Burka ban

smacl wrote: »

Your earlier post is pretty consistent with NRA rhetoric;

That's what I was asking; how? You said it was "pretty much the same argument the NRA use in America to defend the freedom to bear arms" but you haven't said how it's pretty much the same.

smacl wrote: »

and the tag line on the end of your posts would keep those good ol' boys well happy.

I suppose it might, but it's not the argument I put forward against banning the burka

smacl wrote: »

How about 'in a society than severely restricts gun ownership, less people get shot'. The simple truth is there are extremely few situations where a private citizen needs to own a gun, where lots of people do own guns more people get shot, therefore it is reasonable to severely restrict the freedom to own a gun.

That's a very good point in favour of restricting guns. If we try it in the current context:
in a society than severely restricts what people can wear, less people get to wear what they want'. The simple truth is there are extremely few situations where a private citizen needs to choose what they wear, where lots of people do choose what they wear more people wear what they want, therefore it is reasonable to severely restrict the freedom to choose what one wears.
It doesn't really come across so well?

I understand that you think there are lots of good arguments for gun control, I just don't understand why you think those arguments can be applied to clothing control.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Questioning it isn't strawmanning it, strawmanning it is strawmanning it. When you stop strawmanning it, then we can continue the discussion.

So if I just question your statement (for instance, by asking if, based on the statement you put forward, a woman chooses to wear hijab, does it automatically follow that she is living under a culture of oppression and control? If so, is there is no possibility that she is not, is there no point in considering her actual circumstances to determine if it is the case that she is living under a culture of oppression and control?) can we continue the discussion?

Peregrinus wrote: »

What if our rules include notions like tolerance, diversity and the right of a woman to make decisions about her own body?

Now you're just being silly.

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I think in a workplace & schools that ALL religious symbolism should be banned.

What if our rules include notions like tolerance, diversity and the right of a woman to make decisions about her own body?

Kev W wrote: »

I'd agree with keeping it out of schools but adults should be able to make such decisions for themselves.

Teachers are generally adults, aren't they?

Kev W wrote: »

Schools should prioritise the children over the teachers.

And the children are harmed by seeing the practice of toleration, diversity and respect for personal autonomy?

And they benefit from learning that women should dress in a way that gratifies authority figures, and should be punished if they refuse to do so?

smacl wrote: »

But if they get the notion that the burqa is a tool used to subjugate women, many of whom are coerced to wear it, by allowing female teachers to wear the burqa in schools we're condoning this behaviour.

No. We're reinforcing the view that "the burqa is a tool used to subjugate women". Maybe we should teach our children that if they want to know the purpose and signficance of a burqa, they should talk to someone who wears one.

smacl wrote: »

What if they ask the question "why don't Muslim men wear burqas, why are they allowed show their faces and arms, why do different standards of modesty apply to men and women?"

OMG! Kids might ask questions! How can we possibly avert this calamity?

If they ask those questions, smacl, they should be given answers. That's how schools are supposed to work.

Even if they don't see burqas, they might still ask these subversive questions. They might, for example, ask why western notions of propriety and modesty differ as between men and women - why women have to cover their breasts, for example, in contexts where men do not, or why women can wear skirts in contexts where men can't.

smacl wrote: »

The thing is, it is deeply unfair. A Muslim friend of my younger daughter has been recently told she will have to wear a scarf from next year, while her brothers don't and she's extremely upset by this. Can't say I blame her.

Whereas you're perfectly fine with her being told not only that she may not wear a scarf, but that if she does she is exposed to criminal prosecution? And that this coercion will apply to her throughout her life?