Union Selling out the NQT's (or not!) Thread

ViveLaVie wrote: »

A lot of us don't join because the unions aren't backing us. What's the point?

A unions purpose is to fight for its members interests. That's its sole purpose. It's not there to fight for people who are not members. If you are not a member you can't realistically think the union should be fighting for you do you?

I was glad to be rejected from a very recent interview as I didn't want it and I didn't want to mess about with management. I've never been in a position of been offered a job and then continued looking for another. However with the state of some part time contracts at the moment (5 and 6 hours!!), you have to understand why people with bills to pay have to be fussy.

I didnt realise unemployed teachers could be in a Union. I was with ASTI and at the end of my maternity leave contract I contacted them about changing details and continuing my membership. They said that I was unemployed, I wouldn't be paying subs and my membership would be frozen. No mention of the plan sitstill referred to.

seavill wrote: »

Yes because I'm only delighted to be paying €300 a year for a union to spend their time fighting for people who couldn't be arsed paying anything is that what you are seriously suggesting? Some people need to get real.

There is no doubting that the different pay scales and changes have effected nqts a lot but nqts seem to be under the impression that they are the first workers ever to have conditions changed.
I can't buy back years that my older colleagues can. My pension, tax etc is different to those who started s few years earlier than me. People have had problems getting jobs for the last ten years it's not some new phenomenon that ye are the only ones effected by. A friend of mine is 9 years out he has just finished a year doing 8 hours a week. Going for numerous interviews every summer for the last 9 years moving for school to school and that's when he was lucky to get something.

I have had my own issues with unions as described here in the past. I don't always agree with them. They were worse than useless in one particular occasion but had I not been a member on that occasion is hardly expect someone from Dublin to come down and fight for me.

I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once

I totally agree with this. People can't expect the unions to fight for them if they don't join.

The pay and jobs situation for NQTs is pretty bad but so is the situation for graduates in most disciplines at the moment.

I first taught in 2006 and am only getting my CID this coming September. It will be for 22 hours and I am thrilled to get it, but know that I am mainly getting it due to the Ward Report circular and that wouldn't have happened if the unions didn't fight for it, due to members lobbying them to do something. I joined the ASTI when I was doing my HDip and remained a member ever since. There were times when I felt disillusioned with them and with teaching in general. I've done summer after summer of applying for jobs, interviews, crappy contracts etc

Bottom line is yes the situation for NQTs is bad but you are more likely to change that if you have the union fighting for you and they won't do that if you don't join.

seavill wrote: »

I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once

Membership in both unions has increased. You can be sure most post 2011/2012 teachers and teaching will have joined this year as a result of the strikes. The difference in pay is about 25%. Ironically teachers who are on lesser hours than NQTs are probably getting paid more.

The union acted to protect its members a few years ago and to a large extent it did (very few serving teachers took a 25% reduction). The issue now though is you have a divided union. You have NQTs and others working their asses off doing extra curriculars and extra classes in order to secure employment but then you have snide comments from those the union protected (a small minority granted) who give out then that it is going against the union and we shouldnt be further eroding our conditions which has already been the case for new teachers. I'm all for the union but it is a very complex situation rather than it being about NQTs whinging.

seavill wrote: »

Because that's what a union is. It's there for its members. We are (the members) the union. Us teachers.

If nqts are convinced the unions did not fight for them in the last few years how does not joining change that fact. The only way to get a union to do something is for the members to push the issue. Away from the ideal world everyone is out to look after themselves. Nqts think older teachers don't care about them. Nqts don't care about older members. That's how the world works. A union will fight for ITS MEMBERS. If every nqt was a union member and all went to the meetings and forced their issues onto the table things would change. Until that point people are only making excuses.

[[/S]


Of course the union acted to protect its members who else do you think it is going to protect?

Again the generalisation. In my school this year we took on about 8 new staff due to retirements and extra hours. Only one of those did any extra curricular I kid you not only one. All other extra curricular was done by the older staff the majority by the permanent members of staff.

I agree it's very complex but those older members are the ones that got us all the good conditions we have (or had) through fighting with the unions for the last 30 years. We didn't get the good conditions cause all those nqts 30 years ago sat on their arses complaining without doing anything about it.

I would have thought that a union looks our for the profession as a whole, and that includes its future members. Look at how the nurses' unions stuck up for their future members. Why couldn't the TUI/ASTI have done that?

You can't just sell people down the river and tell them to fight for the rights that you gave away once they become teachers, that's ridiculous. The whole idea of being in a union is that everyone is in it together. We aren't. There's three different pay scales. Three different pension schemes. Three tiers of inequality. Why? Cause those mollycoddled NQTs were sold off.

I'm currently a union member, but will be leaving. I joined because of the strikes for my own self protection in my NQT year but I shouldn't have bothered.

Everything in politics in this society since 2009 indicates there are two types of people: those who believe protest works, and those who believe it doesn't work. Judging by how few protest, the vast majority of the Irish population is in the latter camp.

The evidence, however, clearly shows protest is the only thing which does work - be it the OAPs going mad about the medical card being withdrawn or the water rates stuff. Both resulted in government climbdowns. My point is this: nothing will improve if people sit on the sidelines. Nothing. No government gives something without a fight. It never happens. Never. It was political necessity in the form of political threats (rise in popular support for socialist parties) which brought all the great reforms of the 20th century - social reforms, women's rights, universal healthcare and education. All of them.

The only way NQTs will improve their position is if they start organising, and that usually if not invariably means within a union structure (it's harder to take on the opponent when the army is divided). I don't feel I get value for my €335 (after tax!) fee to my Union. It's massive. I feel my working conditions have been worse than ever this past year in terms of stress. The most important thing for me is the conditions of employment. Nobody gets into teaching for the money; if we were accepted onto the Dip, we had enough to do professional exams for more lucrative careers. It's primarily about conditions and, yes, still a sense of vocation (albeit declining).

In short, I will vote for the person who will prioritise the mess at entry level - by, for instance, using union resources to explore the benefits of a centralised training and recruitment system for Irish teachers. We need to see the pros and cons of a new system like that because it is a matter or urgency for all teachers (even if more senior ones think they're immune from it) that the part-time hours and insecure employment which result in exploitation, nepotism and a wide variety of other discrimination is ended. It's no coincidence that conditions for all teachers have declined since they declined for NQTs. It has a domino effect; cheap exploitable labour at the bottom undermines the worth of all teachers. Even, in reality, pre-2011 teachers have had enormous pay reductions - look at that "Pension Related Deduction" and USC deduction on your payslip (11.3%, to be absolutely precise, of my gross income is diverted to those two new taxes alone). If you're on €50k, that's a huge €5650 extra you're paying per year, leaving aside ordinary PAYE and PRSI. I'm absolutely certain I'd spend that more wisely than anybody in the Department of Education (including that 53-year-old who retired recently on a €114,000 pension per year, and €204,000 lump sum). It is complete arse to claim pre-2011 teachers have avoided pay cuts.



For the above reasons, the priority for unions should be on sorting out, once and for all, the training/recruitment/conditions for people at entry level to the teaching profession. If the foundation of the teaching profession is shaky, as it currently is because of the state policy of creating oversupply of teachers in order to bring the cost of employment down, then the entire profession is in danger. It might say 'teacher' on the 'Occupation' section of forms you fill out, but you'll be more of a childminder/administrator of teenagers in ten years if we don't sort out what's happening at entry level in this profession. Join the union. Make it your union. Any established teacher with a bit of an eye for a pattern can see the sort of job they'll be in in ten years time unless they do their utmost to stop it now - and the really smart teachers know that in ten years time it will probably be too late for them to change career. That's a sobering thought.

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Have you attended union meetings regularly?
Have you raised these issues at union meetings?
Have you lobbied your union reps?

I've lobbied my reps. I don't have the time to go to the compulsory NIPT NQT workshops let alone go to union meetings.

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Are you comfortable to go ahead in your career without union protection in relation to future contracts/issues?
Do you have an interest in improving conditions?

It's a risk I've weighed up. As a practical teacher, there's no doubt that the backing that a union can give is pretty good. But why should I be part of a union if it doesn't represent me? Of course I want to improve conditions, who doesn't? But how can I feel comfortable in a union who are more concerned about CPD workshops instead of the young workers who they betrayed?

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As an active union member, I agree that the unions certainly have their faults but some NQTs are really cutting off their nose to spite their face.
We have ALL suffered since the start of the cutbacks and we have all "been sold up the river" in terms of pay and conditions.
Granted, the tiered pay system is probably the worst thing to happen to the profession and I can totally understand the frustrations of NPTs.

Then it should be the first thing they should be addressing. Nothing else. Equality is the keyword of 2015, and yet older members don't give a damn about us. Did they/you stand up for us?

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

It's not fair to say that the unions are "doing nothing".
These issues have been brought up at union level, both locally and nationally, and from the last few meetings I was at, they weren't brought up by NQTs, but those of us who have been "protected" as you put it.

Unions are also fighting for better contracts.
The awful practice of splitting contracts that had creeped in.
All well fighting for pay, but the jobs need to be there for a start!
There are many many teachers on the old pay scale, still working scraps of hours and moving from job to job, year in, year out.

This is also awful and needs to be addressed. How many of my classmates are abroad? We train teacher after teacher and they end up teaching in England/UAE. Is this right? Is this fair?

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I too am sick hearing NPTs complain about the union doing nothing and making divisive comments about "protected teachers".
It is especially frustrating when you are an active union member, who does raise the issues of NPTs.
There are a lot of teachers lobbying for the reversal of the tiered pay scale.
So be careful where you air your views in a school.
You don't know who is actually fighting for your pay and conditions.

Thanks. It's nice that not all people are self-serving, because at times it seems to new entrants that teachers only care about themselves and not the weakest members in the profession.

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Well you seem to be under the impression that NQTs don't suffer any of these issues either. NQTs are also suffering with casualisation of posts. I spent six years in college educating myself to be a teacher and when I arrived into the workforce the majority of my classmates had to emigrate as they couldn't even get interviews here.

Let me start by saying please don't put words in my mouth its the one thing on this site that drives me mad, when I say something and someone responds with the complete opposite to what I said.

Where did I say NQTs didn't suffer I said I have full sympathy with them especially with regards to pay.
Again I never said NQTs were not suffering due to the casualisation of the profession I acknowledged that they were but my point was NQTs seem to think they are the only ones suffering about this, there are more people in the profession suffering and suffering for 3-5-10 years because of this it is not a problem unique to NQTs. My point was NQTs in general don't acknowledge this.

Again your last point above do you think this is only a recent problem?? I am teaching 8 years. My class in college changed from having approx 22 people in it every year to having 70 of us. Followed by 70 at least the 3 years after me that I remained in college. There was not some massive amount of jobs appearing on the horizon I have no idea why they did it. 8 years ago approx. 20 of us got jobs (less than a third), many went into other jobs because they couldn't get into education. Many emigrated. This was 8 years ago. This is not a new problem unique to NQTs the last 2 years

I'm sorry I don't understand how you could possibly claim I am molly coddled when my pay was cut by 25% and I will be making a loss of over a quarter of a million euro over my life time. That is actually laughable.

My point about mollycoddling was in relation to those who I have met over the last couple of years that seem to think that just because they went to college they should automatically be handed a full time job. It has never happened that way in teaching, but some people that have had everything handed to them on a plate since they turned 10 then don't get their own way when they hit the real world and can't understand it

You pay 300 euro a year because you are obviously in full time employment. That makes it a lot easier to pay that 300 seeing as you have a job! If I were on my own contract I would also pay the same money but your interests are the ones being looked after, not mine. How is that fair? I suppose I'd be molly coddled then too.

Yes I am in full time employment and i don't apologise for that to anyone. Did you read the post above that referred to not everyone having to pay the full price depending on their circumstances. Just because I am in full time employment don't mean I have loads of money. I have a mortgage which I am paying on my own. Some months I have maybe 50 euro spending money left. Don't presume things about people just because they have a job.

MY INTERESTS ARE THE ONES BEING LOOKED AFTER BECAUSE I AM PAYING MY MEMBERSHIP (not shouting just making the same point that has been made several times but missed)

Your friend being affected by casualisation of contracts is not something unique to him. At least however he is on the old pay scale where he is paid more for those hours despite doing the same work.

No its not unique to him but that was my point to you its not unique to NQTs either despite what a vast majority seem to think.
I am on different conditions to the other subject teacher with me because he has an extra 8 years done than me. My pay is the same but not everything else is. I have said on this site I don't know how many times that the different pay scales is a disgrace but there are several different sets of conditions already in the education sector, again this is not unique to NQTs ( the pay scale is)

It doesn't sound like you have an ounce of sympathy to be quite honest and it sounds like you think that we personally should be negotiating our pay as opposed to the union which did it for us. Again I reiterate; my pay was cut before I even had the opportunity to have my voice heard on the issue and if you think it is fair to sell out new entrants to a profession to protect older members and then turn around and call those newer entrants molly coddled when their pay cuts have allowed your own to be less affected then your idea of equality in teaching is absolutely laughable.

Again can you point out where I said you should be negotiating your own pay or are you just going to continue to make stuff up that I didn't say.

Not sure how much clearer I can make it. I think the union should be negotiating on your behalf provided you are actually a union member If you are not a union member I have no sympathy as you (not you personally anyone NQT or not) are happy to accept the good things that the unions negotiate when it suits but don't want to be part of the real work

Are you under the impression that the older teachers did this on purpose to you or something? We voted no against CP twice before some people gave up the fight and gave in to the demands. I didn't say anything about selling out potential future members for our own gain is fair. I said, and again maybe you need to look up the definition of what a union is because some people here have absolutely no clue, the union fought for its members (lets be honest they were not very successful) which is what the union is there to do

a

Pretty sickening , derisory tone used in several posts in this thread towards NQTs . Look guys the reality is you can go to all the district meetings you want and phone and email your opinions ad nauseum , Pat King and Sheila Nunan ARE the unions . THEY control the unions . Their agenda you can judge based on the last five or six years . Likewise their motives ...?