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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread
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Just been reading about how much a few people struggled in races and LSR's the last few days. Would like to make a quick point just so the novices know they're not alone.
Yesterday I paced the 1:45 group in Clontarf. I've run 1:20 & 1:21 in my most recent HM's, so wasn't expecting yesterday to be difficult at all as the pace is close to two full minutes per mile slower than I know I'm capable of. However it wasn't as easy as it should have been. I was baking with sweat on the way out from the heat and the wind on the way back was a real killer. We had banked a little bit of time, so were actually going slower than 8min/mile at that stage, but it almost felt like race effort for me. For someone whose race effort is normally 8min/mile, I'd imagine it was unsustainable yesterday. Hence I wouldn't get too worried. As I said in the race thread, I doubt there's anyone who raced yesterday (good or bad result) who's not capable of faster in more favourable conditions.
Dehydration is another thing that shouldn't be underestimated. I ran 13 miles in the sun a couple of years ago, full sure I couldn't have gone another yard afterwards if I wanted to. I only realised how thirsty I actually was that day when I got home afterwards and started guzzling water for fun. I think the same thing happened a lot of people in the DCM last year. This is probably why so many on here are struggling lately as opposed to fitness or any other factor. It shouldn't be anything like this in October (although we all thought that last year
)
Keep up the good work.0 -
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I'm not entirely sure of the distance or times on today's LSR, my Garmin says 16.3km but Strava and Runkeeper would both have measured it at 17. My pace was steady enough, although it was around the upper limit of my planned pace for a good few km's. Garmin has it all over the place but I think its all down to tree cover. I was in Deerpark forest Virginia and the canopy completely covers the path most of the way around.
I felt good but the legs were getting a little tired at the end. That was only my 2nd time crossing 10 mile so that was to be expected. No problems other than that though and things are progressing nicely.
But were you doing the conversation test
You should have felt very comfortable, by steady do you mean consistent?
The garmin should only be used as a back up, don't rely on it to tell you how you feel/how fast/slow you're running, especially in tree cover, they are notoriously unreliable.
As I said above, you should expect your legs to be tired at the end of a 10 mile run so no harm there. No niggles? Let us know how you get on with physio tomorrow won't you?0 -
wolfyboy555 wrote: »What are people's plans for training when on holidays between now and the marathon? I am heading away to Turkey myself this week for just over two weeks. None of the places I will be staying in have any gyms and I can't really see myself heading out for a run in a strange city.Personally running in a strange city is great, fab way to see the place & if you go out early its peaceful too. Having said that do some googling first to see if anyone has mapoed out routes already & check with your hotel about safe areas. There's bound to be a park somewhere you could do laps of if you dont fancy the explore optionneilthefunkeone wrote: »Google map the area you are in.. If there is a city there will surly be a park.. If on the coast then maybe a board walk along a beach..
Last year in Spain I had a rental car and I had my gf drive me 10 miles away from our apartment and I ran back.
Just watch the heat.. Loads of water I suppose..
Some great advice there wolfyboy. My two cent is pack your running gear in your carry on in case your luggage gets sent to timbuctoo Better still, wear it!
Get out early and drink loads of water. Have fun 0 -
Just been reading about how much a few people struggled in races and LSR's the last few days. Would like to make a quick point just so the novices know they're not alone.
Yesterday I paced the 1:45 group in Clontarf. I've run 1:20 & 1:21 in my most recent HM's, so wasn't expecting yesterday to be difficult at all as the pace is close to two full minutes per mile slower than I know I'm capable of. However it wasn't as easy as it should have been. I was baking with sweat on the way out from the heat and the wind on the way back was a real killer. We had banked a little bit of time, so were actually going slower than 8min/mile at that stage, but it almost felt like race effort for me. For someone whose race effort is normally 8min/mile, I'd imagine it was unsustainable yesterday. Hence I wouldn't get too worried. As I said in the race thread, I doubt there's anyone who raced yesterday (good or bad result) who's not capable of faster in more favourable conditions.
Dehydration is another thing that shouldn't be underestimated. I ran 13 miles in the sun a couple of years ago, full sure I couldn't have gone another yard afterwards if I wanted to. I only realised how thirsty I actually was that day when I got home afterwards and started guzzling water for fun. I think the same thing happened a lot of people in the DCM last year. This is probably why so many on here are struggling lately as opposed to fitness or any other factor. It shouldn't be anything like this in October (although we all thought that last year)
Keep up the good work.
Wise and reassuring words from someone who knows the score. Thanks yaboya It also reinforces that we should be drinking water regularly throughout the day, every day. 0 -
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Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »Well done to everyone who ran the Clontarf yesterday. Pity about the wind - heard it was tough! I normally run it but couldn't this year so am heading to the (half) marathon des escargots next weekend.
Did my 10 mile a day early this week and was happy with the pace. Tried my first run without map my run and music (on phone) this week which was something different. Have invested in a garmin watch so will be interested to see how this works out in the coming weeks! Well done again to everybody for yesterday.
Thanks Chilli and well done on the 'naked run' Good luck at the weekend and make sure you let us know how you get on. Have you a race plan/strategy yet? Will you be fuelling etc...and of course you'll be running without headphones won't you?! 0 -
But were you doing the conversation test You should have felt very comfortable, by steady do you mean consistent?
The garmin should only be used as a back up, don't rely on it to tell you how you feel/how fast/slow you're running, especially in tree cover, they are notoriously unreliable.
As I said above, you should expect your legs to be tired at the end of a 10 mile run so no harm there. No niggles? Let us know how you get on with physio tomorrow won't you?
I'd look like a mad man doing a conversation test while running on my own
I did feel comfortable enough to chat though if there was anyone to chat to.
Yep, I meant consistent. I've just been updating my log and I noticed every run this week has a 6:34 or 6:35 average. I skipped the strides this week so there wasn't the usual faster day.
No niggles at all, just general tiredness at the end, although I reckon I had a few more km in me. I'll get both calves, achilles and ankles massaged tomorrow and have a good chat with the physio about my training while I'm there. I'll definitely let everyone know what she says.0 -
Thanks Pink. Sounds like a tough one alright. I wouldn't have run if there had been vomiting involved myself but you made the call and toughed it out on what sounds like a very trying day so well done. Would you normally get sick from nerves or do you think your body was fighting something?
Thank you!
Sorry and know this is TMI but it was um... 'different' stomach problems. Which made me very dehydrated. Must have been something I ate even though I was very careful with diet all week with the HM in mind. I was definitely sick for real but just felt the nerves didn't help things, if you get me?
So glad reading all these other posts with some excellent runners confirming it was difficult to keep to their planned pace. I don't feel as bad 0 -
Thank you!
Sorry and know this is TMI but it was um... 'different' stomach problems. Which made me very dehydrated. Must have been something I ate even though I was very careful with diet all week with the HM in mind. I was definitely sick for real but just felt the nerves didn't help things, if you get me?
So glad reading all these other posts with some excellent runners confirming it was difficult to keep to their planned pace. I don't feel as bad
Ah I see, thanks. No, no such thing as tmi here, we're going to be very familiar with *everything* come October so (everyone) park your blushes outside this thread
And definitely, the feedback seems to be 'whatever you did on Saturday could be easily bettered on a day in different conditions' so take consolation from that.
As for running when not 100%, that's a personal call but if you (this goes for everyone) decide to race when sick etc, always lower your expectations and pace accordingly.
Well done again 0 -
Well done on the lsr, you could be a hidden top track runner - enjoying all those laps it would be very interesting watching a track 10k that reversed at random points of the race :pac: Great to see you being pace aware, try to rein the first fast mile in, as I said to BS, baby steps, fix your form, posture, breathing etc and ease into it very slowly Had you recovered ok from the 10k by the weekend?
I must be well hidden, for the last 50 years!
I felt I had recovered ok from the 10k, was tired by the end of 12 miles, but not "I can't walk another step" tired.
I was supposed to have a step back week next week but I have the Cahir inaugural Downhill HM next Sunday. I'm going to go out with the 2:30 pacers, my last HM in Kinvara in March was 2.22 ish, and run it a bit faster than a lsr, but not all out looking for a time - That's the plan at the minute anyways. Then I'm definitely having an easier week.0 -
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Pink, I make a lot of smoothies with my nutribullet so to share my two favorite recipes with you:
1 banana, 2 large handfuls of spinach, frozen pineapple, frozen mango, desert spoonful of chia seeds and coconut milk
1 banana, 1 scoop sun warrior natural flavor protein powder, frozen raspberries, frozen mango, frozen peach, tsp of vanilla extract, unsweetened almond milk
The second on is my favorite for after a tough run/session and the other one I find great in the mornings. I also add avocado to either of them sometimes and it's grand.
Thank you!
I walked to Aldi today to get some light exercise in ( very light exercise :P ) and picked up chopped up and frozen mixed berries, mango and pineapples. Only 1.80 each. Really good value and saves me chopping up everything.
I'm going to make some tomorrow night with your recipe!
I went for the Salter Nutri Pro 1000WT (with 2 year warranty). Currently on sale in Arnotts for €99. Sales assistant told me they haven't had a single complaint and they are selling huge numbers at this price. I hope my corner cutting won't bite me in the ass - went in with the intention of buying a nutri bullet, kenwood or magimix
It seems like a good one - just based on what I've made with it so far.
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Slightly unrelated: where do you all buy your protein from? Where is the best value? I like to get my protein from food but for my smoothies I throw in some powder. I'd like to get another flavour (I've got mint choc and strawberry) at a good price.
I ended up buying the two I have in the nearest available shop because I didn't have time to wait but I'm guessing online is cheap? Any tried and tested?
Does anyone else use protein powder to recover/fuel?Ah I see, thanks. No, no such thing as tmi here, we're going to be very familiar with *everything* come October so (everyone) park your blushes outside this thread
And definitely, the feedback seems to be 'whatever you did on Saturday could be easily bettered on a day in different conditions' so take consolation from that.
As for running when not 100%, that's a personal call but if you (this goes for everyone) decide to race when sick etc, always lower your expectations and pace accordingly.
Well done again
Thanks coach. You're so sweet!
Another question for you: What would you recommend we eat before a HM? I had porridge made with water and a teaspoon of meridian peanut butter 2 hours before race - same as always. It wasn't enough for the HM though. I was weak with the hunger! I know this may have been due to my sickness taking it out of me the day before BUT I'm guessing I could add maybe a protein shake in there too?0 -
Well done, sounds like you were ticking the boxes there nicely, form HTFU etc Progressing into a faster pace is normal and not to worry at, as long as you don't end up flogging yourself at this stage. You've reminded me that I must do a *wand* conversation in a few weeks! Will you remind me to remind myself
I've quoted all the replies to your sweat and hydration dilemma as I think they are all great suggestions.
However, if you don't feel thirsty on a run, no huge need to drink just yet. I didn't feel the need to drink until I was regularly getting above 13 miles. A bottle belt wasn't for me until I learned to adjust it upwards onto my waist where it fit most snugly so you might have to play around with positioning etc. The snugger it is, the better (no movement and you'll hardly notice it's there).
For hydration and nutrition post run, I drank a powder mix called Isostar last year (online from Holland and Barrett, disgusting when not thirsty but so delicious after a run) and a handful of mixed nuts and raisins until I showered and got to the scrambled eggs. Your body needs protein post-session for repair but optimal in a ratio with carbohydrates. I think the ratio is 75:25 protein to carbs but from what I've read, 50:50 works too.
Have you firmly decided on the gel option? Just curious...
Thanks to all for the responses. I really don't think the bottle-belt will be for me - but burying a bottle halfway or a few euros along will work for me. I really think I should improve on fluid-intake.
The post-run suggestion is really good - as I'm truly parched afterwards. So thanks, I'll try it.
As for in-run nutrition, yeah, I'm leaning towards the Isogels. Worked fine the last time I tried - and its easy to carry and consume.
On a lighter note, my primary stylist has sanctioned the John McEnroe-like make-over for the LSRs. OMG. :eek:0 -
Thanks Chilli and well done on the 'naked run' Good luck at the weekend and make sure you let us know how you get on. Have you a race plan/strategy yet? Will you be fuelling etc...and of course you'll be running without headphones won't you?!
Thanks! I'm not up on strategy, etc. really. I kinda just have my mile pace in my head and try to stick to that. It's probably very basic or even wrong but it's the only strategy I know! Pre-race routine / fuel is pasta and chicken the night before with porridge, banana and blueberries for breakfast the morning of the run. Water too. Again, this is an area I need to research for future runs!!
I did the 10 miler with the music back on, so I might bring it to the race. I'm still wary of running so far without it..!:o0 -
Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »Thanks! I'm not up on strategy, etc. really. I kinda just have my mile pace in my head and try to stick to that. It's probably very basic or even wrong but it's the only strategy I know! Pre-race routine / fuel is pasta and chicken the night before with porridge, banana and blueberries for breakfast the morning of the run. Water too. Again, this is an area I need to research for future runs!!
I did the 10 miler with the music back on, so I might bring it to the race. I'm still wary of running so far without it..!:o
Morning Chilli. Race strategy etc is all a learning curve but you're on the right track. Have a look here for this year's thread on marathon des escargots. If you have any questions during the week, Claud and others keeping an eye on the thread will be able to answer. The good news is that it's a flat course so you won't have to factor in hills etc in your race strategy
As for food etc, carry on doing what works for you and if it ain't broke, don't fix it 'Now is the time' to be fine tuning your approach
I would however beg ask you nicely to leave the headphones at home for the race. You will have a much better experience, I promise. You will be
- more in tune with your breathing which will make you
- more in tune with your body which will help you
- to dial back the pace if necessary before it becomes a problem. Likewise you will be able to
- increase the pace at your choosing and not be dictated to by 'the beat'
- you will also be able to hear the stewards, marshals etc. V important
- you will be able to hear any runners approaching you from behind and therefore not get in their way
- you will be able to hear supporters cheering you on!! This is the best part
Finally
- I really really really don't want to have to disown anybody so early in the plan
Good luck!0 -
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Morning Pink. I'm not too sure about the science of it but Now I tend to lean towards a carbohydrate-based breakfast on the morning of a run, I find it easier to digest. I also prefer to race 'slightly hungry', I feel it gives me an edge - and also no running to the portaloos queue - but that's a personal thing.
If you want to add a shake into the mix, now is the time to start practising however I would suggest that any protein is taken with enough time pre-race for it to digest.
Years and years ago, I used to have a boiled egg on the morning of a race. I'd eat that about 7 then travel down the country for a cross country race about 11 o'c. They're great for filling you up, only a small little thing if you're having trouble eating on the morning of a race due to nerves.
The hunger you felt shouldn't impact too much on your race performance, your body is busy raiding every part for fuel reserves however the more you train it to do this, the more efficient it will become. I know that many athletes will eat a banana roundabout an hour before a race with no GI issues during the race.
Hope that helps. Anyone else any ideas for Pink?
I would have thought if pink was sick and had been having "issues" the day before the race it would have a big impact on the hunger? Not a normal day to know for sure, stuff like that can really wipe you and take a day or two to recover. But - if you think pink that porridge wasn't enough, I'd second the banana thing. Or you could try adding a bagel to your breakfast. I find them quite filling. I used to have a bagel and a bowl of cereal.
Although I think I must be peculiar in comparison to many as I never really have to leave the 2-3 hours after eating to do exercise. Keep experimenting on your lsr's and try to recreate the race day as much as possible (time of day) and you'll find what works for you. This is what this time is all about - best to learn these things now, that's what these races are going to help with as well good luck. 0 -
AbsolutelyI would have thought if pink was sick and had been having "issues" the day before the race it would have a big impact on the hunger? Not a normal day to know for sure, stuff like that can really wipe you and take a day or two to recover. But - if you think pink that porridge wasn't enough, I'd second the banana thing. Or you could try adding a bagel to your breakfast. I find them quite filling. I used to have a bagel and a bowl of cereal.
Although I think I must be peculiar in comparison to many as I never really have to leave the 2-3 hours after eating to do exercise. Keep experimenting on your lsr's and try to recreate the race day as much as possible (time of day) and you'll find what works for you. This is what this time is all about - best to learn these things now, that's what these races are going to help with as well good luck. ...it's early, am only one coffee in :rolleyes: Plus one to the bagel addition too 0 -
I'm second week into the HHN1 plan and thinking of moving up to the HHN2 from today
Mainly because I think I can build up the mileage faster than I'm currently doing
I've been putting the time in and hitting the targets and just need to slow down a bit more on the lsr - my new garmin (early DCM pressie to myself) should help!
Another reason is holidays coming up mid August for 11 days and I'd like to try to get to a higher mileage level before I go
I'm bring the runners but can see myself getting in some 5-10k runs but no long runs as I reckon it would be divorce courts for me if I disappear for any longer
And so my question is ....
I'm doing the Fingal 10k 19/07 and the DHalf 19/09
Should I consider the Clonmel Half on 16/08 before I go on holidays on the 21/08?
Or just concentrate on sticking to the plan and building the mileage and fitness up and stick with the two events above?0 -
That sounds like a solid enough session diego, well done, esp on the form and dopey smiling Try keep the pace more on the conservative side for now (thinking of the last mile here), one of the purposes of these sessions is to get the feel for marathon pace so no need to feel like you have to lash out a fast last mile.
For now, I know it's a big ask, but I would really recommend leaving the headphones at home. Well done on a week without :cool:
You will become super body aware without and your training will improve holistically and exponentially. Promise
So Dubgal, 10 mile run was done on Saturday afternoon in the fine heat of the Phoenix Park at 2:15pm without headphones. I didn't even have them in my pocket so no temptation either and of course you are right.
The run went great up till about 8/9 miles and I felt I started to tire a bit but I really enjoyed the run.
Avg pace was 10:20min/mi, splits as follows
10:21
10:00
09:32
10:51
10:17
10:46
11:11
10:09
10:21
09:54
The pacing seems a bit all over the place to be honest but I ran about a third of the run on grass/trails where possible. Also I was using the trees as cover from the sun doing that as well so wouldn't fully trust my watch to be honest.
I followed the Frank Duffy 10 Mile route for the most part.
The tiredness also may have been done to the VO2 Max test I did earlier on Saturday.
The outside of my left hip has been a bit stiff since Saturday but nothing too bad, maybe a combination of the trails in the park and the treadmill running that morning (I think my third time on a treadmill ever).
I did a 2 mile recovery run last night after getting back down to Kerry to loose out the legs, avg pace was 11:06min/mil.
Also a top tip for everyone, a new tube of bodyglide and a car dashboard plus two hours of constant direct sunlight are not a good combination.0 -
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I agree, McMillan for race predictions and Vdot for Easy/Long run training paces (the Interval paces seem to be OK).
I am not sure why but once your Marathon time goes south of 4 hours, McMillan starts to suggest it's ok to do your long run at or even slightly faster than PMP. I am pretty sure this wasn't the case a few years ago, so something has changed. Also I find McMillan's suggested paces to be too wide ( up 90 seconds/mile between the fast and slow end)
+1, just plugged my 5k time in McMillan and got 7:21-8:xx for easy pace :eek: No frickin way is 7:21 'easy'. On the plus side, I have been bringing a stopwatch on 'time on feet' runs lately and VDot confirms what I have established (by feel
) as my easy pace. 0 -
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skittles8710 wrote: »Attention Cork Folk:
If you have the name of a good physio who knows a bit about running injuries etc can you pm me with name/details. I'd really appreciate any suggestions.
I've decided to go and make sure I've the all clear before the serious mileage increases start and that an old disc injury is gone.*
Should have done this weeks ago but was alot going on.
Good call, but sure you've all done that, right?!
You might find you'll get a few recommendations if you post it in the Random Running Questions thread. Good luck 0 -
sideshowbob321 wrote: »How much training do you currently do ? Distances, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Base run 8.75km twice week and Kettlebells/Core training 1/2 times week
How many days a week can you train?
4 days but when building up for half in April I ran min 3 times a week and one day bells/core & building up long run to 18km. I know that will need to get up to 4 running dayssideshowbob321 wrote: »I'm second week into the HHN1 plan and thinking of moving up to the HHN2 from today
Mainly because I think I can build up the mileage faster than I'm currently doing
I've been putting the time in and hitting the targets and just need to slow down a bit more on the lsr - my new garmin (early DCM pressie to myself) should help!
Another reason is holidays coming up mid August for 11 days and I'd like to try to get to a higher mileage level before I go
I'm bring the runners but can see myself getting in some 5-10k runs but no long runs as I reckon it would be divorce courts for me if I disappear for any longer
And so my question is ....
I'm doing the Fingal 10k 19/07 and the DHalf 19/09
Should I consider the Clonmel Half on 16/08 before I go on holidays on the 21/08?
Or just concentrate on sticking to the plan and building the mileage and fitness up and stick with the two events above?
Hi sideshowbob. Just looking at your recent running history, I'd hold fire on moving up to HHN2 just yet. Two weeks into the plan is a little early to be ramping it up, especially considering you haven't long come from two days running a week. My advice would be to consolidate your recent gains for another two weeks before you move up. If you really feel it won't add too much strain, you could increase the lsr in week 3 to 6/6.5 miles. The trick really is to 'hasten slowly'. At this stage, you want to build your endurance platform and jumping up to HHN2 won't benefit you hugely at this stage, in fact potentially there could be more risk.
And, just to hammer the point home again, slowing down your lsr is the biggest gain you can make at this stage
You could do the Clonmel Half, but how do you plan to do it, as a race or lsr? We've discussed the cons to doing a race as a lsr (discipline etc) but as you would have a recovery period/interrupted training afterwards, you might be able to swing it. Personally, I would barter with the OH and sell my soul do whatever it takes to get the scheduled lsr in my holidays 0 -
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betty swollox wrote: »So this week i see the boards plan has introduced hill sprints, not too sure if this is ronseal and i should be sprinting up hills. Any advice?
Apologies if this is a dumb question
No such thing betty post on the way.... 0
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