Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

Akrasia · 08-07-2015 12:02PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Syriza's coalition partners in the Greek government, ANEL, are right wing nationalists.

Syriza could have chosen to form a coalition with To Potami, a moderate Greek party that's pro-European.

Instead they chose to form a government with their fellow nationalists.

Fact, not sh1t-stirring.

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

Bob24 · 08-07-2015 12:06PM

Akrasia wrote: »

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

Except people are not saying that ... they are saying Syriza is allied to right wing nationalist. Which is a fact as marmurr1916 explained.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:08PM

All this uncertainty isn't doing the Greek tourism industry any favours:

Holger Zschaepitz ‏@Schuldensuehner 8 mins8 minutes ago

#Greece Travel Bookings From Germany Collapsed 39%, Amadeus Says. http://bloom.bg/1NRUnLX

BoJack Horseman · 08-07-2015 12:09PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Greece does need investment to spur growth. This is absolutely clear.
However it also does not need bad investment, which is what a stimulus package without reform might turn any investment into.

The idea is (in a normal world)....
Invest money
Create businesses
Stimulate demand
Grow business, grow jobs
Return profit & payroll taxes to gov....
And repeat..

But if Greece allows the status quo of a vast under declaration of income by their massive (30%) self employed sector, with a civil service too bent to care..... Then your & mine money is just being pissed away.

Utterly unacceptable.

Mindsets change free of charge & don't require bribery via our taxes.
That comes first.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:10PM

Akrasia wrote: »

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

They were not forced to form a coalition with ANEL. To Potami have enough MPs in the Greek parliament to allow for a successful coalition with Syriza, if Syriza had chosen to form a coalition with To Potami.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists, not much different to right-wing populist nationalists at heart.

Worth repeating: Syriza chose to form a government with a right wing populist nationalist party. At least one of these groups of right wing nationalists are allies of Syriza, by Syriza's choosing.

The Greek parliament has 300 seats. Syriza have 149 seats, leaving them two seats short of a majority. To Potami have 17 seats, compared with ANEL's 13 seats. A coalition with To Potami would have a larger majority in the Greek parliament than the current coalition between Syriza and ANEL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:25PM

This article perhaps explains why the rest of the EZ/EU is anxious for the Greek problem to be dealt with asap, one way or the other:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/11725236/The-really-worrying-financial-crisis-is-happening-in-China-not-Greece.html

Akrasia · 08-07-2015 12:32PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Except people are not saying that ... they are saying Syriza is allied to right wing nationalist. Which is a fact as marmurr1916 explained.

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

marmurr1916 wrote: »

A supposed left-winger whose chief supporters in the EP so far have been Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen?

As I've said elsewhere, Syriza is not a left-wing party - it's a party of xenophobic nationalists.

And that's why the likes of Farage and Le Pen are fans.

BoJack Horseman · 08-07-2015 12:34PM

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

Communists can be ultra nationalist too.

Nationalism isn't a monopoly for either extreme.

08-07-2015 12:34PM

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

That's not what they've said, nor does the quote you've posted suggest that at all

Permabear · 08-07-2015 12:35PM

This post has been deleted.

Hoagy · 08-07-2015 12:38PM

Slightly off topic, but isn't this a really uninspiring meeting room for such important business?

swampgas · 08-07-2015 12:39PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

This article perhaps explains why the rest of the EZ/EU is anxious for the Greek problem to be dealt with asap, one way or the other:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/11725236/The-really-worrying-financial-crisis-is-happening-in-China-not-Greece.html

Yep, there are a lot of other issues that the EU leaders would rather be focusing on right now.

Greece has managed to chew up big chunks of time and energy of large numbers of senior politicians in the EU. Senior people don't have a lot of free time in their schedules, there will have been a lot of knock-on disruption in terms of scheduled meetings. The way Tsipras has dragged everybody to the negotiating table only to have nothing new to show, or to flounce off without warning, must be wearing very thin.

I can see how the EU leaders might be tempted to go for Grexit just so they could get back to work!

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:40PM

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

Are you a mind reader now? Syriza, as I've said above, are left-wing populist nationalists - with a current emphasis on populist nationalism. Is it any wonder that they've formed a coalition with another populist nationalist party and that they attract support from other populist nationalists? Have a look at the figures for seats in the current Greek parliament - a coalition with To Potami (a pro-European, pre-euro centre-left party) would have given the current Greek government an extra four MPs to rely on compared to the coalition with ANEL.

To Potami offered to enter a coalition with Syriza during the Greek general election campaign in January:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_River_%28Greece%29

In his public rhetoric, Tsipras keeps emphasising how pro-European he is and how he's determined to keep Greece in the euro (a huge change from Syriza's previous policy of ditching the euro). Unless he's dissembling, To Potami would have been a better fit for Syriza as a coalition partner than ANEL.

However, Syriza's choice of ANEL as coalition partners proves that they're populist nationalists, which is why they've got on so well with ANEL over the past five months.

08-07-2015 12:42PM

ESM application

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:43PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Bingo! That's precisely my point. Let's not forget that for years Syriza opposed Greek membership of the euro until they realised that this was a vote loser. I don't think their apparent commitment to the EZ is anything more than a tactic which they'll happily abandon at the first excuse.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 12:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

ESM application

"Greece is committed to honor its financial obligations to all of its creditors in a full and timely manner" - apart from that minor €1.6 billion default last week!

BoJack Horseman · 08-07-2015 12:47PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ESM application

The chap forgot to state the amount of extra money he's looking for.

Akrasia · 08-07-2015 12:48PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

They were not forced to form a coalition with ANEL. To Potami have enough MPs in the Greek parliament to allow for a successful coalition with Syriza, if Syriza had chosen to form a coalition with To Potami.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists, not much different to right-wing populist nationalists at heart.

Worth repeating: Syriza chose to form a government with a right wing populist nationalist party. At least one of these groups of right wing nationalists are allies of Syriza, by Syriza's choosing.

The Greek parliament has 300 seats. Syriza have 149 seats, leaving them two seats short of a majority. To Potami have 17 seats, compared with ANEL's 13 seats. A coalition with To Potami would have a larger majority in the Greek parliament than the current coalition between Syriza and ANEL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

ANEL are in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories and Fianna Fail. Does this make David Cameron a right wing extremist nationalist politician? Because he 'chose' to be in a European Parliamentary group with these kinds of parties?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists#Eighth_European_Parliament

Syriza was elected with the mandate of ending the austerity program. Potami would have gotten in the way of fulfilling what they believe to have been their primary mandate, so they were forced into a choice. They could have entered a party that would have betrayed the mandate that they feel they had, or they could have entered into a coalition with ANEL and have a much greater chance of achieving their primary aim.

That's politics. This is a time of crisis for the Greeks. It is very unfair to use this coalition as some kind of evidence that Syriza's true colours are aligned with the radical right instead of the radical left.

08-07-2015 12:48PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

"Greece is committed to honor its financial obligations to all of its creditors in a full and timely manner" - apart from that minor €1.6 billion default last week!

I actually think that that might be a bit of humour. Didn't Dijsselbloem reference that exact sentence which was in their statement in February?

Eugene Norman · 08-07-2015 12:49PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Of course.

Reform is another way of saying: 'passing bills'.
It only requires will.

It isn't hard, it just takes a mindset that embraces wealth creation,rather than one seeking to destroy it.

- No 37% corporation tax
- no increased employment taxes.
- maintain reduced VAT on hospitality sector.

All growth friendly, all will stimulate.

However to do this, they need the political will to actually bother collecting existing taxes.... (€5bn outstanding YTD).
Greece has plenty of wriggle room if it bothered to do its job.

Wasn't the increased vat a condition of the last rejected agreement? Are any of those free market reforms in the program from Europe?

Edit yes it was. The creditors demanded increases in VAT on hotels. The rest of your demands are anti- austerity too.

Bob24 · 08-07-2015 12:51PM

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

No offence but when you start claiming you know what other posters mean better than they know themselves, it is usually a sign that your ideology is taking over your rational thinking.

In the quote you listed he is absolutely not calling them right wing nationalists. He is calling them xenophobic nationalists which is different and is not incompatible with being a hard core socialist. I wouldn't agree with calling them xenophobic (though definitely agreed with calling them nationalists) but I don't see why Marmurr1916 couldn't be of that opinion without necessarily implying they are a right wing nationalists. Whether he thinks they are is for him to say, not you and me.

Eugene Norman · 08-07-2015 12:54PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Bingo! That's precisely my point. Let's not forget that for years Syriza opposed Greek membership of the euro until they realised that this was a vote loser. I don't think their apparent commitment to the EZ is anything more than a tactic which they'll happily abandon at the first excuse.

Significant parts of the Labour Party in Britain were anti-EEC. I'm not sure what that gets you exactly.

Permabear · 08-07-2015 12:54PM

This post has been deleted.

Eugene Norman · 08-07-2015 12:58PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We won't know what they can meet or not until they flesh it out. Thursday.

Quin_Dub · 08-07-2015 01:04PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Every single thing that they have said in relation to the negotiations thus far has proven to be at best naively optimistic or at worst outright lies..

I sat reading the output from yesterdays machinations in Brussels and struggled to try to decide if Syriza were simply criminally incompetent or whether they were consciously acting out a series of pre-planned moves to achieve some kind of ultimate goal (not quite sure what it might be)..

I still haven't been able to decide..although I am heavily leaning toward the incompetent theory at present.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 01:05PM

Akrasia wrote: »

ANEL are in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories and Fianna Fail. Does this make David Cameron a right wing extremist nationalist politician? Because he 'chose' to be in a European Parliamentary group with these kinds of parties?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists#Eighth_European_Parliament

So what? ANEL are a right-wing populist nationalist party. I never stated they were extremist. As for the Tories, many Tory MEPs (and MPs) are right wing nationalists who want the UK to withdraw from the EU - Daniel Hannan MEP is probably the most well known of the Tory MEPs who want the UK out.

FF are not members of this EP group, although the right wing nationalist Flemish National Party and True Finns are. Brian Crowley lost the FF whip when he chose to join this EP grouping:

Ireland's main opposition party in the Dáil has withdrawn the whip from its only MEP after he allied himself with a Eurosceptic rightwing group in the European parliament.

Fianna Fáil said it had removed support for Brian Crowley because he had joined a "crowd of headbangers" in Brussels.

The MEP has allied himself to the European Conservatives and Reformist group, which includes parties that honour former members of the SS in Belgium.

Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil's leader, said Crowley had effectively removed himself from the party for unilaterally joining the rightwing bloc. Martin said he told Crowley the move was "totally unacceptable".

The group includes the Belgian Flemish National party, some of whose members attend commemorations for SS fighters recruited in Belgium during the Nazi occupation. It also incorporates the True Finns party, which has espoused anti-immigrant and radically rightwing policies.

Describing the group as "a crowd of headbangers", Fianna Fáil's chief whip supported the party leader's move against Crowley.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl said he was "reeling and bewildered" over Crowley's move. "Brian, unfortunately, had no discussion with the parliamentary party and there were no discussions about this particular unilateral action by him at national executive level either," Ó Fearghaíl said.

Fianna Fáil, once the most powerful force in Irish politics, was aligned to the Liberal ALDE alliance in the European parliament.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/24/fianna-fail-mep-brian-crowley-whip-withdrawn

Akrasia wrote: »

Syriza was elected with the mandate of ending the austerity program. Potami would have gotten in the way of fulfilling what they believe to have been their primary mandate, so they were forced into a choice. They could have entered a party that would have betrayed the mandate that they feel they had, or they could have entered into a coalition with ANEL and have a much greater chance of achieving their primary aim.

That's been working out well so far, hasn't it?

To Potami would have been a much better coalition partner for Syriza if Syriza were actually genuinely committed to getting a better deal rather than creating a situation where they have an excuse to withdraw Greece from the euro.

Akrasia wrote: »

That's politics. This is a time of crisis for the Greeks. It is very unfair to use this coalition as some kind of evidence that Syriza's true colours are aligned with the radical right instead of the radical left.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists. ANEL are right-wing populist nationalists. At present, they're both putting a lot more emphasis on populist nationalism than any kind of left or right policies.

Can you provide some information about a genuinely radical left policy that Syriza/ANEL have implemented (as opposed to talked about implementing) since taking office five months ago?

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 01:06PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Significant parts of the Labour Party in Britain were anti-EEC. I'm not sure what that gets you exactly.

That radicals and populists of either wing have a lot more in common than they'd like to admit.

BoJack Horseman · 08-07-2015 01:06PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

They are anti-austerity. Maybe you should change sides.

Im all for countries paying their way.
Hence my repeated statements for proper collection of existing taxes (especially the €5bn outstanding this year alone) & targeted reductions to stimulate and to bring in more tax.

Reduce key rates, enforce collection, deficit goes away, jobs are created.... This is easy for everyone bar Syriza seemingly.

Try reading more than every second line.

Akrasia · 08-07-2015 01:06PM

Bob24 wrote: »

No offence but when you start claiming you know what other posters mean better than they know themselves, it is usually a sign that your ideology is taking over your rational thinking.

In the quote you listed he is absolutely not calling them right wing nationalists. He is calling them xenophobic nationalists which is different and is not incompatible with being a hard core socialist. I wouldn't agree with calling them xenophobic (though definitely agreed with call them nationalists) but I don't see why Marmurr1916 couldn't be of that opinion without necessarily implayign they are a far right party.

When someone says 'supposedly left wing' this implies that they mean that they are not actually left wing at all.
If this is a misinterpretation then I apologise

It's a bit of a stretch to say that a party comprised of about a dozen communist and anti capitalist groups are not 'left wing'

It's also rather unfair to declare every political belief that is opposed to austerity or opposed to the types of capitalism that exist in greece as 'populist'

Syriza are a radical left party. They got elected in the last election because their position is popular amongst the Greek population who are worn out with un-ending austerity. 6 years of Troika bail-outs led to the election of Syriza.

After the 6 years of austerity the Greek economy collapsed by 30% and there was a glimmer of hope following a bumper tourist season when there was 1.7% growth (from a very low year on year base). The 'recovery program' even with the limited 'growth' forecast before Syriza took power still called for maintained austerity, further tax increases, further spending cuts, further pain and suffering for the Greek population. And yet it is the fault of the 'radical left' that 'populous' politics took power?

Populism is the idea that the people should have a say in how their countries are governed. The previous 6 years was elitism, the troika was running the country for the banks, and the people don't want that anymore. The elites had their chance, and they failed.

Eugene Norman · 08-07-2015 01:10PM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

That radicals and populists of either wing have a lot more in common than they'd like to admit.

That wasn't my point. The term nationalist is now a bad word, and with some modern exceptions like the SNP that's justified. However a nationalist opposed to a super national organisation like the EU, or EEC or Warsaw Pact is not really the same as the EDL. It's a legitimate ideology to believe sovereignty should be restricted to sovereign states rather that super national organisations.

Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

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