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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #3002
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    And normally I'd do that but after page after page of goalposts being shifted around and strawman arguments you get to wondering...
    How much you wonder (or even that you wonder) doesn't really make any difference to the merits of the post itself though, does it? Which is probably about as close I want to get to discussing your motivations, rather than your post :)


  • #3003
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    So you think women who are forced to wear the burka aren't being oppressed. Interesting.
    False dichotomy.
    I'm absolutely against the idea of forcing anyone to wear anything!
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Because I doubt you give a flying crap about their personal freedoms, you seem to be pursuing the devils advocate role just for the sake of contrarianism.
    Well you're wrong.
    Can you address this question?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The argument is extremely sensible and straightforward.

    The grounds chosen to ban the burka must be consistent. If there are inconsistencies, it will not last long in law.

    Consider a woman who wanted to wear the burka in public in X and X's laws stated that Burkas were banned due to A,B and C. If they were able to demonstrate that A,B and C were applicable to many other items, then X would have to either remove the law or apply it fairly across all of those other items of clothing.

    Please tell me the criteria (A,B and C) above that you are hoping to use to ban the Burka.


  • #3004
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Senegal is considering banning the burka, just as Chad and Cameroon have done, in order to combat religious extremism.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/senegal-bans-burqa-stop-terrorists-disquising-islamic-dress
    The Guardian wrote:
    Senegal is considering banning women from wearing the burqa, amid rising fears of Islamic extremism in the west African country.

    The interior minister, Abdoulaye Daouda, said women would no longer be allowed to wear the Islamic dress, which leaves only the eyes exposed. Daouda said the decision was a question of national security and was designed to prevent terrorists from using the burqa as a disguise.

    An estimated 92% of Senegal’s population is Muslim. Although the country has not suffered a terrorist attack recently, authorities are concerned that the Islamic militant group Boko Haram, based in north-eastern Nigeria, may be trying to extend its range. This month, police arrested five people suspected of having ties to Boko Haram as part of a nationwide crackdown.

    Senegal is not alone in west Africa in banning the burqa. This year Cameroon and Chad, also with large Muslim populations, issued similar orders citing similar reasons. “Senegal is just following the trend,” said Martin Ewi, a senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies.

    He said the ban, though difficult to enforce, had been reasonably effective in both countries. “You still have the villages and far corners of the country where people don’t always respect the ban,” he added.

    However, the ban was not a foolproof solution, Ewi warned. Two days after Chad instituted a ban, two burqa-clad bombers blew themselves up in N’Djamena, killing at least 27 people including several police officers. “They deliberately wore the burqa to attract the attention of the police,” Ewi said.

    [...]


  • #3005
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Egypt seems to be looking at banning it as well:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypt-drafts-bill-to-ban-niqab-veil-in-public-places-a6920701.html


  • #3006
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Nooo, I think that's going too far.

    I'd support it for some professions where one is dealing with the public in a country where we are conditioned to need to see the face to be able to trust someone. But just in public in general, no.

    All that's going to do is have women from conservative households more or less housebound.


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  • #3007
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Samaris wrote: »
    Nooo, I think that's going too far.

    I'd support it for some professions where one is dealing with the public in a country where we are conditioned to need to see the face to be able to trust someone. But just in public in general, no.

    All that's going to do is have women from conservative households more or less housebound.

    Its one of those issues that someone could do a Yes Minister routine on me to go either way. But my breaker is if Muslim women get social pressure in the street to wear them then ban them to protect everyone. Ex muslin women often say they get pressure in public so I would like to see that group protected.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3008
    cowboyBuilder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I'm non religious and wouldn't usually vote to ban anything based on a religion - but where the face is covered its a security threat and is unacceptable.

    If I walked into a shop wearing a balaclava I'd be rugby tacked to the ground.

    How do they deal with immigration and passport checks ?


  • #3009
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,746 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    I'm non religious and wouldn't usually vote to ban anything based on a religion - but where the face is covered its a security threat and is unacceptable.

    If I walked into a shop wearing a balaclava I'd be rugby tacked to the ground.


    The only reason they'd be a security threat is because while the security guard would be distracted eyeballing the women wearing burqas, "Sham" Murphy would be helping himself to a five finger discount :pac:

    How do they deal with immigration and passport checks ?


    Easily - they're taken into a private room with a female official and they lift the veil for comparison with their passport photo.

    Personally, I don't see any reason whatsoever to ban it, and any justifications suggesting that we ban it because it's a symbol of oppression, are contradicting themselves. I've known plenty of Muslim women who want to wear it, and plenty of Westerners who would rather they didn't, because they find it personally unsettling. Do we tell women in the West how to dress?

    Then why should we expect we should be able to dictate how women from the Middle East should dress?


  • #3010
    cowboyBuilder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Women who want to wear the Burka are mentally ill.


  • #3011
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,746 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    Women who want to wear the Burka are mentally ill.


    "You're oppressed"

    "But I want to wear the burqa"

    "You're mentally ill"


    That doesn't sound oppressive at all then.


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  • #3012
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,248 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Samaris wrote: »
    I'd support it for some professions where one is dealing with the public in a country where we are conditioned to need to see the face to be able to trust someone.
    But just in public in general, no.
    This is all countries though.
    It's just that in countries where full face coverings are common, women's role in society would be greatly reduced, so it's less of an issue.
    All that's going to do is have women from conservative households more or less housebound.
    If I remember correctly on this or another thread, most of the Muslim women wearing the Burqa in France did so out of choice.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The only reason they'd be a security threat is because while the security guard would be distracted eyeballing the women wearing burqas, "Sham" Murphy would be helping himself to a five finger discount :pac:
    Crimes of varying degrees of severity, including terrorist attacks, have been carried out by men dressed in Burqas.
    It's not inconceivable that a similar tactic could be used here.
    Personally, I don't see any reason whatsoever to ban it, and any justifications suggesting that we ban it because it's a symbol of oppression, are contradicting themselves.
    I've known plenty of Muslim women who want to wear it, and plenty of Westerners who would rather they didn't, because they find it personally unsettling.
    Do we tell women in the West how to dress?
    Yes we do.


  • #3013
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,746 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Crimes of varying degrees of severity, including terrorist attacks, have been carried out by men dressed in Burqas.
    It's not inconceivable that a similar tactic could be used here.


    That's certainly very true, but it's inconceivable that the tactic of banning women from wearing burqas is going to do anything to prevent men from committing crimes of varying degrees of severity, including terrorist attacks.

    It's also not inconceivable that the tactic of banning women from wearing the burqa has more to do with some people's personal discomfort with something that just doesn't feel right to them.

    I'm not keen on guys parading around in leathers and pink feather boas (and that guy wearing a body stocking put me right off kilter, we're talking Ned Flanders "feels like I'm wearing nothing at all" style here), but I would never call for a ban on men wearing body stockings... weird and all as it looks to me personally!

    Yes we do.


    Oh come on, we don't! Ok, I grant you I do remember my old man telling my sister "You're not going out in that!!" (It was the 80's, all the cool kids wanted to emulate Madonna (the singer, not the Virgin... Ohh you know the one I mean :pac:), but she didn't listen then, and she's as likely to tell you where to go now if you insisted that she wear something more immodest than the burqa!

    (Muslim convert, and rest assured in full possession of her mental faculties)


  • #3014
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    ....................
    If I remember correctly on this or another thread, most of the Muslim women wearing the Burqa in France did so out of choice.
    ................

    So why ban it?


  • #3015
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,248 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That's certainly very true, but it's inconceivable that the tactic of banning women from wearing burqas is going to do anything to prevent men from committing crimes of varying degrees of severity, including terrorist attacks.
    Banning the Burqa will stop men from wearing it as well.
    Which will make it more difficult from them to carry out crimes.
    It's also not inconceivable that the tactic of banning women from wearing the burqa has more to do with some people's personal discomfort with something that just doesn't feel right to them.
    That's pretty much the reason for it.
    I'm not keen on guys parading around in leathers and pink feather boas (and that guy wearing a body stocking put me right off kilter, we're talking Ned Flanders "feels like I'm wearing nothing at all" style here), but I would never call for a ban on men wearing body stockings... weird and all as it looks to me personally!
    They're not comparable.
    Wearing leathers and pink feather boas(depending on the exact outfit) doesn't significantly impede your ability to communicate with others.
    It's also not a potent symbol of oppression and designed to dis-integrate you from society.
    Oh come on, we don't!
    We're happy to tell them how to dress in schools, certain sporting events and in some workplaces.
    Public decency laws also govern how people dress in public.
    So yes, we do tell women how to dress.


  • #3016
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Nodin wrote: »
    So why ban it?

    Depends on whether you want to know the 'why' the goverment presented to the French people, or the 'why' they presented to the ECHR; as I recall there was a bit of a discrepancy between the two;

    For the public it was that the veil was "contrary to our values and contrary to the ideals we have of a woman's dignity" and that it was "simply a prison for women who wear it"; the ban was presented as liberating Muslim women from oppression, and protecting them from being forced to wear veils, even if they didn't realise they were being forced and thought they were choosing to do so.

    For the ECHR it was to pursue the legitimate aims of “public safety” and the “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.
    As regards the aim of “public safety”, to satisfy the need to identify individuals in order to prevent danger for the safety of persons and property and to combat identity fraud (Considered not “necessary in a democratic society” by the ECHR who said it was proportionate only in a context where there was a general threat to public safety.)
    As regards “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”, the need to
    ensure “respect for the minimum set of values of an open democratic society”; respect for gender equality, respect for human dignity and respect for the minimum requirements of life in society (or of “living together”). The ECHR dismissed the first two, but accepted that the barrier raised against others bya veil concealing the face in public could undermine the notion of “living together”.


  • #3017
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Depends on whether you want to know the 'why' the goverment presented to the French people, or the 'why' they presented to the ECHR; as I recall there was a bit of a discrepancy between the two;

    For the public it was that the veil was "contrary to our values and contrary to the ideals we have of a woman's dignity" and that it was "simply a prison for women who wear it"; the ban was presented as liberating Muslim women from oppression, and protecting them from being forced to wear veils, even if they didn't realise they were being forced and thought they were choosing to do so.

    For the ECHR it was to pursue the legitimate aims of “public safety” and the “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.
    As regards the aim of “public safety”, to satisfy the need to identify individuals in order to prevent danger for the safety of persons and property and to combat identity fraud (Considered not “necessary in a democratic society” by the ECHR who said it was proportionate only in a context where there was a general threat to public safety.)
    As regards “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”, the need to
    ensure “respect for the minimum set of values of an open democratic society”; respect for gender equality, respect for human dignity and respect for the minimum requirements of life in society (or of “living together”). The ECHR dismissed the first two, but accepted that the barrier raised against others bya veil concealing the face in public could undermine the notion of “living together”.

    Indeed, I was more asking the poster why they would ban it though. As for the above, I suspect the real reason was "pandering to the far right".
    jackofalltrades wrote:
    Banning the Burqa will stop men from wearing it as well.
    Which will make
    it more difficult from them to carry out crimes.

    It was estimated that less than 2,000 women wore the burqa in France, which essentially means anyone in one sticks out like a sore thumb. If you want to carry out crimes, why would you draw attention to yourself?


  • #3018
    cowboyBuilder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Respect aswell, how rude is it to talk to someone with your face covered ??

    intimidating too.

    T


  • #3019
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    All laws are a compromise between an individual's freedom and the need to have a fair, balanced, secure and just society. Laws reflect the social mores of the society.

    There are laws against me drink driving as my doing so endangers others. There are laws against incitement to hatred as we are not free to do or say whatever we choose without being cogniscent of the effect of our actions or words on others.

    The context if very important. What is normal in one society is abhorrent in other societies. For example, Saudi Arabian society enjoys the privilage of public amputations.

    As a country, we have the absolute right and duty to ensure our laws reflect the mores and values of a free, liberal, fair and just society. The Burka is a reflection of mans dominance over women and is therefore not justifiable in a western democracy which espouses equality of the sexes.


  • #3020
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    To be pedantic , nobody is telling anyone what to wear except islamists , these laws are only telling you what you can't wear which is not unprecedented.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3021
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    As a country, we have the absolute right and duty to ensure our laws reflect the mores and values of a free, liberal, fair and just society. The Burka is a reflection of mans dominance over women and is therefore not justifiable in a western democracy which espouses equality of the sexes.
    You don't think a free, liberal, fair and just society (especially a liberal one) should pause to consider just how liberal it is to ban people from wearing clothing they freely choose for themselves, which do no harm to other people other than the offense they take from them?


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  • #3022
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    You don't think a free, liberal, fair and just society (especially a liberal one) should pause to consider just how liberal it is to ban people from wearing clothing they freely choose for themselves, which do no harm to other people other than the offense they take from them?

    It does cause some harm. Ex Muslims can be harmed and can lead to them being attacked in Muslim areas if they dont comply and continue to wear them.
    In Germany you can't dress as a Nazi so its not unpresedented for a liberal democracy to defend its civil society. On a scale of what's important its at the low end but societies are not wrong to attempt to modify the behaviour of the populus , in practice they might get it wrong but that's a different duscussion

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3023
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    It does cause some harm. Ex Muslims can be harmed and can lead to them being attacked in Muslim areas if they dont comply and continue to wear them.
    In Germany you can't dress as a Nazi so its not unpresedented for a liberal democracy to defend its civil society. On a scale of what's important its at the low end but societies are not wrong to attempt to modify the behaviour of the populus , in practice they might get it wrong but that's a different duscussion

    And women dressed in scant clothing can be attacked in dark areas at night.

    Do we ban scant clothing, or do we police the attackers?


  • #3024
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And women dressed in scant clothing can be attacked in dark areas at night.

    Do we ban scant clothing, or do we police the attackers?

    You can be attacked but not criminally. What happens is that there is social pressure to wear them so it might be by comments. I'm not aware of a problem of girls being approached and told to dress more modestly plus I dont see those 2 situations as comparable.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3025
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    You can be attacked but not criminally. What happens is that there is social pressure to wear them so it might be by comments. I'm not aware of a problem of girls being approached and told to dress more modestly plus I dont see those 2 situations as comparable.

    Do harassment laws not already cover this?

    To be honest, I am not aware of any problem of Muslim women being approached and told to wear the Burka by others, or of ex Muslims being harmed, though that is from a position of total ignorance.


  • #3026
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I'm religious and support the ban
    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    Women who want to wear the Burka are mentally ill.

    Rubbish. If I was to move to a country where people didn't wear anything at all, they'd probably consider me mentally ill for wanting to wear jeans and shirts.

    It's no bad thing that we talk about it though. We're trying to understand both sides of it, which (strict) Islamist societies don't tend to do. Overall, it's not a mode of dress that I particularly like, and some of the thinking behind it is repugnant to me, but I certainly wouldn't say that no (quite sane) woman wants to wear it. Just like with the rest of the societies they're living in though (western), it should be a matter of free will though.


  • #3027
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    It does cause some harm. Ex Muslims can be harmed and can lead to them being attacked in Muslim areas if they dont comply and continue to wear them.
    That's not wearing veils that is causing harm; that's people attacking people who aren't wearing veils causing harm. By all means, ban people attacking people who aren't wearing veils. Or even ban people attacking people who are wearing veils....
    silverharp wrote: »
    In Germany you can't dress as a Nazi so its not unpresedented for a liberal democracy to defend its civil society. On a scale of what's important its at the low end but societies are not wrong to attempt to modify the behaviour of the populus , in practice they might get it wrong but that's a different duscussion
    Well, I'm not sure France or Belgium have the same history with the Burka as Germany has with the trappings of National Socialism, nor do I think that Egypt is likely to feature high on the list of liberal democracies, but I don't disagree that countries do ban things; I don't think the fact that things are banned is any justification for banning things though, do you?


  • #3028
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I suppose when in Rome apply here's.
    Its not normal to cover your face in most most countrys that are imposing these bans, yet the people are ignoring this normality and deciding to go against it by wearing Burka's etc.

    Wearing or not wearing stuff for religious reasons is all very fine and well in theory and you may claim people are entitled to cover their face, but if they are entitled to cover their face then I am entitled to walk around nude as the FSM intended me. But somehow I don't think I'll get away with my belief.


  • #3029
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Cabaal wrote: »
    I suppose when in Rome apply here's.
    Its not normal to cover your face in most most countrys that are imposing these bans, yet the people are ignoring this normality and deciding to go against it by wearing Burka's etc.
    Wearing or not wearing stuff for religious reasons is all very fine and well in theory and you may claim people are entitled to cover their face, but if they are entitled to cover their face then I am entitled to walk around nude as the FSM intended me. But somehow I don't think I'll get away with my belief.
    I always thought 'when in Rome' was a matter of courtesy rather than legal obligation though. And if you want to walk around naked, whilst I don't want to see it, I certainly wouldn't legislate to prevent you :D


  • #3030
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    Respect aswell, how rude is it to talk to someone with your face covered ??

    intimidating too.

    T


    If brown women in big skirts scare you, your problems will not end with a burqa ban.


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  • #3031
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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