8th Amendment

pmasterson95 · 23-06-2015 03:43PM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

GAURI van GULIK hasn't got a shred of credibility on this issue given her past - she formerly worked as a spin-doctor for abortionist conglomerate Marie Stopes International (where she was the European Advocacy Officer).

SW wrote: »

From the letter:

So are you saying that those doctors and counsellors are lying?

Probably be the same as his above spiel. If you are pro choice you have no credibility. But if you are against choice you are 100% credible. Like O'Dwyer.

volchitsa · 23-06-2015 05:43PM

drkpower wrote: »

Some would argue that the constitution is exactly the place that the fundamental rights of citizens (and/or of the unborn) should be.

Citizens, yes, but the unborn? What about the rights of the unconceived? Or of all our future citizens currently labouring under other nationalities? Where should they go?

Shouldn't a constitution stick to ensuring it respects all the rights of its own actual citizens, including the pregnant ones, and leave the rights of any not-yet-existing citizens till whatever time those citizens actually have their citizenship conferred on them, whether by birth or legal judgment?

Black Menorca · 23-06-2015 05:46PM

Kev W wrote: »

You implied that doctors wouldn't want to perform abortions because they would want the foetus to grow into a person whom they could treat when they become ill. I used exaggeration to show that I believe that to be a silly notion. I'll try to avoid it in future if you insist on taking everything literally.

And before you ask, no I don't literally think that you literally take everything literally so you don't need to ask me to link to examples of you doing so.

I'm lost.

Black Menorca · 23-06-2015 05:47PM

traprunner wrote: »

Their patients are the women they are seeing. That's why they get the wrist band with their personal details including date of birth. The foetus does not get their name or date of birth on a wrist band because they are not the patient.

There are two lives involved, not one.

anothernight · 23-06-2015 05:57PM

lazygal wrote: »

My other half works in one such sector and after the horror show of a braindead pregnant woman and Savita they are extremely reluctant to come here. Even the lack of transarency around our actual maternal death rate spells out that Ireland is harldy the best little country in which to be a woman of child bearing age.

My fiancé owns a couple of businesses in the IT sector. Despite being Irish, he refuses to go back to his own country. Two of the reasons are that so far healthcare has been much better here (he suffers from an autoimmune disorder, so this is a big deal), and he's terrified that I might get pregnant while living in Ireland, if we were to go back. He doesn't want to start a family where he knows that I'll be treated like a young child, with no capacity to make decisions over my own body for a full 9 months.

It's really sad, but that's the reality.

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:06PM

anothernight wrote: »

My fiancé owns a couple of businesses in the IT sector. Despite being Irish, he refuses to go back to his own country. Two of the reasons are that so far healthcare has been much better here (he suffers from an autoimmune disorder, so this is a big deal), and he's terrified that I might get pregnant while living in Ireland, if we were to go back. He doesn't want to start a family where he knows that I'll be treated like a young child, with no capacity to make decisions over my own body for a full 9 months.

It's really sad, but that's the reality.

We have bad healthcare? Try going to the US without money and see how a pregnant women is treated.

drkpower · 23-06-2015 06:07PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Citizens, yes, but the unborn? What about the rights of the unconceived? Or of all our future citizens currently labouring under other nationalities? Where should they go?

Shouldn't a constitution stick to ensuring it respects all the rights of its own actual citizens, including the pregnant ones, and leave the rights of any not-yet-existing citizens till whatever time those citizens actually have their citizenship conferred on them, whether by birth or legal judgment?

Ah jaysiz, i'm not getting into the whole is the unborn a human/a citizen/a frog/a clump of cells debate. Waste of time.

The unborn has rights. Everyone accepts that. The issue is how they are balanced against the mother and/or when the unborn develops those rights.

While I don't believe (for various legal reasons) that those matters are dealt with in a constitution, I can see why one could argue that that is exactly where they should be addressed.

23-06-2015 06:12PM

am946745 wrote: »

We have bad healthcare? Try going to the US without money and see how a pregnant women is treated.

Straw man. The poster mentioned nothing like that.

anothernight · 23-06-2015 06:13PM

am946745 wrote: »

We have bad healthcare? Try going to the US without money and see how a pregnant women is treated.

I didn't say Ireland has bad healthcare. Stop putting words in my mouth. :rolleyes:

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:15PM

anothernight wrote: »

I didn't say Ireland has bad healthcare. Stop putting words in my mouth. :rolleyes:

So you have never been pregnant in Ireland?

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:16PM

am946745 wrote: »

We have bad healthcare? Try going to the US without money and see how a pregnant women is treated.

Or you could go to the UK and be able to access abortion, including in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities and risks to health, rather than staying here and having to take your chances on the doctor who treats you calculating your risk of death in the event a pregnancy needs to be aborted.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:18PM

am946745 wrote: »

So you have never been pregnant in Ireland?

I have twice, and the system here, mainly because of the eighth amendment, makes me reluctant to be pregnant again. The maternity services here are hit and miss, no anomaly scans offered in some units, women refused c sections and ending up with pretty awful side effects, pressure to accede to interventions when they haven't been explained to you, having to continue a pregnancy even though the foetus has no brain and having to deal with medical staff who can't refer you to abortion services. Have you ever been pregnant in Ireland?

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:18PM

lazygal wrote: »

rather than staying here and having to take your chances on the doctor who treats you calculating your risk of death in the event a pregnancy needs to be aborted.

Sorry, not true Irish doctors don't take chances with anyone. They take the necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if it means the unintended death of the child.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:21PM

anothernight wrote: »

My fiancé owns a couple of businesses in the IT sector. Despite being Irish, he refuses to go back to his own country. Two of the reasons are that so far healthcare has been much better here (he suffers from an autoimmune disorder, so this is a big deal), and he's terrified that I might get pregnant while living in Ireland, if we were to go back. He doesn't want to start a family where he knows that I'll be treated like a young child, with no capacity to make decisions over my own body for a full 9 months.

It's really sad, but that's the reality.

Honestly, I struggle with having another pregnancy here after what happened to NP before Christmas. I don't want my children have to watch me rot away because I happen to be pregnant and braindead. I don't want to have to travel in the event I wish to terminate a pregnancy. When I was younger, I always kept money on standby in the event I needed to travel because I didn't want to be in a position where the only reason I couldn't access abortion was financial. I now donate to the abortion support network because I don't want other women to be in a position where they are only staying pregnant because they can't pay for an abortion.

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:21PM

Maternity services: ‘I felt safe in the hands of the professionals’

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/parenting/maternity-services-i-felt-safe-in-the-hands-of-the-professionals-1.2168618

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:22PM

am946745 wrote: »

Sorry, not true Irish doctors don't take chances with anyone. They take the necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if it means the unintended death of the child.

Yes, they do take chances. Sometimes thats the wish of the woman, sometimes its in the case of women like Miss Y. They took the chance that she wouldn't kill herself.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:23PM

am946745 wrote: »

Maternity services: ‘I felt safe in the hands of the professionals’

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/parenting/maternity-services-i-felt-safe-in-the-hands-of-the-professionals-1.2168618

What about the women who don't feel safe? I didn't feel safe under one consultant in Holles St and I won't let him ever, ever treat me again.

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:27PM

According to Unicef we are the safest place to have a baby..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7830900.stm

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:28PM

lazygal wrote: »

What about the women who don't feel safe? I didn't feel safe under one consultant in Holles St and I won't let him ever, ever treat me again.

Decide which one you what, which my wife did for all 3 of her pregnancies.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:28PM

am946745 wrote: »

According to Unicef we are the safest place to have a baby..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7830900.stm

So because of this, women don't need access to abortion? Do you think women travelling to access services they can't get here do so despite claims like this? What does the relative safety of maternity services have to do with women who don't want to be pregnant?

That's from 2009. Our stats were not recorded properly. If you look for the information now, you'll find we're average as a place to have a baby. Countries which allow women access to abortion are also safe places to have a baby.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/ireland-scores-poorly-for-rates-of-maternal-death-30756530.html

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:30PM

lazygal wrote: »

So because of this, women don't need access to abortion? Do you think women travelling to access services they can't get here do so despite claims like this? What does the relative safety of maternity services have to do with women who don't want to be pregnant?

You mean the women who traveled and died in a taxi after one of the safe abortions in Marie Stopes clinic?

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:33PM

am946745 wrote: »

You mean the women who traveled and died in a taxi after one of the safe abortions in Marie Stopes clinic?

Oh I was wondering when that was going to be trotted out again, along with the salary of the CEO. I hear he earns 500k a year.

Abortion is safer than pregnancy. Especially early abortion. Women die giving birth, what does that tell you about birth?

Black Menorca · 23-06-2015 06:33PM

am946745 wrote: »

According to Unicef we are the safest place to have a baby..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7830900.stm

Amazing statistics.

Makes me proud of our medical professionals.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:34PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Amazing statistics.

Makes me proud of our medical professionals.

And these ones?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/ireland-scores-poorly-for-rates-of-maternal-death-30756530.html

anothernight · 23-06-2015 06:35PM

am946745 wrote: »

So you have never been pregnant in Ireland?

How do you get that conclusion from me saying: "I didn't say Ireland has bad healthcare."

I honestly don't understand your reasoning here.

frostyjacks · 23-06-2015 06:35PM

Ireland has a very high level of maternity care, as good as you'll find anywhere in the world. I fear that good name will be dragged through the mud though in an effort to introduce abortion on demand. It's an underhand tactic, I guess we'll have to brace ourselves for more of same for the foreseeable future.

Black Menorca · 23-06-2015 06:35PM

lazygal wrote: »

And these ones?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/ireland-scores-poorly-for-rates-of-maternal-death-30756530.html

"Ireland - where the risk of death is one in 47,600 - is the safest place to have a baby."

23-06-2015 06:38PM

2009 wrote:

Ireland - where the risk of death is one in 47,600 - is the safest place to have a baby.

0.0021%

2015 wrote:

Ireland ranked just 26th in Europe, denting its reputation as "the safest place in the world to have a baby."

The report from the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) on the State of World Population, which was launched in Dublin yesterday, found that Ireland had nine maternal deaths per 100,000 live births.

0.009%

So roughly a 400% increase over 6 years...

Of course, one might just stick ones fingers in ones ears and ignore the most recent and therefore more accurate statistics if it suited ones argument.

lazygal · 23-06-2015 06:38PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

"Ireland - where the risk of death is one in 47,600 - is the safest place to have a baby."

"Ireland ranked just 26th in Europe, denting its reputation as "the safest place in the world to have a baby"

am946745 · 23-06-2015 06:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course, one might just stick ones fingers in ones ears and ignore the most recent and therefore more accurate statistics if it suited ones argument.

And abortion or lack of is the cause.. Right?

8th Amendment

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