an effect. arents may not realise that you are doing what you are doing for the long term benefit of Irish children.

    If directives aren't adhered to, the individuals should be disciplined by the union.

    I do go to meetings. I'm staff rep actually. Motions for Congress aren't always prioritised either - see NQT equalisation.

    If Ms. Purple Cow decides not to teach a class, others will step in.
    Teachers do not want to create a fuss.
    It's not that simple.


  • #34
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    I do go to meetings. I'm staff rep actually. Motions for Congress aren't always prioritised either - see NQT equalisation.

    If Ms. Purple Cow decides not to teach a class, others will step in.
    Teachers do not want to create a fuss.
    It's not that simple.

    I do know who unions work...as do you, clearly. You have to keep plugging away, persuading people of the value of your case. Or just sit back and accept.

    Actually some teachers DO want to create a fuss, and are not prepared to sit back and take everything dished out to them. They do so not for their own sake, but in the interest of their students and future students.

    If you get a union directive, and you follow it, and another teacher steps in the breach, they are scabs. And should be, as I said, disciplined by their union.

    You have a strange attitude for a union rep, I have to say.


  • #35
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    I do know who unions work...as do you, clearly. You have to keep plugging away, persuading people of the value of your case. Or just sit back and accept.

    Actually some teachers DO want to create a fuss, and are not prepared to sit back and take everything dished out to them. They do so not for their own sake, but in the interest of their students and future students.

    If you get a union directive, and you follow it, and another teacher steps in the breach, they are scabs. And should be, as I said, disciplined by their union.

    You have a strange attitude for a union rep, I have to say.

    Teachers do not want to fight.

    You saw how 1) INTO were so quick to recommend a YES vote for the LRA and secondly 2) How the members accepted it

    I also work with people who believe that strikes are 'so so wrong'.

    I'm a fairly active member at my local meetings, I stay informed & inform all my staff frequently.

    It's not enough to change the world, but I take your point and in an ideal world, it might work. Campaigning and lobbying in September again will have to be the way it goes for now.


  • #36
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Teachers do not want to fight.

    You saw how 1) INTO were so quick to recommend a YES vote for the LRA and secondly 2) How the members accepted it

    I also work with people who believe that strikes are 'so so wrong'.

    I'm a fairly active member at my local meetings, I stay informed & inform all my staff frequently.

    It's not enough to change the world, but I take your point and in an ideal world, it might work. Campaigning and lobbying in September again will have to be the way it goes for now.

    No, teachers don't want to fight. But sometimes they have to fight to make things better.

    It sounds like your members are not really interested in improving things, just in not rocking the boat.


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  • #37
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    No, teachers don't want to fight. But sometimes they have to fight to make things better.

    It sounds like your members are not really interested in improving things, just in not rocking the boat.

    Yes, were you not aware of that?! :( Sad but true


  • #38
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Yes, were you not aware of that?! :( Sad but true

    Oh, I am indeed aware of it. The INTO are particularly non-confrontational. It doesn't mean that those of you who have some cojones shouldn't try. Why else are you school rep?


  • #39
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    Oh, I am indeed aware of it. The INTO are particularly non-confrontational. It doesn't mean that those of you who have some cojones shouldn't try. Why else are you school rep?

    Why? Because nobody else wants to do it, nobody else goes to meetings (ever) and I happen to have an interest in it.


  • #40
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Why? Because nobody else wants to do it, nobody else goes to meetings (ever) and I happen to have an interest in it.

    I know about the pathetic attendances. Same in my place. But you have to keep plugging away.


  • #41
    Robsweezie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Robsweezie


    Good to hear. I was put back a year when I was supposed to be entering third class in a new school due to overcrowding, so I ended up in second class and as a result was a always a year behind what I was technically meant to be. I finished school at a slightly older age, I did TY(optional in some schools) which meant even later. For example finishing the leaving cert when I would've been finishing my first year college exams if I hadn't of been put back in primary . But I'm not complaining, it didn't affect me in any negative way.


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  • #42
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    That's interesting. I've known classes of 35/36! I wonder what was classed as 'overcrowding' in your particular sense as i've never heard of that happening!


  • #43
    Robsweezie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Robsweezie


    purplecow1977 wrote:
    That's interesting. I've known classes of 35/36! I wonder what was classed as 'overcrowding' in your particular sense as i've never heard of that happening!

    I don't know, maybe they had their student quota rigidly filled out, then I came along and they weren't allowed squeeze me in??? I haven't a clue. Is there a law enforcing the limit on class sizes?


  • #44
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    No law, no ceiling on the amount that can be in a class! That's why I find it strange! My friend taught 36 Junior infants one year!!


  • #45
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I taught 42 junior infants in 1990.


  • #46
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I taught 42 junior infants in 1990.

    Thankfully those days are gone!

    Out of interest, do you feel the class size made a difference?

    I mean, with 42 children in a class, surely there's less time & attention given to those struggling? At least, I find that the case in my class of 30 (not Junior Infants) and many lessons are aimed towards 'the middle' as there's simply not enough time each day to focus on those struggling. I hate to admit that, but it's true. I just wonder then with class sizes so much bigger in the past, if adequate time and support COULD be given to weaker children, or if it is our 'new' curriculum that provides such a challenge?


  • #47
    pooch90
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,425 ✭✭✭pooch90


    I was a pupil in a 6th class of 41 in 97.
    Those below the middle definitely got left by the way-side.
    There was simply no time to differentiate in a class with behaviour/socio-economic issues etc added in. It could be no more than crowd control and teach to the middle.

    In September, I will have 30 Senior Infants, a few of which have major behavioural issues but those of course are still waiting on assessment and then it will be a further wait until any resources or guidance on how to deal with those issues is presented.

    I think the introduction of the new curriculum was a good idea in theory. Presenting teachers with new methodologies etc could only make their teaching more inclusive. However, there is just too much to be covered that it can become an exercise in box ticking, cutting the time that you can really work with those struggling/push on those more capable. Add in external teachers for drama, days for swimming (which means a full 1/2 day gone from teaching when you are a rural school), external drama, Christmas plays, religious sacraments etc. It's just too much.


  • #48
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    pooch90 wrote: »
    I was a pupil in a 6th class of 41 in 97.
    Those below the middle definitely got left by the way-side.
    There was simply no time to differentiate in a class with behaviour/socio-economic issues etc added in. It could be no more than crowd control and teach to the middle.

    In September, I will have 30 Senior Infants, a few of which have major behavioural issues but those of course are still waiting on assessment and then it will be a further wait until any resources or guidance on how to deal with those issues is presented.

    I think the introduction of the new curriculum was a good idea in theory. Presenting teachers with new methodologies etc could only make their teaching more inclusive. However, there is just too much to be covered that it can become an exercise in box ticking, cutting the time that you can really work with those struggling/push on those more capable. Add in external teachers for drama, days for swimming (which means a full 1/2 day gone from teaching when you are a rural school), external drama, Christmas plays, religious sacraments etc. It's just too much.
    So why are the INTO just taking it lying down?


  • #49
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Thankfully those days are gone!

    Out of interest, do you feel the class size made a difference?

    I mean, with 42 children in a class, surely there's less time & attention given to those struggling? At least, I find that the case in my class of 30 (not Junior Infants) and many lessons are aimed towards 'the middle' as there's simply not enough time each day to focus on those struggling. I hate to admit that, but it's true. I just wonder then with class sizes so much bigger in the past, if adequate time and support COULD be given to weaker children, or if it is our 'new' curriculum that provides such a challenge?

    There was no question of taking individual differences into account, it was teach to the middle and hope others might get something. In hindsight there were at least 3 children with significant behavioural needs (and not because the NQT couldn't manage) To be honest, I wonder how much the children really learned. To even listen to each child read for a minute took the best part of an hour, before I ever tried to teach them.

    The revised curriculum is great, if we had the class sizes, resources and time to actually teach all of it.


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