Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

P_1 · 16-07-2015 10:16PM

andrew wrote: »

What do you/does the non binary community have in mind? From my understanding, It strikes me as something that'd be very difficult to incorporate into legislation, what with the numerous shades of in-between that can exist between male and female.

Something akin to what ACT have in place comes to mind. You can have the gender field marked either M, F, or X.

andrew · 16-07-2015 10:32PM

P_1 wrote: »

andrew wrote: »

What do you/does the non binary community have in mind? From my understanding, It strikes me as something that'd be very difficult to incorporate into legislation, what with the numerous shades of in-between that can exist between male and female.

Something akin to what ACT have in place comes to mind. You can have the gender field marked either M, F, or X.

Whelp that's far less difficult than what I thought.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 16-07-2015 10:39PM

P_1 wrote: »

In short, it won't. Various sporting bodies have had procedures in place for trans athletes for years now.

Slightly unhappy that the bill is only written in terms of binary genders though, it had the scope to go so much further

If the government decide that transgendered people can determine what gender they are I wonder if they would be able to take the GAA,FAI IRFU etc to court if they were denied a chance to play as awoman while being born a man.

Renée Richards was born a man but won the right to compete as a woman in tennis which was quite unfair in my opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

Cuban Pete · 16-07-2015 10:42PM

You do know "transgender people" includes trans men, right?

kunst nugget · 17-07-2015 08:23AM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If the government decide that transgendered people can determine what gender they are I wonder if they would be able to take the GAA,FAI IRFU etc to court if they were denied a chance to play as awoman while being born a man.

Renée Richards was born a man but won the right to compete as a woman in tennis which was quite unfair in my opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

Her own opinion is that trans women should not be allowed to compete professionally.

Despite all this, Richards has expressed ambivalence about her legacy. She continues to take pride in being “the first one who stood up for the rights of transsexuals.” But she also mused, “Maybe in the last analysis, maybe not even I should have been allowed to play on the women’s tour. Maybe I should have knuckled under and said, ‘That’s one thing I can’t have as my newfound right in being a woman.’ I think transsexuals have every right to play, but maybe not at the professional level, because it’s not a level playing field.” She opposes the International Olympic Committee’s ruling in 2004 that transgender people can compete after they’ve had surgery and two years of hormonal therapy.

The science of distinguishing men from women in sports remains unsettled. And Richards has come to believe that her past as a man did provide her advantages over competitors. “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.” She adds, “There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field. She can get married, live as woman, do all of those other things, and no one should ever be allowed to take them away from her. But this limitation—that’s just life. I know because I lived it.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/10/jewish_jocks_and_ren_e_richards_the_life_of_the_transsexual_tennis_legend.2.html

zeffabelli · 17-07-2015 08:26AM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

How will this affect sport?

Say a transgender person decides they want to play for a ladies football or camogie team will they be allowed to play.It would give them a bit of unfair advantage over the other players.

How will this affect schools?

kunst nugget · 17-07-2015 08:52AM

zeffabelli wrote: »

How will this affect schools?

Considering it only allows for self determination after 18, 16-18 year olds requiring medical observation, parental consent and a court order and no legal provision for under 16s, I imagine it will make little to no difference to schools.

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 10:04AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Considering it only allows for self determination after 18, 16-18 year olds requiring medical observation, parental consent and a court order and no legal provision for under 16s, I imagine it will make little to no difference to schools.

I'd be concerned as a parent outside of school at the swimming pool or other places where the kids get changed. I would have a problem with a trans person not in there natural changing room but their declared one. Kids might not mind but personally I would.
I'd also be uncomfortable myself in that situation.
I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms and I would rather they stuck with the changing room that matched their wobbly bits.

P_1 · 17-07-2015 10:08AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be concerned as a parent outside of school at the swimming pool or other places where the kids get changed. I would have a problem with a trans person not in there natural changing room but their declared one. Kids might not mind but personally I would.
I'd also be uncomfortable myself in that situation.
I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms and I would rather they stuck with the changing room that matched their wobbly bits.

No please let us not have that American idiocy reach our side of the Atlantic. People use changing rooms to change their clothes, nothing more, nothing less.

seamus · 17-07-2015 10:09AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be concerned as a parent outside of school at the swimming pool or other places where the kids get changed. I would have a problem with a trans person not in there natural changing room but their declared one. Kids might not mind but personally I would.
I'd also be uncomfortable myself in that situation.
I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms and I would rather they stuck with the changing room that matched their wobbly bits.

Why?

jaymcg91 · 17-07-2015 10:12AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

wobbly bits.

Really? I'd be more concerned about a grown adult using terminology like that :pac:.

kunst nugget · 17-07-2015 10:20AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be concerned as a parent outside of school at the swimming pool or other places where the kids get changed. I would have a problem with a trans person not in there natural changing room but their declared one. Kids might not mind but personally I would.
I'd also be uncomfortable myself in that situation.
I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms and I would rather they stuck with the changing room that matched their wobbly bits.

So you think the kids won't mind but you're going to use them as an excuse because you feel uncomfortable?

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 10:21AM

seamus wrote: »

Why?

Just from a boys point of view and a parent of them, I don't want to put the guys in a situation where there having a shower, see a pretty lady walk in the and then much to their surprise said lady has a 3 piece suite when she heads to the shower. Or the opposite way round, said man has no furniture. I'm not comfortable with it and don't want to expose my children to it.
I'd say a lot of parents would feel the same.

kunst nugget · 17-07-2015 11:14AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just from a boys point of view and a parent of them, I don't want to put the guys in a situation where there having a shower, see a pretty lady walk in the and then much to their surprise said lady has a 3 piece suite when she heads to the shower. Or the opposite way round, said man has no furniture. I'm not comfortable with it and don't want to expose my children to it.
I'd say a lot of parents would feel the same.

I'm the same way with people with physical and mental disabilities. I'm like 'Get out of the changing room. You're making me uncomfortable. I'm a parent!'

seamus · 17-07-2015 11:14AM

So it's icky. Grand, glad we got that out of the way.

zeffabelli · 17-07-2015 11:50AM

seamus wrote: »

So it's icky. Grand, glad we got that out of the way.

I get what he's saying.

I was socialised as were a lot of women, to be very discreet around men, and no matter what the hoi polloi cry, I won't ever see a trans gender as a woman, ever.

Clearlier · 17-07-2015 11:54AM

zeffabelli wrote: »

I get what he's saying.

I was socialised as were a lot of women, to be very discreet around men, and no matter what the hoi polloi cry, I won't ever see a trans gender as a woman, ever.

You will, you just won't know it.

zeffabelli · 17-07-2015 11:55AM

Clearlier wrote: »

You will, you just won't know it.

If you say so.

seamus · 17-07-2015 11:57AM

zeffabelli wrote: »

I was socialised as were a lot of women, to be very discreet around men, and no matter what the hoi polloi cry, I won't ever see a trans gender as a woman, ever.

Is that not basically the same as saying, "I was brought up to believe that a woman's place is in the home and no matter what people now say, I believe that all women should be forced to quit when they have children".

Just because you were raised with one particular attitude, doesn't mean that society is required to pander to that attitude so that you don't have to change your frame of mind.

zeffabelli · 17-07-2015 12:02PM

seamus wrote: »

Is that not basically the same as saying, "I was brought up to believe that a woman's place is in the home and no matter what people now say, I believe that all women should be forced to quit when they have children".

Just because you were raised with one particular attitude, doesn't mean that society is required to pander to that attitude so that you don't have to change your frame of mind.

No it's not the same.

It doesn't mean society has to pander to the transgender community either. Or any other group.

Ultimately it comes down to business and whether or not policy will alienate customers and they lose money.

Even Jenners kids are still calling him Dad.

kunst nugget · 17-07-2015 12:07PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

No it's not the same.

It doesn't mean society has to pander to the transgender community either. Or any other group.

Ultimately it comes down to business and whether or not policy will alienate customers and they lose money.

So businesses should be made to not treat transgender men and women with dignity and respect because you don't accept them? Fair play!

rainbow kirby · 17-07-2015 12:33PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd be concerned as a parent outside of school at the swimming pool or other places where the kids get changed. I would have a problem with a trans person not in there natural changing room but their declared one. Kids might not mind but personally I would.
I'd also be uncomfortable myself in that situation.
I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms and I would rather they stuck with the changing room that matched their wobbly bits.

If you're that paranoid, use a swimming pool which has a changing village with cubicles. Job done.

seenitall · 17-07-2015 12:39PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not saying trans people are any kind of threat but they would be outside the norms

Oh noes, not outside the norms!

What's this world coming to, I ask you...

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 12:48PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

If you're that paranoid, use a swimming pool which has a changing village with cubicles. Job done.

Or make it a law that you use the showers/toilets that are appropiate to your visable sex - thats not discrimination its just appropiate behavior respecting others.

wp_rathead · 17-07-2015 12:55PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Or make it a law that you use the showers/toilets that are appropiate to your visable sex - thats not discrimination its just appropiate behavior respecting others.

My irony metre just exploded

PopePalpatine · 17-07-2015 01:01PM

So, let me get this right:

1. Undergo expensive surgery
2. Undergo months, maybe years of hormonal therapy
3. Suffer the slings and arrows of David Quinn, Cora Sherlock, Fr. Brian McKevitt & co., little scumbags, bigoted neckbeards etc.
4. ?????
5. Profit!

Links234 · 17-07-2015 01:02PM

**** like this is why I've never gone to a public swimming pool or gym in years, and probably never will.

KomradeBishop · 17-07-2015 01:07PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

I get what he's saying.

I was socialised as were a lot of women, to be very discreet around men, and no matter what the hoi polloi cry, I won't ever see a trans gender as a woman, ever.

That's treating things as if that attitude is fixed and unchangeable though? You have the control to change that attitude; it's something that would likely take time (so it's understandable if you will still feel that way for a while), but you have the ability to change that.

It's the same with gay people - similar attitudes used to be prevalent in society about people who are gay, and over time that has been slowly changing - and this change in attitude is something that is now expected of people.

Personally, I like seeking out things that challenge my perceptions/attitude like that - it's one of the more challenging but beneficial aspects of engaging in critical thinking.

P_1 · 17-07-2015 01:08PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Or make it a law that you use the showers/toilets that are appropiate to your visable sex - thats not discrimination its just appropiate behavior respecting others.

Yes if you mean the gender you are presenting as, that's simple common sense and doesn't really need to be legislated for.

Fcuk no if you mean what you have between your legs, we have no need for that crap that is coming from Republicans in the Hick States.

drunkmonkey · 17-07-2015 01:10PM

Links234 wrote: »

**** like this is why I've never gone to a public swimming pool or gym in years, and probably never will.

Any ideas what would work for everyone, i dont think its unfair to say use the appropiate room for what your body looks like. I dont see how doing that means you couldnt go for a swim this eveing and nobody would bat an eyelid. Now rocking in with a mans bits in a girls swimming outfit is going to cause a bit of a stir..

Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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