Cruel reality of life for Gardai

mynamejeff · 11-07-2015 10:10PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So? You lied and said she was "smashed in the face" (she was hit in the head and well enough to finish her shift) and used it as an example of how supposedly vicious water protestors are. I can't help it if the best you have to come back with is some random article about a protestor falling over. Says it all really.
BTW please have some respect of our Gardaí and stop calling them "skanky piggies". It's pretty disgusting of you to think of them like that.

thats some chip your carrying around there dan

let me guess you've had a bad experience AGS? some one upset you ? stopped you for speeding ? told you to go home coz your drunk? took a bag of weed off you ?

best read and understand before you go posting again though

Rothmans · 11-07-2015 10:12PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The average wage is 43000? Really? In what reality?

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/

As I said, income does not equal wage. A person on the dole for example has an income, which would be included in average income calculations. Likewise part time workers would be included in this calculation. That's why the average industrial WAGE is a fair more comparable and proper yardstick to use, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

Muahahaha · 11-07-2015 10:13PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The average wage is 43000? Really? In what reality?

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/

And I keep saying it:
40k is NOT corn flake money. There is NO discussing that fact.

I think the biggest bonus for Gardai is the pension on retirement, it is worth around €1 million to a Garda who retires at 55 and lives to be 78 years of age.

Its well known that the Garda Credit Union was throwing money at Gardai during the boom and also advising them to invest in property. There's lots out there who over-extended themselves, as there are in many other professions too- solicitors, judges, doctors all had members of those professions who got in too deep. But for many while their backs are against the wall and their wages have been cut at least the silver lining is that they still have a job, and a pretty well paid one at that with a mega pension to boot on retirement. There's lots of people in this recession who don't have those luxuries.

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-07-2015 10:26PM

Rothmans wrote: »

As I said, income does not equal wage. A person on the dole for example has an income, which would be included in average income calculations. Likewise part time workers would be included in this calculation. That's why the average industrial WAGE is a fair more comparable and proper yardstick to use, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

I would like to know what industry that is, because I want in on that racket.
Of course it easy enough to come up with a different "average" by excluding and including the "right" groups. The result of any survey is exactly the one that was commissioned.

Dan_Solo · 11-07-2015 10:26PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

thats some chip your carrying around there dan

let me guess you've had a bad experience AGS? some one upset you ? stopped you for speeding ? told you to go home coz your drunk? took a bag of weed off you ?

best read and understand before you go posting again though

"chip on the shoulder" must be somewhere in the Templemore phrasebook too is it? What does it mean anyway besides "I haven't a notion of being able to actually counter your argument so I'll blather on something about a run-in instead and hopefully nobody will laugh at me"?

Rothmans · 11-07-2015 10:35PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would like to know what industry that is, because I want in on that racket.
Of course it easy enough to come up with a different "average" by excluding and including the "right" groups. The result of any survey is exactly the one that was commissioned.

The average industrial wage is a fairly common standard. In fact, it's the most common in comparing salaries. I'm staggered you don't realise what it is, apparently.It only includes the incomes of people who earn a wage, not pensioners or welfare recipients or those who otherwise have an income such as directors and the self employeed. The average WAGE. What's so difficult to understand about it? What you were presenting was average income, what you are giving out about is someone's wage, therein lies the flaw.

EDIT oh btw, the source of the average industrial wage is the exact same source as you quoted - the CSO. Way to undermine your own point

mynamejeff · 11-07-2015 10:57PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"chip on the shoulder" must be somewhere in the Templemore phrasebook too is it? What does it mean anyway besides "I haven't a notion of being able to actually counter your argument so I'll blather on something about a run-in instead and hopefully nobody will laugh at me"?

Its a fairly simple paragraph pal

do you not understand?

if you cant understand there no shame in asking for help !

we are all a big family here dan its good to help the weaker members

Pocoyo · 11-07-2015 11:19PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Its a fairly simple paragraph pal

do you not understand?

if you cant understand there no shame in asking for help !

we are all a big family here dan its good to help the weaker members

You're making a show of yourself.

Dan_Solo · 11-07-2015 11:42PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

Its a fairly simple paragraph pal

do you not understand?

if you cant understand there no shame in asking for help !

we are all a big family here dan its good to help the weaker members

I already told you what it really means. Why would I (or anybody on earth) need you to explain anything?

il gatto · 11-07-2015 11:56PM

Rothmans wrote: »

I've seen some fairly bad Garda-bashing in After Hours before, but yours has been some of the most disparaging and disingenuous. I won't comment any further other than to clarify that recruits do not start on €26,000 + €4,200 rent allowance as you've stated previously, but €23,171, no rent allowance
( http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-rent-allowance-1637335-Aug2014/ ), which is considerably less than the average industrial wage of about €43,000 ( http://www.pbrecruitment.ie/tip.php?id=18&page=1 ). Admittedly this figure is from 2012, but I can't imagine it has gotten worse since the midst of the recession. Now you've mentioned average wage, I'm not sure this is exactly fair as it can include part-time work, which isn't a realistic comparison when comparing it against a full-time career.

Then either get the GRA to release real figures or take it up with the Irish Independent.
And the CSO states the average yearly earnings as I stated. Industrial wage is different.
Facts are dangerous and bashing now?

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 12:03AM

il gatto wrote: »

Then either get the GRA to release real figures or take it up with the Irish Independent.
And the CSO states the average yearly earnings as I stated. Industrial wage is different.
Facts are dangerous and bashing now?

Are you actually serious. You're deliberately not comparing like with like. You are quoting average income figures, not wage figures, which I have already explained aren't comparable. Why are you deliberately giving a figure you know to be unsuitable? The 'real' figures are available on the department of justice website and are available for anyone to see.

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-07-2015 12:07AM

Rothmans wrote: »

As I said, income does not equal wage. A person on the dole for example has an income, which would be included in average income calculations. Likewise part time workers would be included in this calculation. That's why the average industrial WAGE is a fair more comparable and proper yardstick to use, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

I'll get back to you on that one, in the pub right now.
Also, job security, bonus and pension for a public sector worker are worth quite a bit.

il gatto · 12-07-2015 12:09AM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

The Gardai would love everyone to know what's going on. It's management that are restricting that, with social media policies that basically prohibit any members from talking about the job on social media. And i understand why. If someone was to identify themselves as a Garda and made a comment, it's taken as a view of AGS as an organisation, not as an individual person. It's also a security risk. We saw with the water protestors posting pictures of Gardai online and trying to find out who they were and where they live. That's just water protestors. Think about the major criminal gangs who would (and do) target individual Gardai with threats. And yes, the MET probably has a much tougher job, but at least they have the proper equipment, instead of just an ASP, pepper spray and Hyundai cars...

The majority of Guards would be in city stations, where crime and anti social behavior is rife. Add to that that there is less time to follow up on investigations, an increased work load due to retirements, resignations and dismissals, and ever increasing paper work due to new processes to make the higher ups look good. Ask any Garda, the paper is killing the job. The reluctance to accept and implement technology is shocking (still writing interviews ffs!!!). And yes, there are quiet stations, but those stations cover a huge area. Would people prefer if we removed the members from the quiet stations and put them into the busy ones, thus leading country towns and villages wide open to crime.

I'm pretty sure the member in the busy stations would be more than happy to get more money than those in quieter stations. I know the MET get £6000 a year extra for having to work in London...

Look, people are concentrating on the wages. Yes, they're high in comparison to other jobs, but you cannot compare the work of Gardai to any other job in Ireland. And talk all ye want about other countries, but every country is different.

The problem with the money is that the wages were slashed savagely. Most are down €150+ a week. This, after getting used to living on and having that €150. Yes, they probably got stung with mortgages and the recession. yes, they probably spent most of what they earned, but quite a few had savings also. Then you had the majority of new members coming out of Templemore with massive loans, because the Garda CU's were handing them out like candy, with no regard to financial circumstances, relying soley on the fact that once they passed out and started earning a proper wage, only for the Cu's to clamp down and take most of it. They were (mostly) fine pre-recession, but a lot were also relying on overtime, which is all but gone.

And that's not specific to the Gardai. I'd dare say the majority of Irish people who were getting savage wages pre-recession, and they all got houses too big with massive mortgages, massive loans, 3+ holidays a year, fancy cars, etc. People are only targeting the Gardai because they're an easy target with a perceived "job for life" (it's not. It may be harder to get fired from, but it does happen).

Anyway, i'm leaving this now, as Rothmans is saying, this is already gone the way of every Garda bashing thread.

I just questioned what was enough money as it seems pretty decent and the frankly insulting insinuations that nobody knows how tough the job is and how dangerous the job really is comes pouring forth. People respond and it's garda bashing.
Basically guards whinge about money via the media and GRA. Most people think they get enough and are having none of it. Guards whine that their job is too scary and dangerous and tough that people should just accept they don't get paid enough. People are having none of it and suggest another career. Everyone is garda bashing and it's not worth being on the thread. That sum it up?
And I never mentioned water protesters.

Dan_Solo · 12-07-2015 12:18AM

il gatto wrote: »

I just questioned what was enough money as it seems pretty decent and the frankly insulting insinuations that nobody knows how tough the job is and how dangerous the job really is comes pouring forth. People respond and it's garda bashing.
Basically guards whinge about money via the media and GRA. Most people think they get enough and are having none of it. Guards whine that their job is too scary and dangerous and tough that people should just accept they don't get paid enough. People are having none of it and suggest another career. Everyone is garda bashing and it's not worth being on the thread. That sum it up?
And I never mentioned water protesters.

Oh, and don't forget, if you don't buy the GRA whining wholesale you probably "had a run in" with the Gardaí and have a "chip on the shoulder". (Page 40, Line 12, Templemore PR handbook, under "Lame stuff to spout if you can't defend something to do with AGS".)

il gatto · 12-07-2015 12:21AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Are you actually serious. You're deliberately not comparing like with like. You are quoting average income figures, not wage figures, which I have already explained aren't comparable. Why are you deliberately giving a figure you know to be unsuitable? The 'real' figures are available on the department of justice website and are available for anyone to see.

The "real" figures are 23,171 on attestation as I stated. On being assigned to a division it goes to about 25,500 and an automatic allowance of 4,000 (not 4,200. Don't know where you got that) is granted. According to the Irish Independent it costs 56 million a year for 12,000 guards. Do the maths.
Other allowances are also made. Up until a couple of years ago it was fifty odd allowances including boot allowance, cobblers allowance, uniform allowance etc.
If the GRA would publish the truthful figures including all allowances, and the uptake of those allowances, and what is taxed and what is pensionable, people wouldn't have to get their info from the media and people could make up their own mind if we pay our police (and the public sector as a whole) well enough.
Every figure I have stated has come from the GRA, government websites or a national broadsheet and your suggestion that I'm deliberately misleading anyone is insulting.
If you are going to cry in the national media about how much you get paid, at least have the stones to come clean on exactly how much you get paid. To hide the figures and then accuse people of misleading others shows some lack of moral fiber.

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 12:31AM

il gatto wrote: »

The "real" figures are 23,171 on attestation as I stated. On being assigned to a division it goes to about 25,500 and an automatic allowance of 4,000 (not 4,200. Don't know where you got that) is granted. According to the Irish Independent it costs 56 million a year for 12,000 guards. Do the maths.
Other allowances are also made. Up until a couple of years ago it was fifty odd allowances including boot allowance, cobblers allowance, uniform allowance etc.
If the GRA would publish the truthful figures including all allowances, and the uptake of those allowances, and what is taxed and what is pensionable, people wouldn't have to get their info from the media and people could make up their own mind if we pay our police (and the public sector as a whole) well enough.
Every figure I have stated has come from the GRA, government websites or a national broadsheet and your suggestion that I'm deliberately misleading anyone is insulting.
If you are going to cry in the national media about how much you get paid, at least have the stones to come clean on exactly how much you get paid. To hide the figures and then accuse people of misleading others shows some lack of moral fiber.

I'm leaving this thread now as I only posted to clarify that you were misleading people about what the average national WAGE was, and provide the links to back it up. You refused to concede this. Also to clarify that the rent allowance was abolished in 2012 to new entrants into the public service. I provided a link which showed this, but you refused to accept it. The independent and times repoted on it too if you want more proof. Likewise a list of all allowances are available on the department of justice website, and are available to see, nobody stopping you.

il gatto · 12-07-2015 01:08AM

Rothmans wrote: »

I'm leaving this thread now as I only posted to clarify that you were misleading people about what the average national WAGE was, and provide the links to back it up. You refused to concede this. Also to clarify that the rent allowance was abolished in 2012 to new entrants into the public service. I provided a link which showed this, but you refused to accept it. The independent and times repoted on it too if you want more proof. Likewise a list of all allowances are available on the department of justice website, and are available to see, nobody stopping you.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

Average industrial wage is deemed misleadingly high due to people on massive incomes distorting the figure. That's why average annual earnings is the method the CSO uses now.
I'm aware the new recruits don't get the €4,000 rent allowance automatically, but that leaves the other 11,500 in receipt of it. Tax free, pensionable and for nowt.
The new recruits don't have to apply if they are unhappy with that arrangement. That only applies since the batch entering Templemore last Sept. That's 2014, not 2012.
I believe almost 30,000 applied for just 600 places last time around so obviously it's still attractive enough.

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 01:19AM

il gatto wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

Average industrial wage is deemed misleadingly high due to people on massive incomes distorting figure. That's why average annual earnings is the method the CSO uses now.
I'm aware the new recruits don't get the €4,000 rent allowance automatically, but that leaves the other 11,500 in receipt of it. Tax free, pensionable and for nowt.
The new recruits don't have to apply if they are unhappy with that arrangement. That only applies since the batch entering Templemore last Sept. That's 2014, not 2012.
I believe almost 30,000 applied for just 600 places last time around so obviously it's still attractive enough.

Regarding the rent allowance, you were stating differently earlier. Had I not 'clarified' the situation, people would still believe all gardai were entitled to rent allowance. Regarding the average industrial wage. So what if it includes people that earn a lot, that's what it's meant to do, that's why it's an average figure. Likewise the average income will include all these high earners, but it will also include a substantial number of people who don't actually earn a wage.

Stheno · 12-07-2015 01:24AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Regarding the rent allowance, you were stating differently earlier. Had I not 'clarified' the situation, people would still believe all gardai were entitled to rent allowance. Regarding the average industrial wage. So what if it includes people that earn a lot, that's what it's meant to do, that's why it's an average figure. Likewise the average income will include all these high earners, but it will also include a substantial number of people who don't actually earn a wage.

Did you read the article and how it differentiates between average and median wage to give more balance?

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 01:32AM

Stheno wrote: »

Did you read the article and how it differentiates between average and median wage to give more balance?

Yup, it mentions the median wage for fulltime employment is estimated to be €32000. However, this is the first time the term median has been used tonight. Up until now it was average, which isn't the same thing. Also the article mentions that although it excludes massive high earning outliers, it also excludes traditionally lucrative professions from the estimate such as doctors, lawyers, accountabts etc so not exactly perfect either.

Stheno · 12-07-2015 01:36AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Yup, it mentions the median wage for fulltime employment is estimated to be €32000. However, this is the first time the term median has been used tonight. Up until now it was average, which isn't the same thing. Also the article mentions that although it excludes massive high earning outliers, it also excludes traditionally lucrative professions from the estimate such as doctors, lawyers, accountabts etc so not exactly perfect either.

It wouldn't also include the likes of self employed directors who are IT contractors like myself, but on a PAYE basis it's accurate

Compared to the median for PAYE workers, even starting out the pay for Guards is ok, and very good compared to the median

If it included the excluded professions, it would be massively inflated and people would be up in arms. In that sense for the regular person it's a good comparator

il gatto · 12-07-2015 01:39AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Regarding the rent allowance, you were stating differently earlier. Had I not 'clarified' the situation, people would still believe all gardai were entitled to rent allowance. Regarding the average industrial wage. So what if it includes people that earn a lot, that's what it's meant to do, that's why it's an average figure. Likewise the average income will include all these high earners, but it will also include a substantial number of people who don't actually earn a wage.

The vast majority are entitled to it. Only the lastest recruits are not. You "clarified" it by stating that guards were not entitled to it which is wrong. All members before last autumn received and still receive it and unless drastic changes are made down the line, will continue to receive it.
The new recruits know what they signed up for and still applied. And they're not the ones in the media crying poverty.
And I suggest you read the article I linked to again. It clearly states how the figure is arrived at. You can check with the CSO and see that there's no mention of including those on benefits.

Dan_Solo · 12-07-2015 01:39AM

Rothmans wrote: »

Yup, it mentions the median wage for fulltime employment is estimated to be €32000. However, this is the first time the term median has been used tonight. Up until now it was average, which isn't the same thing.

Yes? That isn't really a great counter to the fact that it's €11,000 less than the figure you were quoting to try to make out AGS were poorly paid.
Don't fancy addressing it now I guess...

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 01:42AM

Stheno wrote: »

It wouldn't also include the likes of self employed directors who are IT contractors like myself, but on a PAYE basis it's accurate

Compared to the median for PAYE workers, even starting out the pay for Guards is ok, and very good compared to the median

If it included the excluded professions, it would be massively inflated and people would be up in arms. In that sense for the regular person it's a good comparator

And if you look at my post I never commented on whether I thought it was good bad or whatever else. I just came on to clarify one or two inaccuracies I noticed being posted, and to that end I've done what I wanted to do. I had or have no interest in getting involved in the topic of debate itself. Anyhow I hear the bed calling me. Not exactly how I expected to spend my Saturday night, but not the worst way to spend one either :P

Stheno · 12-07-2015 01:44AM

Rothmans wrote: »

And if you look at my post I never commented on whether I thought it was good bad or whatever else. I just came on to clarify one or two inaccuracies I noticed being posted, and to that end I've done what I wanted to do. I had or have no interest in getting involved in the topic of debate itself. Anyhow I hear the bed calling me. Not exactly how I expected to spend my Saturday night, but not the worst way to spend one either :P

Sleep well

il gatto · 12-07-2015 01:47AM

Rothmans wrote: »

And if you look at my post I never commented on whether I thought it was good bad or whatever else. I just came on to clarify one or two inaccuracies I noticed being posted, and to that end I've done what I wanted to do. I had or have no interest in getting involved in the topic of debate itself. Anyhow I hear the bed calling me. Not exactly how I expected to spend my Saturday night, but not the worst way to spend one either :P

I assure you I have no intention of misleading anyone and have no axe to grind. Just think people should be aware of figures when the media prints the stories without them. Let people make up their own mind.
Sleep well

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 01:47AM

il gatto wrote: »

The vast majority are entitled to it. Only the lastest recruits are not. You "clarified" it by stating that guards were not entitled to it which is wrong. All members before last autumn received and still receive it and unless drastic changes are made down the line, will continue to receive it.
The new recruits know what they signed up for and still applied. And they're not the ones in the media crying poverty.
And I suggest you read the article I linked to again. It clearly states how the figure is arrived at. You can check with the CSO and see that there's no mention of including those on benefits.

No I stated new recruits weren't entitled to it. I even provided a link to it if you go back to my original post. Yes benefits aren't included in median wage, but this is not the case for average income. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth.

Stheno · 12-07-2015 01:48AM

Rothmans wrote: »

No I stated new recruits weren't entitled to it. I even provided a link to it if you go back to my original post. Yes benefits aren't included in median wage, but this is not the case for average income. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth.

GO to bed. The amount of backtracking you've done will give you nightmares.

mynamejeff · 12-07-2015 01:50AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I already told you what it really means. Why would I (or anybody on earth) need you to explain anything?

so you don't have any reason to be consistently anti policing in your comments here then , no reason at all ?

your words ?

Not a shred of respect for 99% of them.
"To self-serve and self-protect" should be the Garda motto. It's true that most people seem to think they're OK... until they have some dealings with them. Then you'll find the real story.

Here's a good one. Got 2 grand in the bank? Want to deck a cop?
http://www.galwaynews.ie/15304-oranm...-assault-trial

Just because attacking peaceful protesters is all Gardai are capable of doesn't mean they are thugs *because* they are thick. It means if they tried anything more complicated their brains would break.

Why would I be required to provide evidence contrary to my point? Does that debatng tactic ever work out for you?

Isnt there a debating club in nuig to where you can learn this stuff ?

Rothmans · 12-07-2015 01:50AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes? That isn't really a great counter to the fact that it's €11,000 less than the figure you were quoting to try to make out AGS were poorly paid.
Don't fancy addressing it now I guess...

Nope. The average industrial wage is still the same as I posted earlier. Median has a different meaning to average and I never stated otherwise

Cruel reality of life for Gardai

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