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Postcodes released

124

Comments

  • #92
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    lima wrote: »
    ...Perhaps I don't understand, but using a postcode to find an address will find an exact address, whereas in the UK it will only find an area of up to 80 addresses. This makes it easier to find an address, no?

    There are times when you want to find a general area rather than an exact location.

    Say you were looking for used cars in the general area. All those kind of general searches will have to use the eircode database. Or ignore it completely and just use the description, or an alternative system.


  • #93
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    lima wrote: »
    No it's not

    It is to make sorting mail quicker and more accurate

    Perhaps I don't understand, but using a postcode to find an address will find an exact address, whereas in the UK it will only find an area of up to 80 addresses. This makes it easier to find an address, no?

    No Britain better. Ireland bad.


  • #94
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    beauf wrote: »
    There are times when you want to find a general area rather than an exact location.

    Say you were looking for used cars in the general area. All those kind of general searches will have to use the eircode database. Or ignore it completely and just use the description, or an alternative system.

    You can still use the first part of the Eircode to get the general area.


  • #95
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    mdebets wrote: »
    Just tried the search on my old address (an apartment building in Dublin 7) and the apartments on the same floor and I really want to have what they were smoking when they were designing this system.
    All apartments have totally different numbers, with the only information you get, is that it is located in Dublin 7 (You knew that by putting a 7 after Dublin in your address). So how are they supposed to help you, find an address?
    The "randomness" (it's actually anything but random) of the codes allows for error detection and correction if a mistake is present in the address or code, or both, on a package for instance. The codes for nearby properties will be very different, therefore they will with a very high degree of accuracy be able to get the package to the right door. You could build error correction into the code itself, but it would be at a much more basic level and at the cost of adding extra digits and making it less memorable.


  • #96
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    You can still use the first part of the Eircode to get the general area.

    Only the highest granularity.

    But that intentional. Its designed so you have to use their services (pay) for anything beyond very basic use.


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  • #97
    lima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    No Britain better. Ireland bad.

    Please, I would like to hear an opinion on why


  • #98
    lima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    beauf wrote: »
    Only the highest granularity.

    But that intentional. Its designed so you have to use their services (pay) for anything beyond very basic use.

    There is no secret payment to get specific area coverage.

    Seriously why do Irish not like change.. It has screwed up our country to date


  • #99
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    All of the attacks on this system proves not that the system is problematic ...

    Well you can certain assume that, if you also assume there isn't some use case you haven't considered.
    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    ....I doubt if the "open source" alternatives would find the rural house in deepest Mayo....

    I'm guessing that all these coding systems not just a shorthand for GPS co-ords, to aid usability for people and systems. GPS can find anything anywhere.


  • #100
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    lima wrote: »
    There is no secret payment to get specific area coverage.

    Seriously why do Irish not like change.. It has screwed up our country to date

    You're putting 2+2=47 there.

    Specific is very no specific term in this context. It all depends on what you want to use it for.

    The issue isn't simply that people don't like change. But also people disregard any use case that they haven't thought of, and/or isn't something of interest to themselves.


  • #101
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Nothing wrong with making it commercially focused. Unless that commercialisation means it isn't widely used.


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  • #102
    lima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    beauf wrote: »
    You're putting 2+2=47 there.

    Specific is very no specific term in this context. It all depends on what you want to use it for.

    The issue isn't simply that people don't like change. But also people disregard any use case that they haven't thought of, and/or isn't something of interest to themselves.

    Even if, say, it had granularity to 300m, you would still need to look up an address to find out where it is so this use case is not actually very useful on its own.

    It's a use case that was obviously not deemed important by the creators, and I would trust their design decisions over common people who have a track record for complaining online about things paid for by tax money.

    Anyway, it's here and one cannot use it to search for things close to a specific postcode (other than a larger than expected area) so how do people change their mindset and learn to embrace it in other ways?


  • #103
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    lima wrote: »
    Even if, say, it had granularity to 300m, you would still need to look up an address to find out where it is so this use case is not actually very useful on its own.

    It's a use case that was obviously not deemed important by the creators, and I would trust their design decisions over common people who have a track record for complaining online about things paid for by tax money.

    Anyway, it's here and one cannot use it to search for things close to a specific postcode (other than a larger than expected area) so how do people change their mindset and learn to embrace it in other ways?

    The postcodes in Edinburgh can be like the areas of Dublin. EH1 and EH2 are city centre. You can usually tell then that higher numbers are further away (in a spiral away from the centre rather than Dublin's even south, odd north method). The next three digits/characters are then on a sub-sector for the first number and a random two letter combination for the street.

    Noone knows that level of detail. They'll know the EHX bit but never the sector. Even in my own sector, the area is over a mile across and maybe half a mile wide. Not very useful, not to mention in rural areas that can be much bigger.

    The problems with the postcodes in the UK are numerous. I know my company's hq give one postcode for post, and one for directions because of satnavs/Google maps automatically going to the centre of a postcode.

    I work with someone who always gets calls from delivery drivers since the postcode sends them half a mile down the road.

    Taxi drivers here do not use postcodes, they have 'the knowledge'. You might say people going to places they're less accustomed to could use the postcodes but as seen above there are problems with that.


  • #104
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    lima wrote: »
    Even if, say, it had granularity to 300m, you would still need to look up an address to find out where it is so this use case is not actually very useful on its own.

    It's a use case that was obviously not deemed important by the creators, and I would trust their design decisions over common people who have a track record for complaining online about things paid for by tax money.

    Anyway, it's here and one cannot use it to search for things close to a specific postcode (other than a larger than expected area) so how do people change their mindset and learn to embrace it in other ways?

    I would say its not that it wasn't deemed important. But that they decided on a tipping point (the range) where the commercialisation of the data could be maximised.

    If I was developing any system, or stats based on geographical location, say for a business or a not for profit organisation, or indeed public sector information. I can not use the Eircode location. I would either have to use their service. Or do what I do currently, which is either to capture the GPS location at source (smartphone or device) and/or derive it from some lookup of text descriptions of addresses.

    I would say most places who do this, already have some form of lookup in place, like I do. I have to cater for the lowest common denominator which is addresses with no geocoding, just text addresses. I would guess, if I was doing this commercially which I'm not, it wouldn't take much for the cost of using the eircode system, to exceed the return if its only a smaller % of the addresses I get.

    Basically it wouldn't take much for developers not to bother with it. Unless it becomes popular. But that won't happen unless developers use it.


  • #105
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    On a more mundane level, I've had to go to lot of football pitches recently (GAA & Soccer) and trying to get accurate locations, its quite difficult. Clubs might have pitches away from the clubhouse accessed by different roads. Also some use Google maps links, some loc8 codes. But not all devices, accept the same format of GPS co-ordinates. So unless you have an app/device that uses the same format, system I found often it very difficult to find pitches and enter it (usefully) into a GPS or Phone.

    Eircode won't help with this unless its widely adopted, not only by the clubs, but also by the devices people use and also the developers of any apps on those devices. Beta Max, ATRAC spring to mind.


  • #106
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    beauf wrote: »
    On a more mundane level, I've had to go to lot of football pitches recently (GAA & Soccer) and trying to get accurate locations, its quite difficult. Clubs might have pitches away from the clubhouse accessed by different roads. Also some use Google maps links, some loc8 codes. But not all devices, accept the same format of GPS co-ordinates. So unless you have an app/device that uses the same format, system I found often it very difficult to find pitches and enter it (usefully) into a GPS or Phone.

    Eircode won't help with this unless its widely adopted, not only by the clubs, but also by the devices people use and also the developers of any apps on those devices. Beta Max, ATRAC spring to mind.

    A football pitch will never have an Eircode.


  • #107
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    A football pitch will never have an Eircode.

    What about....
    lima wrote: »
    ...... people change their mindset and learn to embrace it in other ways?


  • #108
    lima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    I wonder if there is no adoption they'll have to reduce the price of the data or make it free?

    Or perhaps someone will hack the database and release all the codes!


  • #109
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    What if someone else creates a 3rd party site where people input their Eircode and location so others can look it up.


  • #110
    scrimshanker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭scrimshanker


    beauf wrote: »
    What if someone else creates a 3rd party site where people input their Eircode and location so others can look it up.

    AFAIK, addresses (and presumably the corresponding postcode?) are the property of an post. Copyright issues?


  • #111
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    beauf wrote: »
    There are times when you want to find a general area rather than an exact location.

    Say you were looking for used cars in the general area. All those kind of general searches will have to use the eircode database. Or ignore it completely and just use the description, or an alternative system.
    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    You can still use the first part of the Eircode to get the general area.

    Yeah, in Dublin maybe, but the size of the routing areas outside Dublin means that they're next to useless for that sort of lookup.

    The used cars example is not the best one because as it happens, if I want a used car, putting in X91 into the postcode field is ideal, because it will get me all of east Waterford and south Kilkenny, which is the sort of area I'd be able to get to for a test drive.

    But the point holds up well if you're looking for something like say an Aldi store or an ATM. If I ask the AIB website for all the ATMs in the X91 area, I'll get a long list and it will be up to me to decide whether Ferrybank, Ardkeen, Lisduggan, Dunmore East, Tramore, Portlaw etc. is near me or not. That's fine with my local knowledge, but what if I'm somewhere I don't know, like Galway? I'm staying in a hotel and get their postcode off the stationery, H91, then away I go... but that area covers the city and a load of Connemara and the Aran Islands - useless for locating the services I need!


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  • #112
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The "randomness" (it's actually anything but random) of the codes allows for error detection and correction if a mistake is present in the address or code, or both, on a package for instance. The codes for nearby properties will be very different, therefore they will with a very high degree of accuracy be able to get the package to the right door. You could build error correction into the code itself, but it would be at a much more basic level and at the cost of adding extra digits and making it less memorable.

    Precisely. I live in a duplex and checked the Eircode for next door and downstairs and their last four characters bear no similarity to mine. Fwiw I love my eircode, so easy to remember!


  • #113
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The "randomness" (it's actually anything but random) of the codes allows for error detection and correction if a mistake is present in the address or code, or both, on a package for instance. The codes for nearby properties will be very different, therefore they will with a very high degree of accuracy be able to get the package to the right door. You could build error correction into the code itself, but it would be at a much more basic level and at the cost of adding extra digits and making it less memorable.
    Actually the randomness of the codes doesn't provide automated error detection or checking.
    You can still get the code wrong and have your package go to the wrong property because you've accidentally given their postcode. Chances are it would end up with the wrong postman who'd spot the error before posting it, and would have to bring it back to the depot so it would get correctly delivered the next day.
    It'll go to roughly the right area, but it'll probably be a few km away from your house.

    I'm critical of eircode not because I think it's an inherently awful system. It will work just fine. Mail will get routed better, properties will get located better.

    But the setting up of a postcode system is a purely engineering problem. Instead they allowed the final solution to be dictated by commercial and political interests. In engineering terms, it's a flawed solution, when it didn't need to be.
    Instead of using the opportunity to eliminate logical anomalies like Dublin 6W and having the Phoenix park in Dublin 8, these anomalies are now embedded into the system as "special cases".

    Instead of using an open and decentralised system like Loc8, that could be run by a staff of five people for less than €500k per year, we have a proprietary centralised system that will cost us €1.2m per year.

    Where we could easily have included a checksum digit which would provide automated error-checking, we didn't.

    Like I say, it'll work just fine, but it's riddled with flaws that didn't need to be there and were really easy to avoid.


  • #114
    lima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    Do we have to call people things like 'D04 heads' now?


  • #115
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    seamus wrote: »
    Actually the randomness of the codes doesn't provide automated error detection or checking.
    You can still get the code wrong and have your package go to the wrong property because you've accidentally given their postcode. Chances are it would end up with the wrong postman who'd spot the error before posting it, and would have to bring it back to the depot so it would get correctly delivered the next day.
    It'll go to roughly the right area, but it'll probably be a few km away from your house.

    I'm critical of eircode not because I think it's an inherently awful system. It will work just fine. Mail will get routed better, properties will get located better.

    But the setting up of a postcode system is a purely engineering problem. Instead they allowed the final solution to be dictated by commercial and political interests. In engineering terms, it's a flawed solution, when it didn't need to be.
    Instead of using the opportunity to eliminate logical anomalies like Dublin 6W and having the Phoenix park in Dublin 8, these anomalies are now embedded into the system as "special cases".

    Instead of using an open and decentralised system like Loc8, that could be run by a staff of five people for less than €500k per year, we have a proprietary centralised system that will cost us €1.2m per year.

    Where we could easily have included a checksum digit which would provide automated error-checking, we didn't.

    Like I say, it'll work just fine, but it's riddled with flaws that didn't need to be there and were really easy to avoid.


    Good to have some actually reasonable comments.

    How would you react to the point that, for many applications, the postcodes need to have a one-to-one relationship with properties? Loc8 is many-to-many, so it can't be used in many areas where we need to design fraud out of the system.


  • #116
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    GJG wrote: »
    Good to have some actually reasonable comments.

    How would you react to the point that, for many applications, the postcodes need to have a one-to-one relationship with properties? Loc8 is many-to-many, so it can't be used in many areas where we need to design fraud out of the system.
    And if they were to make Loc8 one-to-one they'd need, guess what, a database! Which people would have to pay for. When you compare them on a like for like basis Loc8 isn't as amazing as people make out.


  • #117
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    GJG wrote: »
    Good to have some actually reasonable comments.

    How would you react to the point that, for many applications, the postcodes need to have a one-to-one relationship with properties? Loc8 is many-to-many, so it can't be used in many areas where we need to design fraud out of the system.
    You see, we don't need to design fraud out of the system. Postcodes have many applications, lots of which are not relevant to fraud. If a guy wants a bale of hay delivered and gives a false postcode, he won't get his bale of hay.

    For financial system, fraud detection is up to them, it's not up to the postcode "authority" to manage it for them.

    The postcode system should just be a simple mapping of locations. Whatever you want to use that mapping for is, up to you.

    I was giving Loc8 as an example, it doesn't necessarily have to be Loc8, or even strictly a GPS-based mapping.

    For mapping multiple properties to one address, you use additional digits. A single extra digit means you can have 25 properties at the one address. Two extra digits, means you can have 625.
    The length doesn't have to be fixed. Where there's only one property at a location, you have no extra digits. Where you want to direct someone to a building but not a specific business or residence in that building, you can use the building's code.
    That's just an example, not necessarily the best solution. Checksums can still work fine with variable length codes.


  • #118
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    beauf wrote: »
    I think most people were hoping for a system that you could look at and know if an address is local and or near another. Without using a computer.

    But a system like that would affect house prices , which is the sole reason they went random


  • #119
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GJG wrote: »
    Good to have some actually reasonable comments.

    How would you react to the point that, for many applications, the postcodes need to have a one-to-one relationship with properties? Loc8 is many-to-many, so it can't be used in many areas where we need to design fraud out of the system.

    Loc8 couldn't be used as a private company own the copyright and An Post, myself , yourself could be landed with a hefty bill for using it. Imagine what would happen if it was adopted into everyday life and then they handed you with a massive bill.


  • #120
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    pwurple wrote: »
    Um, I don't think so.

    They aren't the owners of the address database. How would they make changes to it? They are just sticking a layer of eircodes on top of someone else's address directory.

    Geodirectory own the address list.
    I haven't really been following this whole thing so forgive me if I'm off here but if Geodirectory is owned by An Post and An Post is owned by the state then wtf did we need to pay yet another company to "enhance" the Geodirectory addresses? Surely An Post should have just been told to develop something and then it should have been open sourced (the end product, not necessarily the code base) to be used by anyone and everyone.

    I have never heard of a postcode that requires a subscription to have access to an API to do a database look up. It sounds overly complicated.


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  • #121
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ted1 wrote: »
    But a system like that would affect house prices , which is the sole reason they went random
    They didn't go completely random. I grew up in Newcastle, County Dublin. I just checked there and the mother's house now has a D22 XXXX code. D22 was the nearest postal district, but Newcastle was outside it.

    I bet some people there will be rightly p!ssed off and I suspect a D22 code will indeed affect the house prices there, negatively.

    They should have at the very least abandoned the Dublin postal districts completely, but of course people in the more affluent parts of South Dublin would have gone ballistic, so we got a typical Irish fudge.


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