Sheep copper level

Green farmer · 19-12-2014 03:36PM #1

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

Cran · 19-12-2014 04:41PM

Green farmer wrote: »

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

I think its above 25 if same scale is toxic, but then not sure what scale mmol is against ppm

rangler1 · 19-12-2014 05:20PM

Green farmer wrote: »

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

.16 to 2.5 is normal as far as I know, so you're on the ball

ganmo · 19-12-2014 07:39PM

Cran wrote: »

I think its above 25 if same scale is toxic, but then not sure what scale mmol is against ppm

Mmol and ppm are actually totally different measurements
Mmol takes the weight of the copper atom into consideration so it's more of a count of atoms...if I haven't confused myself
Ppm = atom weight x mmol
Copper = 63
So 63 x .5 = 31.5ppm

razor8 · 22-06-2015 08:26PM

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

rangler1 · 22-06-2015 09:13PM

razor8 wrote: »

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

Which bolus were you using, Animax is safe if it breaks in the mouth

razor8 · 22-06-2015 10:05PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Which bolus were you using, Animax is safe if it breaks in the mouth

Disagree there, it was the animax ones I used and I definitely didn't injure them administrating. They were wondering aimlessly in field and head pressing against a tree which are signs I read up about. Vet gave me vitamin k and a couple of other things but it didn't save them
2 completely chewed bolus and swallowed it at the time and I'm 99.9% sure it was these two that this happened too. Some bit them but spitted them out. Was pretty pissed off to say the least! Others are all fine.

rangler1 · 22-06-2015 10:21PM

razor8 wrote: »

Disagree there, it was the animax ones I used and I definitely didn't injure them administrating. They were wondering aimlessly in field and head pressing against a tree which are signs I read up about. Vet gave me vitamin k and a couple of other things but it didn't save them
2 completely chewed bolus and swallowed it at the time and I'm 99.9% sure it was these two that this happened too. Some bit them but spitted them out. Was pretty pissed off to say the least! Others are all fine.

Pity you didn't do a PM, they're a good company, they've done loads of stuff for us investigating lamb thrive, I've only ever burst 3 or 4 coppers here in all we've used, did you give copper on its own, because there's supposed to be an insert for the gun for copper on its own, there should be no reason for the lambs to be able to bite the capsule, the gun should go past the teeth.

Just edted to say that you might be using a different gun than I'm using, but any way the bolus shouldn't be near the teeth

razor8 · 22-06-2015 10:38PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Pity you didn't do a PM, they're a good company, they've done loads of stuff for us investigating lamb thrive, I've only ever burst 3 or 4 coppers here in all we've used, did you give copper on its own, because there's supposed to be an insert for the gun for copper on its own, there should be no reason for the lambs to be able to bite the capsule, the gun should go past the teeth

I gave the bolus when dosing for worms with the insert attached to gun. Maybe I should be using more water only when doing it??
It did seem to be only Suffolk's that were causing issues, some were biting off the insert and others were managing to regurgitate the bolus before spitting it out. Had no issues with charloais or mules. Maybe just something you get better at the more you do. Certainly not a job to do if your anyway tired or in a rush!

rangler1 · 22-06-2015 10:47PM

razor8 wrote: »

I gave the bolus when dosing for worms with the insert attached to gun. Maybe I should be using more water only when doing it??
It did seem to be only Suffolk's that were causing issues, some were biting off the insert and others were managing to regurgitate the bolus before spitting it out. Had no issues with charloais or mules. Maybe just something you get better at the more you do. Certainly not a job to do if your anyway tired or in a rush!

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

razor8 · 22-06-2015 10:55PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

Thanks, the end looks big on that one, will it hold the 2g bolus? . I have the agrimin bolus gun for lambs but the 2g animax bolus won't stay in it

Green farmer · 22-06-2015 10:59PM

razor8 wrote: »

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

Sorry to hear that razor. Just when you think your doing everything by the book, going the extra mile with the bolus, that happens. You couldn't be up to the them. Sometimes no matter what you do, the sheep just decide to work against you.

orm0nd · 22-06-2015 11:01PM

we changed to the mayo bolus for young sheep found that animex gun too big

downside is that the bolus doesn't last as long but cost wise works out about the same

razor8 · 22-06-2015 11:06PM

Very happy with the agrimin bolus the lambs are done a month and looking really well, won't be going back to drenching if they keep thriving on

rangler1 · 22-06-2015 11:09PM

razor8 wrote: »

Thanks, the end looks big on that one, will it hold the 2g bolus? . I have the agrimin bolus gun for lambs but the 2g animax bolus won't stay in it

That's why said I use two or three boluses, the big ones keeps the copper boluses in the gun,
The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

razor8 · 22-06-2015 11:16PM

rangler1 wrote: »

That's why said I use two or three boluses, the big ones keeps the copper boluses in the gun,
The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

Awh with you now, will do that next year. It really couldn't have been anything else and they the tell tale signs. Thanks for help

rangler1 · 22-06-2015 11:26PM

razor8 wrote: »

Awh with you now, will do that next year. It really couldn't have been anything else and they the tell tale signs. Thanks for help

I sent you a PM there

rangler1 · 23-06-2015 07:58AM

razor8 wrote: »

Very happy with the agrimin bolus the lambs are done a month and looking really well, won't be going back to drenching if they keep thriving on

There's not a lot of difference between Coisecure, Animax, and agrimin, they all have enough of the mineral to do 5 - 6 mths. but there's a lot out there that doesn't have what they claim

Cran · 23-06-2015 08:54AM

rangler1 wrote: »

There's not a lot of difference between Coisecure, Animax, and agrimin, they all have enough of the mineral to do 5 - 6 mths. but there's a lot out there that doesn't have what they claim

Any thoughts on the Mayo healthcare ones, considering giving them to some of the lambs instead of Animax as a trial

ganmo · 23-06-2015 09:24AM

rangler1 wrote: »

The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

The copper oxide is ment to be trapped in the rumen, the fact it was chewed before it was swallowed would mean it was more likely to go straight to the abomasum where the acid would dissolve it quicker, releasing the copper

rangler1 · 23-06-2015 10:47AM

Cran wrote: »

Any thoughts on the Mayo healthcare ones, considering giving them to some of the lambs instead of Animax as a trial

Cobalt is important on this farm, lambs need 1mg/day, .75mg would do along with what's in the grass, the three I mentioned have around 100 mgs, don't know about mayo health care, I'm sure it's written on the box.
LIQITHRIVE claim three mths but I don't think there's enough cobalt for a month, I think there's only 15mg cobalt in a dose
Target whatever is deficient on your farm and make sure there's enough for the time they claim.

Cran · 23-06-2015 12:57PM

rangler1 wrote: »

Cobalt is important on this farm, lambs need 1mg/day, .75mg would do along with what's in the grass, the three I mentioned have around 100 mgs, don't know about mayo health care, I'm sure it's written on the box.
LIQITHRIVE claim three mths but I don't think there's enough cobalt for a month, I think there's only 15mg cobalt in a dose
Target whatever is deficient on your farm and make sure there's enough for the time they claim.

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

orm0nd · 23-06-2015 08:59PM

Cran wrote: »

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

MHC have a "ask a Question" box on the top of their website

they usually reply promptly, & give a very thorough answer

rangler1 · 23-06-2015 09:41PM

ganmo wrote: »

The copper oxide is ment to be trapped in the rumen, the fact it was chewed before it was swallowed would mean it was more likely to go straight to the abomasum where the acid would dissolve it quicker, releasing the copper

It's unlikely that chewing would make any difference, only break up the capsule, I think the copper oxide 'needles' are too hard to break and when they get too the rumen they will stay there because of their weight whether in the capsule or loose

rangler1 · 23-06-2015 09:46PM

Cran wrote: »

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

Maybe you'll tell us when you find out, OH tells me there was different figures on each side of the box when we were looking into it.
BTW I think coisecure has more cobalt in than animax, but I found some in the fields after, seems to be harder given that animax

orm0nd · 24-06-2015 09:09AM

Cobalt 50mg
selenium .64mg
B.12 500mcg
Calcium 109mg
Phos. 84mg

the following is for the bolus containing copper
Copper 20.22mg
Iodine 31.84mg
selenium 1.15mg
Cobalt 35.5 mg

Calcium 88mg
Phos. 68mg

Vits. E1, D3, A B.12, B1

ganmo · 24-06-2015 10:19AM

orm0nd wrote: »

Cobalt 50mg
selenium .64mg
B.12 500mcg
Calcium 109mg
Phos. 84mg
the following is for the bolus containing copper
Copper 20.22mg
Iodine 31.84mg
selenium 1.15mg
Cobalt 35.5 mg

Calcium 88mg
Phos. 68mg

Vits. E1, D3, A B.12, B1

is that mg/kg?

rangler1 · 24-06-2015 10:42AM

ganmo wrote: »

is that mg/kg?

probably mgs in each bolus

Username John · 25-06-2015 12:58PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

Do you give 10 week old lambs the 'big bolus' Rangler?

This one - http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/tracesure-co/

The page lists

Sheep
Animals weighing over 20kg:1 bolus For up to 6 months supplementation

Are they not a bit expensive for giving to lambs, when they lambs would only get a 2-3 months out of em?

Feel free to tell me I being penny-wise and pound-foolish

rangler1 · 25-06-2015 02:40PM

Username John wrote: »

Do you give 10 week old lambs the 'big bolus' Rangler?

This one - http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/tracesure-co/

The page lists

Are they not a bit expensive for giving to lambs, when they lambs would only get a 2-3 months out of em?

Feel free to tell me I being penny-wise and pound-foolish

The three boluses costs €1.70 and you only have to do them once so you save labour, secondly, lambs can stall and if we end up with a lot of lambs in September, it's a major cost, and I believe that Animax is reducing our chance of ending up with a lot of lambs.
What other options are out there, there seems to be a range of minerals in animax that suits the farm.....I've always related here to the problems we have with lamb thrive, and it doesn't seem to be as big a problem now.
We use the 4mg copper and the two big boluses on everything, just after doing the doubles out of the hoggets and there was two born the 1st of may waeighing 20kg
What price is the mayo healthcare bolus, it has enough cobalt for 6-7 wks

Username John · 25-06-2015 03:03PM

rangler1 wrote: »

The three boluses costs €1.70 and you only have to do them once so you save labour, secondly, lambs can stall and if we end up with a lot of lambs in September, it's a major cost, and I believe that Animax is reducing our chance of ending up with a lot of lambs.
What other options are out there, there seems to be a range of minerals in animax that suits the farm.....I've always related here to the problems we have with lamb thrive, and it doesn't seem to be as big a problem now.
We use the 4mg copper and the two big boluses on everything, just after doing the doubles out of the hoggets and there was two born the 1st of may waeighing 20kg
What price is the mayo healthcare bolus, it has enough cobalt for 6-7 wks

Thanks Rangler , good answer as always.

I only use the Cobalt bolus - I have no scientific basis for not using the SE ones, just I dont think they are needed. I see good enough results with the Cobalt ones alone...

I used the copper ones on the ewes before, but I wouldnt like to do so on the lambs without some analysis first.

Was it blood tests you did - to analyse you needed to give copper? (Sorry to be asking, am sure you told this before)

Sheep copper level

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