DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

LXFlyer · 30-06-2015 06:40PM

The RPA themselves in their business case are not expecting huge transfers between rail and LUAS at Broombridge.

Also I suspect people going outbound on the Maynooth line will prefer to stick to where they know, given LUAS doesn't have a public timetable per se, estimating tram arrivals at Broombridge for particular trains could be tricky, especially in the off peak when the rail service is low frequency.

ClovenHoof · 30-06-2015 07:15PM

BoatMad wrote: »

indeed but built to heavy rail standards I understand

mind you I find it bizarre we have as a country introduced two rail gauges , when most two gauge countries are tearing up theirs

Spain and Portugal, so has Australia. Switzerland has four.

jd · 30-06-2015 07:39PM

lxflyer wrote: »

The RPA themselves in their business case are not expecting huge transfers between rail and LUAS at Broombridge.

.

I think the point is that post DU the transfers between MN and the Maynooth line (at Drumcondra) would have been for the airport and Swords etc.
This is missing from the Cabra-Swords Luas plans.

LXFlyer · 30-06-2015 07:56PM

cgcsb wrote: »

BoatMad in fairness you probably should take a bit of time to at least read up about Dublin. Even those with only a passing knowledge of the place will tell you that the green line terminates at Stephen's Green and the amount of people commuting into town along the N3/Maynooth line corridor is ferocious of a morning.

I think while boatmad is using the present tense he is referring to the plans, and not the current physical layout in all his posts as you seem to think he is.

BoatMad · 30-06-2015 07:58PM

lxflyer wrote: »

I think while boatmad is using the present tense he is referring to the plans, and not the current physical layout in all his posts as you seem to think he is.

yes thanks , its not like cross city is fiction

LXFlyer · 30-06-2015 07:58PM

cgcsb wrote: »

The Luas is over capacity at the moment, becuase it was under speced

Metro North is a grade separated luas

Do you mean there is excess capacity or not enough?

If the latter you mean under-capacity not over!!

I'm not sure the Green Line is having capacity issues - people are managing to get on the trams ok.

markpb · 30-06-2015 08:02PM

Lockheed wrote: »

To be honest, i see LOADS of airport-buses going from all over ireland to the airport, so the Luas-to-airport is pointless in a way as you can get on a bus from Dublin city. Dart Underground however could reinvent the way you commute around Dublin, so I do not see why the government are even thinking of putting the Airport luas link

Jesus Christ, not this again! The point of Metro North, Luas to the airport and BRT to Swords is not to serve only the airport. They also provide higher quality public transport to all the areas between the city centre and the airport.

monument · 30-06-2015 11:59PM

BoatMad wrote: »

a luas interchanging with the maynooth line is in fact a duplication , as both are heading to the centre, traffic in other directions is likely to be small.

No, it's not duplication, it's a connection point and the routes between the Broombridge and the city centre and beyond serve different areas which are a mix of highly populated and highly populated with jobs and other trip generators.

It's a connection point for current rail services and, in the future, on what is planned to be a high-frequency Dart and Luas rail network.

BoatMad wrote: »

indeed but built to heavy rail standards I understand

And where did you get that idea from? There was never any RPA plan to build Metro North to anything but light rail spec.

BoatMad wrote: »

The current heavy rail network , is

(a) inside greater dublin, capacity and space constrained , with low speed commuter running , limited approaches to Connolly and the loop line etc , none of which are easily or cheaply fixed for the given advantages

Dart Underground would solve the issues both relatively easily and relatively cheaply fixed for the given advantages. The advantages are massive and the cost benefit analysis shows this.

It's a solution which has planning, European Investment Bank approval, and Ten-T approval.

BoatMad wrote: »

LUAS has proven to be popular and successful, one naturally does more of successful things

increasing LUAS can be grade separated , allowing longer configurations and higher running speeds ( expresses etc )

Dart has also shown to be successful, making it more frequent will make it more so and it'd be even more successful if -- like Luas -- the costs of building it were not levied on the operating body.

BoatMad · 01-07-2015 12:08AM

Dart has also shown to be successful, making it more frequent will make it more so and it'd be even more successful if -- like Luas -- the costs of building it were not levied on the operating body.

There are massive challenges to significantly increasing either DART running speeds or frequency. Even with the new signalling, it will not deliver significant advantages , especially when the track is shared with other passenger types like interurban rail etc . At the core is the massive bottle neck a two track approach to Connolly , the loop line etc , and other pinch points on the Northern approaches, many of which cannot be easily rectified

Iirsh rail capital funding is not levied on the body , it does not raise capital from internal sources, it merely has to service such loans, in exactly the same way as LUAS does

BoatMad · 01-07-2015 12:09AM

Dart Underground would solve the issues both relatively easily and relatively cheaply fixed for the given advantages. The advantages are massive and the cost benefit analysis shows this.

It's a solution which has planning, European Investment Bank approval, and Ten-T approval.

I agree, actually , even though its a rather one dimensional project

Banjoxed · 01-07-2015 12:53AM

markpb wrote: »

Jesus Christ, not this again! The point of Metro North, Luas to the airport and BRT to Swords is not to serve only the airport. They also provide higher quality public transport to all the areas between the city centre and the airport.

Never underestimate the power of reductive thinking in Ireland!

monument · 01-07-2015 08:11AM

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, actually , even though its a rather one dimensional project

It's a project which would serve the city and the GDA four high-frequency and high-capasicty lines, allows for new branches, removes bottleknecks from the approaches of two major intercity stations, makes use of the Kildare Route Project, and makes a network out of our light and heavy rail lines... If that's "rather one dimensional project" I don't know what would impress you.

BoatMad wrote: »

There are massive challenges to significantly increasing either DART running speeds or frequency. Even with the new signalling, it will not deliver significant advantages , especially when the track is shared with other passenger types like interurban rail etc . At the core is the massive bottle neck a two track approach to Connolly , the loop line etc , and other pinch points on the Northern approaches, many of which cannot be easily rectified

As already said: the major problems go away relatively easily with one project - Dart Underground.

BoatMad wrote: »

Iirsh rail capital funding is not levied on the body , it does not raise capital from internal sources, it merely has to service such loans, in exactly the same way as LUAS does

Read this thread: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054949780/1

Original Dart and original Luas construction costs were not treated the same way.

pclive · 01-07-2015 09:41AM

Mr Donohoe is also expected to be given the green light for one large project, likely to be a Luas link from Dublin city to the airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/howlin-to-announce-infrastructural-investment-plan-1.2268589

Sure why wouldn't the minister want to connect Phibsborough with the airport!

jd · 01-07-2015 10:12AM

pclive wrote: »

Mr Donohoe is also expected to be given the green light for one large project, likely to be a Luas link from Dublin city to the airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/howlin-to-announce-infrastructural-investment-plan-1.2268589

Sure why wouldn't the minister want to connect Phibsborough with the airport!

I'm only a couple of hundred meters from a proposed Luas/Metro stop, but it's nuts to go ahead with this ahead of DU :mad::mad:

hardy_buck · 01-07-2015 10:20AM

pclive wrote: »

Mr Donohoe is also expected to be given the green light for one large project, likely to be a Luas link from Dublin city to the airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/howlin-to-announce-infrastructural-investment-plan-1.2268589

Sure why wouldn't the minister want to connect Phibsborough with the airport!

God this is infuriating to hear... Not altogether unexpected when you have primary school teachers rather than engineers making decisions however

Idbatterim · 01-07-2015 11:59AM

Originally Posted by pclive View Post

Mr Donohoe is also expected to be given the green light for one large project, likely to be a Luas link from Dublin city to the airport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/polit...plan-1.2268589

Sure why wouldn't the minister want to connect Phibsborough with the airport!

no doubt he will go off happy now, like a dog given a pat on the head! Pathetic, no wonder he was given transport, an area that politicians obviously resent funding and put in place a lap dog like Donohoe. Pathetic. What else would you expect though really...

Well if it is the luas hatchet job, what a shame. have the luas on my doorstep, but wouldn't use it to get to the airport, you could fly to continental Europe before that thing would have you from brides glen to the airport... oh plus the time to walk on their travelator, to get you to the terminal... LOL!

I am assuming if the luas get chosen that it can be appealed?

God this is infuriating to hear... Not altogether unexpected when you have primary school teachers rather than engineers making decisions however

you only need common sense to see that Luas is a joke. The is what happens when decisions are made on a political basis... That why I find the debate here laughable, because we are doing it on common sense, when the government don't...

cgcsb · 01-07-2015 01:58PM

BoatMad wrote: »

i dont understand your comments

in effect luas cross city is an extension of the green line , there as planed to be engineering connection to the red line,

planned being the key word there.

BoatMad wrote: »

a luas interchanging with the maynooth line is in fact a duplication , as both are heading to the centre, traffic in other directions is likely to be small.

Not having an interchange is stark raving crazy any way you look at it. It's not duplication because the areas served by the luas green line and Maynooth Commuter/DART only briefly come within a km of each other in the City Centre. An inter change is vital.

syklops · 01-07-2015 02:02PM

Well if it is the luas hatchet job, what a shame. have the luas on my doorstep, but wouldn't use it to get to the airport, you could fly to continental Europe before that thing would have you from brides glen to the airport... oh plus the time to walk on their travelator, to get you to the terminal... LOL!

When Im going to the airport, I get on at Cherrywood, and off at Central Park(btw, I hate that name), about 15 minutes later, I walk across the road and I get the aircoach from Bewleys. Travel time on the aircoach to the airport is 55 minutes. So total travel time is 1 hour 1o minutes ignoring waiting for the aircoarch which at peak times goes every thirty minutes. Travel time from cherrywood to st stephens green is on a good day 45 minutes. I can't see how they will manage to make the luas go from St Stephens Green to the Airport in under one hour. Even if they do, travel time to the airport will be 1 hour 45mins, longer by thirty minutes than my current solution.

If I leave here and get a 5 euro taxi to Killiney Dart Station, which is the same distance from where I am but due east, I can often be in Connolly in 35 minutes. So further into town taking ten minutes less. .

cgcsb · 01-07-2015 02:03PM

lxflyer wrote: »

I think while boatmad is using the present tense he is referring to the plans, and not the current physical layout in all his posts as you seem to think he is.

I thought so too initially but it's hard to read this any other way:

cgcsb wrote: »

How Irish. Like the M50 and the 2 non connecting luas lines. Fixed at a later date at great expense.

BoatMad wrote: »

actually the two lines are connected by engineering tracks, this could be upgraded in future http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20177/luas_map_2012.pdf

personally a thing few would want to interchange with the Maynooth line, most would be heading for the major terminus is they want access to heavy rail

cgcsb · 01-07-2015 02:04PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Do you mean there is excess capacity or not enough?

If the latter you mean under-capacity not over!!

I'm not sure the Green Line is having capacity issues - people are managing to get on the trams ok.

I mean there are too many passengers and not enough frequency/tram length etc.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2015 02:13PM

cgcsb wrote: »

I mean there are too many passengers and not enough frequency/tram length etc.

Well that means that the system is under capacity - not over!

I would disagree with you. The Green Line does certainly not have capacity issues. There is still scope for service increase.

hardy_buck · 01-07-2015 02:27PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that means that the system is under capacity - not over!

I would disagree with you. The Green Line does certainly not have capacity issues. There is still scope for service increase.

In fairness I think you're being pedantic here, it was quite obvious to most what cgcsb was geting at.

Back on topic, does anybody know what date in September that the RPA on DU actually expires or is it just the end of the month? Is there any chance the government could extend the deadline? It would actually be a scandal if they spent all this money and time on having it shovel ready only to throw it down the tubes..

syklops · 01-07-2015 02:32PM

lxflyer wrote: »

I would disagree with you. The Green Line does certainly not have capacity issues. There is still scope for service increase.

Clearly you've never stood from SSG to Sandyford, been dumped out due to a fault with the Luas, stood for another 20 minutes and then stood from there to Carrickmines.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2015 02:41PM

hardy_buck wrote: »

In fairness I think you're being pedantic here, it was quite obvious to most what cgcsb was geting at.

Back on topic, does anybody know what date in September that the RPA on DU actually expires or is it just the end of the month? Is there any chance the government could extend the deadline? It would actually be a scandal if they spent all this money and time on having it shovel ready only to throw it down the tubes..

I think it's important people at least get the terminology right.

Idbatterim · 01-07-2015 02:41PM

I mean there are too many passengers and not enough frequency/tram length etc.

could they get rid of seating in certain sections as a way to increase capacity? Likely you will be able to go the first few stops without this being a problem and who cant stand for the 15 minutes or so it takes from Dundrum etc into Stephens Green?

I will repeat again what I find most laughable! I highly reckon that if the decision were taken in 5 years, Luas would be deemed inadequate, so while the hell when it wont in all likelihood even be running in 5 years, is it accepted now?

Its typical irish planning, can we get away with it job, rather than thinking with a larger capacity system, it opens up the option for far more housing, park and rides etc...

My honest opinion is they know that its now or never to get this cheap job in, that will leave them with a few hundred million more to spend in the short term on the things that really matter, i.e. welfare, PS pay and income tax cuts...

Back on topic, does anybody know what date in September that the RPA on DU actually expires or is it just the end of the month? Is there any chance the government could extend the deadline? It would actually be a scandal if they spent all this money and time on having it shovel ready only to throw it down the tubes..

yeah but surely there will be much more money in it for their mates if it has to go through planning again, the legal eagles, consultants etc, you haven't thought of them...

LXFlyer · 01-07-2015 02:42PM

syklops wrote: »

Clearly you've never stood from SSG to Sandyford, been dumped out due to a fault with the Luas, stood for another 20 minutes and then stood from there to Carrickmines.

But that is an extreme situation - that has nothing to do with the capacity of the line.

There is room to operate the service at higher frequency if the RPA so wish.

syklops · 01-07-2015 03:04PM

lxflyer wrote: »

But that is an extreme situation - that has nothing to do with the capacity of the line.

There is room to operate the service at higher frequency if the RPA so wish.

Its happened to me twice in the last three weeks so its not that extreme, but I appreciate there is room to operate the service at a higher frequency, but if the service is under capacity at peak times, then its under capacity. Saying its not under capacity because it could be improved, ignores the current situation.

We could have a fully functional subway system, and thats nearly the same as having one so lets do nothing for now.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2015 03:24PM

syklops wrote: »

Its happened to me twice in the last three weeks so its not that extreme, but I appreciate there is room to operate the service at a higher frequency, but if the service is under capacity at peak times, then its under capacity. Saying its not under capacity because it could be improved, ignores the current situation.

We could have a fully functional subway system, and thats nearly the same as having one so lets do nothing for now.

A tram failing is nothing to do with capacity. That's down to faulty equipment. That's a totally different argument.

The Green Line timetable currently is not under capacity - it's sufficient to meet the needs of users. There is room to increase frequency if they so wish and rolling stock available to do it.

grimbergen · 02-07-2015 12:01AM

syklops wrote: »

Its happened to me twice in the last three weeks so its not that extreme, but I appreciate there is room to operate the service at a higher frequency, but if the service is under capacity at peak times, then its under capacity. Saying its not under capacity because it could be improved, ignores the current situation.

We could have a fully functional subway system, and thats nearly the same as having one so lets do nothing for now.

I travel on it every day and with the exception of the obvious peak times (8-8.30am and 5.30-6pm) there's plenty of capacity, especially compared to a lot of other mass-transit systems in other cities ive lived in.

grimbergen · 02-07-2015 12:03AM

lxflyer wrote: »

A tram failing is nothing to do with capacity. That's down to faulty equipment. That's a totally different argument.

The Green Line timetable currently is not under capacity - it's sufficient to meet the needs of users. There is room to increase frequency if they so wish and rolling stock available to do it.

As a matter of interest, what could the frequency be inctreased to? If i'm not mistaken it's every 3 minutes in the morning rush hour.

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

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