Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

Summer wind · 09-07-2015 01:06AM

There's girls there's women and there's ladies
There's yes'es there's no's and there's maybes:)

These gob****es are lucky if this is all they've got to trouble them.

ProfessorPlum · 09-07-2015 01:19AM

When you're being wheeled down the corridor for your triple bypass surgery, and you pass your anaesthetist and cardiac surgeon, both female, and you feel it appropriate to exclaim "let's go girls" and feel that's OK, then you need to ask yourself where that line is. Like others have said, it's all about context. 2 grown women, senior politicians, with serious administrative roles, should never be referred to as 'girls', except maybe by their mothers and close friends. Shocking really that people in this day age don't appreciate that.

NachoBusiness · 09-07-2015 01:38AM

I love the way the journo of the article quotes Nicky Morgan (the UK's Equality Minster) as being "unimpressed" when paps said: "Morning Girls" to her but yet didn't also point out that she said: "Thank you" to them with a smile as she was walked off. So far from being unimpressed, one could easily argue that she was in fact, quite impressed.

Here's the clip the article was based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNNQcCPCMVY

One eyed Jack · 09-07-2015 01:40AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I really don't have much of a problem with it myself in general life but I can see how it could be offensive in a professional settting. I have a relation in quite a high powered job who refers to his female colleagues as "the girls". It's always "the girls had a great laugh at that", "ah the girls get awful upset now when there's a performance review so I never call it that when I'm talking to them" etc. It does seem condescending but to my shame from his comments I had always pictured him in a Mad Men-esque sort of office full of giddy young secretaries that he's carefully managing and trying not to upset. It wasn't a conscious notion, just what was conjured from the tales. Instead at a party there all the family were a bit shocked to find these "girls" were women in their 40s in high ranking positions,capable, sophisticated,very professional. Someone else actually mentioned "are these the "girls"???" to me with a laugh.

I think if you call women girls it's easier to tar them with these notions of needing to tread of eggshells and break things gently to them and in so doing easier to consider them weaker and less capable, sure you have to take care of the girls! In a professional capacity I would probably take umbrage at being referred to as "one of the girls".

Y'know, I've spent nearly my whole working life in mostly female environments (not by design, purely by circumstance) and I've worked with women both older and younger than me, and I never thought too much about whether I referred to them as ladies, girls, women, and then as I read your post I was thinking "Jesus yer man is a bit sad really", until I realised -

I could well be him

Relax Whimsical, I doubt we're related, but that last paragraph, definitely I would never think of any woman like that, and no woman has ever mentioned it to me either. I've also been known to call women by other, ahem, shall we say 'terms of endearment', but it's never been intended in a patronising eggshells or thinking women were less capable or any of the rest of it, quite the opposite in fact - admiration (but not in a putting women up on pedestals adulation kind of way)...

Jesus I'm getting awful paranoid with all this sexism stuff lately :pac:

Samaris · 09-07-2015 01:50AM

Good gods, I underestimated AH. I expected this thread to..well, I didn't expect it to be so...well...civilised.

As regards the article, yeah, it was inappropriate and fair play to them for smacking the cheeky photographer.

I don't mind "girls" in a social context. I'd be more likely to say "I'm going out to meet the girls" than "I'm going out to meet the women", same way as I'd say "I'm going out to meet the lads" rather than "men". Professionally though, one would really have to know your people well to know how to address them. The photographer certainly didn't know them well and had no right to ...basically catcall them. Those are mature women and deserve to be treated with more respect. Same as saying "alright there, lads!" to the Prime Minister would be inappropriate too.

Pat Mustard · 09-07-2015 02:03AM

Calling women “girls” is especially undermining and patronising in the workplace. People might say this is oversensitive (I am a woman after all), but in a world in which substantial pay inequality and glass ceilings still exist, language matters.

There’s a simple rule to test whether something is sexist: would the situation be the same if applied to a man and not a woman?

I cannot imagine a group of male senior executives referred to as “boys”, but it’s easy to conjure up “girls” in the reverse scenario.

England’s women’s football team – World Cup bronze medal winners no less – were frequently referred to as “girls” by pundits and commentators.

One might argue that male footballers are referred to as “lads” or “the boys”, which is true. But these terms are not so loaded.

Another bullsh1t article by the Guardian.

darkpagandeath · 09-07-2015 02:19AM

I get called "here mister" all the time. Never been called “here boy”

Samaris · 09-07-2015 02:22AM

I agree with some points you make there, Pat, and disagree with others.

I -can- imagine a group of male adults being called "boys", even in a professional context.

However, it's -not- got the same connotations. And the terms aren't quite so loaded. Thing is, someday we will probably be able to use these terms without any issues of background context, and no fear of misinterpretation. Someday, we will not need to be cautious of our words as regards a group of people, because there will be no underlying issues to be concerned about.

In short, just like in any other area of life, one should choose their words by what the other party is comfortable with, not just what oneself is comfortable with. You can make any comments you like in your own mind, but when speaking to and about another, it is mannerly to refer to them as they wish to be referred to. If a pair of mature, professional women do not wish to be referred to as "girls", then that's their prerogative, and to refer to them elseways is rude.

09-07-2015 02:26AM

Ha, I didn't actually see the clip until it was posted above, that's actually hilarious how surprised she seemed to be called girls. I think both parties were having a laugh and my already low respect for the article has been downgraded even further.

darkpagandeath · 09-07-2015 02:27AM

It's odd though the use of "Girls night out" same with men "Boys night out" where does line get drawn.

Samaris · 09-07-2015 02:39AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's odd though the use of "Girls night out" same with men "Boys night out" where does line get drawn.

It's drawn by connotation. I think both terms are more than just the gender of those going out, it's more to do with the purpose of it. If you're going on the pull with a group (of the same gender!) it's the "x" night out. Same if you're going out to do stereotypically male/female things. By the way, there's nothing -wrong- with doing those things. Just not all nights out with all females/males are about the stereotypes.

Sheesh. I reckon an awful lot of modern Western issues would be solved if we could just reckon that everyone is a person first, gender second. It's so damned childish that we talk so much about "women" and "men" like we're different species.

darkpagandeath · 09-07-2015 02:43AM

Samaris wrote: »

It's drawn by connotation. I think both terms are more than just the gender of those going out, it's more to do with the purpose of it. If you're going on the pull with a group (of the same gender!) it's the "x" night out. Same if you're going out to do stereotypically male/female things. By the way, there's nothing -wrong- with doing those things. Just not all nights out with all females/males are about the stereotypes.

Sheesh. I reckon an awful lot of modern Western issues would be solved if we could just reckon that everyone is a person first, gender second. It's so damned childish that we talk so much about "women" and "men" like we're different species.

Or not put connotations into the English language that are not there ? Call me Boy all you like no bother to me. I think people these days are looking to be offended for x y z reason.

NachoBusiness · 09-07-2015 02:58AM

I'm offended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1h1PrjUImE

BlackEdelweiss · 09-07-2015 03:04AM

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

darkpagandeath · 09-07-2015 03:06AM

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

My other half is in her mid 30s takes it as a badge of honour she got refused buying beer for me from the local offie.

One eyed Jack · 09-07-2015 07:50AM

Maybe these women just weren't members of the old boys network?

strelok · 09-07-2015 07:52AM

i think a more interesting question is trying to think of something feminists wouldn't get irrationally offended by

i'm going to go with cheese.

feminists love lactose.

Servebot · 09-07-2015 08:08AM

I usually refer to post adolescent females as women.

Day Lewin · 09-07-2015 08:10AM

Ah, here, lads....

I rest my case.

kylith · 09-07-2015 08:17AM

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

My wife who is in her mid 30's still goes on girls night out, since we moved away she often says she misses all the girls, she goes for drinks with the girls from work plus lots of other instances involving the word girls while referring to middle aged women most of whom are older than her. And all her friends and workmates say the same things. Such a load of ****e!

The difference is that one is self-identifying in a social context, and the other is being identified as a 'girl', with the immature connotations, in a professional setting.

_Kaiser_ · 09-07-2015 08:17AM

Once again, as with all these "ism's" and "-ist's" the key is context and intent.. some people should be finding more to be doing with themselves than looking to be offended everywhere.

Cold War Kid · 09-07-2015 08:21AM

No different to calling men lads or fellas or guys. Will this gender war shyte ever sod off.

Whosthis · 09-07-2015 08:22AM

I guess its all about context, I can understand some women being insulted being referred to as girls by men, much like men feel when we are referred to as men by feminists.

One eyed Jack · 09-07-2015 08:26AM

kylith wrote: »

The difference is that one is self-identifying in a social context, and the other is being identified as a 'girl', with the immature connotations, in a professional setting.

Photojournalists looking for a photo opportunity with politicians though are anything but a professional setting among work colleagues. I wouldn't be surprised that they refer to anyone in an informal capacity in fairness. Other politicians referring to these women as girls might raise an eyebrow or two alright, because that would be a professional setting, but paps on the street looking for a photo opportunity? That should hardly be considered a professional setting,

zeffabelli · 09-07-2015 08:31AM

Why is the world suddenly gender obsessed?

We are more than our genders.

Give it a rest Guardian, aka moral police.

Menas · 09-07-2015 08:37AM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Why is the world suddenly gender obsessed?

We are more than our genders.

Give it a rest Guardian, aka moral police.

It seems like we are been told what to be offended about every other day.

Tis the silly season for the media and there are lots of people out there just dying to get outraged about some nonsense or other.

Special Circumstances · 09-07-2015 08:41AM

Who run the world? Girls.
Sung by a black female (by birth and life choice, not that it matters except where offence is to be found of course of course) artist, and therefore unpossible to be insert-term-here-ist.

Girls would wanna man up like.

kylith · 09-07-2015 08:42AM

Menas wrote: »

It seems like we are been told what to be offended about every other day.

Tis the silly season for the media and there are lots of people out there just dying to get outraged about some nonsense or other.

Or we now live in a society where one can say 'actually, I find that offensive' and be able to have it taken seriously.

Special Circumstances · 09-07-2015 08:51AM

kylith wrote: »

Or we now live in a society where one can say 'actually, I find that offensive' and be able to have it taken seriously.

I find that offensive

_Kaiser_ · 09-07-2015 08:54AM

kylith wrote: »

Or we now live in a society where one can say 'actually, I find that offensive' and be able to have it taken seriously.

Or maybe people need to accept that not everyone has the same view or opinion on things as they do and that there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't automatically mean the object of their outrage is being sexist/racist/xenophobic/homophobic/<insert whatever similar term here> - as I said above, context and intent are key.

Remember the old days? When people had cop on, got on with their own lives, and weren't afraid to call it as they saw it, rather than looking for offense everywhere or being labelled as <insert ist/ism here> for it? I miss that!

Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

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