DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

bk · 02-07-2015 12:34AM

grimbergen wrote: »

I travel on it every day and with the exception of the obvious peak times (8-8.30am and 5.30-6pm) there's plenty of capacity, especially compared to a lot of other mass-transit systems in other cities ive lived in.

When people in public transport planning talk about capacity and if it is under or over capacity, they mean the maximum possible capacity at peak times, in particular the morning peak.

If people are left behind at stations between 8 and 9am because the trams are too full, then its usage is over capacity.

Clearly you will have much lighter loads outside peak hours, but that is largely irrelevant.

cgcsb · 02-07-2015 12:22PM

On the red line even at weekends it's difficult to find a spot to stand. During peek times you could be left waiting for the next one.

syklops · 02-07-2015 01:32PM

grimbergen wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what could the frequency be inctreased to? If i'm not mistaken it's every 3 minutes in the morning rush hour.

SSG to Sandyford is regular in the rush hour, though not sure about every 3 minutes. The Brides glen is every 15 minutes at rush hour. Interestingly, if the timetable is accurate the trams to/from Brides Glen are more frequent on Sunday afternoon than they are between 9 and 11am on a weekday.

Answers on a postcard...

Banjoxed · 02-07-2015 01:43PM

cgcsb wrote: »

On the red line even at weekends it's difficult to find a spot to stand. During peek times you could be left waiting for the next one.

Another take on, in this case, "peke" hour by Spike Milligan

http://allpoetry.com/Look-At-All-Those-Monkeys!

Tarabuses · 02-07-2015 01:48PM

grimbergen wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what could the frequency be inctreased to? If i'm not mistaken it's every 3 minutes in the morning rush hour.

syklops wrote: »

SSG to Sandyford is regular in the rush hour, though not sure about every 3 minutes. The Brides glen is every 15 minutes at rush hour. Interestingly, if the timetable is accurate the trams to/from Brides Glen are more frequent on Sunday afternoon than they are between 9 and 11am on a weekday.

Answers on a postcard...

The Luas website says trams every 3-6 minutes peak times SSG to Sandyford but my experience is every 4/5 minutes.

LXFlyer · 02-07-2015 02:40PM

Looking at the full timetable on the National Journey Planner, green line trams serve Sandyford inbound between 07:30 and 08:45 as follows:

07:33, 07:38, 07:42; 07:45; 07:49; 07:52; 07:56; 07:59; 08:03; 08:06; 08:09; 08:13; 08:17; 08:21; 08:24; 08:28; 08:32; 08:38; 08:43

That says to me that there is still spare capacity on that line.

Gael23 · 02-07-2015 02:41PM

A Luas linking the City Centre and Airport would be a goldmine

Red Alert · 02-07-2015 02:44PM

We need a LUAS or DART to the airport, not a pretend solution like BRT. I would strongly argue that we need to stop the proliferation of different technologies and standardise on three: normal road buses, LUAS and DART. They are all known quantities and work well when they are used as they are designed to be used.

BRT seems to give all the problems of the LUAS with none/few of the advantages. It requires segregation, is dependent primarily on fossil fuels and the buses themselves are unsuitable for use on many normal roadways.

bk · 02-07-2015 04:02PM

lxflyer wrote: »

That says to me that there is still spare capacity on that line.

I think the issue is when you come to the city center, on street running. You just can't increase the frequency of trams as they start piling up at traffic lights, due to having to contend with traffic lights, motorists, pedestrians and cyclists. They simply can't go as fast in the city center.

That is why it is noticeable that the capacity of Luas BXD is 1,000 less per hour then the green line. The green line is pretty fast and segregated outside the city and isn't even too bad when it gets into the city, only mostly lightly trafficked, wide roads.

But once it is extended into the city center, there is no way it will be able to keep up this level of speed and frequency.

That is why the Luas airport proposal has a phase 2, to put the line underground between Stephens Green and Broombridge, that would eliminate most of the difficult, slow, inner city movements and allow for much higher speeds and frequency and thus capacity.

However it isn't really clear how much this phase 2 would cost and even if it would get built. I expect doing phase 2 would push up the total cost of the project to almost the same as Metro North.

LXFlyer · 02-07-2015 04:03PM

bk wrote: »

I think the issue is when you come to the city center, on street running. You just can't increase the frequency of trams as they start piling up at traffic lights, due to having to contend with traffic lights, motorists, pedestrians and cyclists. They simply can't go as fast in the city center.

That is why it is noticeable that the capacity of Luas BXD is 1,000 less per hour then the green line. The green line is pretty fast and segregated outside the city and isn't even too bad when it gets into the city, only mostly lightly trafficked, wide roads.

But once it is extended into the city center, there is no way it will be able to keep up this level of speed and frequency.

That is why the Luas airport proposal has a phase 2, to put the line underground between Stephens Green and Broombridge, that would eliminate most of the difficult, slow, inner city movements and allow for much higher speeds and frequency and thus capacity.

However it isn't really clear how much this phase 2 would cost and even if it would get built. I expect doing phase 2 would push up the total cost of the project to almost the same as Metro North.

The current morning peak frequency is not even every 3 minutes - it could certainly cope with that.

There are some very sweeping statements being made, without examining what the exact service level is.

end of the road · 02-07-2015 07:19PM

Gael23 wrote: »

A Luas linking the City Centre and Airport would be a goldmine

and a metro would be even better. luas is just not able to handle the capacity required by a airport city link

brandodub · 02-07-2015 07:43PM

At best the Luas line to the airport should be a complementary form of transport. It is at rush hour capacity on both lines now. Heavy rail via DU would copperfasten Dublin Airport and the city's recovery and hence the country. There is no point in building another over capacity and slow Luas line IMHO

Van.Bosch · 02-07-2015 08:41PM

If MN is a non runner and my guess would be that it is, then I would support DART spur and the luas line. I agree that it is settling but I suspect it is all that will be built.

Building another Luas line also expands the network, I would tweak the route as I thing linking in where it does is unnecessarily long, I would try and get a more direct route to join up with BXD. When it meets BXD it should share the city part but this could limit capacity. I would also have it split from the green line at either Pearce or Suffolk street and continue to ringsend or ballsbridge.

Banjoxed · 02-07-2015 09:18PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Looking at the full timetable on the National Journey Planner, green line trams serve Sandyford inbound between 07:30 and 08:45 as follows:

07:33, 07:38, 07:42; 07:45; 07:49; 07:52; 07:56; 07:59; 08:03; 08:06; 08:09; 08:13; 08:17; 08:21; 08:24; 08:28; 08:32; 08:38; 08:43

That says to me that there is still spare capacity on that line.

So sardine can conditions preventing boarding at the inner stops doesn't happen at those times any more?

LXFlyer · 02-07-2015 09:41PM

Banjoxed wrote: »

So sardine can conditions preventing boarding at the inner stops doesn't happen at those times any more?

There is scope for running more teams - that's my point.

That line is not being run at full capacity.

Grandeeod · 02-07-2015 09:45PM

A very sad thread. 40 odd years later and nothing has really changed that much.

Banjoxed · 02-07-2015 09:53PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

A very sad thread. 40 odd years later and nothing has really changed that much.

Well no, for the simple reason that Official Ireland doesn't seem to want to commit to any project that doesn't involve red lines on maps that can be moved for fun and profit.

Grandeeod · 02-07-2015 10:10PM

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well no, for the simple reason that Official Ireland doesn't seem to want to commit to any project that doesn't involve red lines on maps that can be moved for fun and profit.

I don't think you really disagreed with what I said.

Banjoxed · 03-07-2015 12:20AM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I don't think you really disagreed with what I said.

You're right, I don't. I've spent a lot of time since 1979 seeing schemes come and go, and seeing some right messing and interference going on in the meantime. We're not done with the messing yet.

pclive · 03-07-2015 08:30AM

Dont worry there is an election coming up there could be a change of government which will mean a whole new plan and we will be back to square one all over again!

Banjoxed · 03-07-2015 09:46AM

pclive wrote: »

Dont worry there is an election coming up there could be a change of government which will mean a whole new plan and we will be back to square one all over again!

Well if one option comes to pass we'll be worrying more about getting money out of ATMs than trains, buses or trams!

bk · 03-07-2015 01:11PM

lxflyer wrote: »

The current morning peak frequency is not even every 3 minutes - it could certainly cope with that.

I expect 3 minutes would be approaching maximum capacity for inner city running.

Think about it, lets say you have a tram leave every 2 minutes at Sandyford. No problem, they fly along the segregated outskirts of the Green Line at 50+ KM/h. But then they hit the city center and have to slow down significantly, due to on street running, tight curves. Think of all the traffic lights they have to cross, and stop at for at least a minute or two. Now think of all the people and cars that continue threw red lights.

With a 3 minute or less frequency you would quiet quickly have a queue of trams at traffic lights in the city center. If you have ever been on or seen the red Luas line going through the city center, you would know this to be very true. It crawls through the city at a very slow space.

There is no hope in hell in increasing frequency to the Green Luas line beyond Stephens Green once the Luas BXD is built.

Metro North on the other hand was specced to have trams almost twice as long as Luas and operate at frequencies of up to one every 90 seconds! Simply no comparison in terms of capacity.

LXFlyer · 03-07-2015 01:16PM

bk wrote: »

I expect 3 minutes would be approaching maximum capacity for inner city running.

Think about it, lets say you have a tram leave every 2 minutes at Sandyford. No problem, they fly along the segregated outskirts of the Green Line at 50+ KM/h. But then they hit the city center and have to slow down significantly, due to on street running, tight curves. Think of all the traffic lights they have to cross, and stop at for at least a minute or two. Now think of all the people and cars that continue threw red lights.

With a 3 minute or less frequency you would quiet quickly have a queue of trams at traffic lights in the city center. If you have ever been on or seen the red Luas line going through the city center, you would know this to be very true. It crawls through the city at a very slow space.

There is no hope in hell in increasing frequency to the Green Luas line beyond Stephens Green once the Luas BXD is built.

Metro North on the other hand was specced to have trams almost twice as long as Luas and operate at frequencies of up to one every 90 seconds! Simply no comparison in terms of capacity.

Look - someone said that the Green Line had reached maximum capacity. I've then listed the morning departures which show that they are not operating at the theoretical maximum of every 3 minutes. Therefore it has not reached maximum capacity.

Going forward, the plan is for a Green line tram every 3 minutes at peak from Sandyford inbound, with trams alternating between Brides Glen-Parnell, and Sandyford-Broombridge, meaning a 6 minute frequency north of Parnell.

ardmacha · 03-07-2015 01:59PM

bk wrote: »

I expect 3 minutes would be approaching maximum capacity for inner city running.

Think about it, lets say you have a tram leave every 2 minutes at Sandyford. No problem, they fly along the segregated outskirts of the Green Line at 50+ KM/h. But then they hit the city center and have to slow down significantly, due to on street running, tight curves. Think of all the traffic lights they have to cross, and stop at for at least a minute or two. Now think of all the people and cars that continue threw red lights.

With a 3 minute or less frequency you would quiet quickly have a queue of trams at traffic lights in the city center. If you have ever been on or seen the red Luas line going through the city center, you would know this to be very true. It crawls through the city at a very slow space.

There is no hope in hell in increasing frequency to the Green Luas line beyond Stephens Green once the Luas BXD is built.

Metro North on the other hand was specced to have trams almost twice as long as Luas and operate at frequencies of up to one every 90 seconds! Simply no comparison in terms of capacity.

Exactly. From Harcourt St the Green Line is a dedicated track along the old Harcourt St line, potentially trams of any length could run at high frequency. But this dedicated infrastructure is to the throttled to the capacity of the city centre section!!

bk · 03-07-2015 04:45PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Look - someone said that the Green Line had reached maximum capacity. I've then listed the morning departures which show that they are not operating at the theoretical maximum of every 3 minutes. Therefore it has not reached maximum capacity.

Going forward, the plan is for a Green line tram every 3 minutes at peak from Sandyford inbound, with trams alternating between Brides Glen-Parnell, and Sandyford-Broombridge, meaning a 6 minute frequency north of Parnell.

And my point is that a 3 minute frequency is likely to be insufficient to service, Dublin Airport and Swords and all the places in between.

Swords is the 6th largest urban area in Ireland and is clearly a commuter town of Dublin, yet it has zero rail based transport!

It is expected to grow to 100,000 from it's current 42,000 by 2035.

Add to that the fact that for a lot of the journey it will be going through empty fields, places which if it is built, should clearly be designated for high density housing and development and also an M50 park and ride.

Luas D2 might just about be able to handle current loads, but it doesn't have a hope in hell in handling the big expected population increase in Swords or intensive developments along the route. It just isn't future proofed for that, like MN is.

LXFlyer · 03-07-2015 05:06PM

bk wrote: »

And my point is that a 3 minute frequency is likely to be insufficient to service, Dublin Airport and Swords and all the places in between.

Swords is the 6th largest urban area in Ireland and is clearly a commuter town of Dublin, yet it has zero rail based transport!

It is expected to grow to 100,000 from it's current 42,000 by 2035.

Add to that the fact that for a lot of the journey it will be going through empty fields, places which if it is built, should clearly be designated for high density housing and development and also an M50 park and ride.

Luas D2 might just about be able to handle current loads, but it doesn't have a hope in hell in handling the big expected population increase in Swords or intensive developments along the route. It just isn't future proofed for that, like MN is.

That's all a different question. I've not made any comment about the Swords/Airport corridor.

I was correcting a factual error that was made by another poster regarding the capacity on the Green Line, because clearly there is spare capacity.

Peregrine · 04-07-2015 10:09PM

If there was ever a doubt over Dart Underground being put on the long finger in favour of the North Dublin Transport Study or whatever they're calling it this time.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DSDZ3004/15&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3081152%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00509618.pdf

Grandeeod · 05-07-2015 02:11AM

Nim wrote: »

If there was ever a doubt over Dart Underground being put on the long finger in favour of the North Dublin Transport Study or whatever they're calling it this time.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DSDZ3004/15&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3081152%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00509618.pdf

MN and DU are dead in the water. It's token gestures from here on in. All of this was flagged years ago along with reopening to Navan, etc. etc. etc. Irish politicians just don't do really big rail projects. It took them over 10 years to grasp light rail and now it's their accepted panacea.

expectationlost · 05-07-2015 05:37AM

Nim wrote: »

If there was ever a doubt over Dart Underground being put on the long finger in favour of the North Dublin Transport Study or whatever they're calling it this time.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DSDZ3004/15&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3081152%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2558028%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00509618.pdf

oh yes there article abt moving the coach parking to the docks http://www.herald.ie/news/tour-buses-to-be-sent-to-docklands-to-cut-city-traffic-31336322.html

markpb · 05-07-2015 09:06AM

Grandeeod wrote: »

MN and DU are dead in the water. It's token gestures from here on in. All of this was flagged years ago along with reopening to Navan, etc. etc. etc. Irish politicians just don't do really big rail projects. It took them over 10 years to grasp light rail and now it's their accepted panacea.

I don't think it's heavy rail that killed those projects, I think it's the fact that they were meant to go underground. As soon as they were announced, the entire county (including most of Dublin) proclaimed simultaneously: "sure it's not London or New York, we don't need a Tube over here.... Getting ahead of ourselves.... Celtic tiger project ... Gold plating.... What about the west..." And the politicians listened.

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Comments