Sheep copper level

Green farmer

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

Cran

Green farmer wrote: »

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

I think its above 25 if same scale is toxic, but then not sure what scale mmol is against ppm

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

Had a store lamb kick the bucket a week or so ago. Sent it to labs and got liver tested. Cooper level came back at 0.5 mmol per kg. anyone know what normal levels should be in a 6 month old lamb ?

.16 to 2.5 is normal as far as I know, so you're on the ball

ganmo

Cran wrote: »

I think its above 25 if same scale is toxic, but then not sure what scale mmol is against ppm

Mmol and ppm are actually totally different measurements
Mmol takes the weight of the copper atom into consideration so it's more of a count of atoms...if I haven't confused myself
Ppm = atom weight x mmol
Copper = 63
So 63 x .5 = 31.5ppm

razor8

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

Which bolus were you using, Animax is safe if it breaks in the mouth

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Which bolus were you using, Animax is safe if it breaks in the mouth

Disagree there, it was the animax ones I used and I definitely didn't injure them administrating. They were wondering aimlessly in field and head pressing against a tree which are signs I read up about. Vet gave me vitamin k and a couple of other things but it didn't save them
2 completely chewed bolus and swallowed it at the time and I'm 99.9% sure it was these two that this happened too. Some bit them but spitted them out. Was pretty pissed off to say the least! Others are all fine.

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Disagree there, it was the animax ones I used and I definitely didn't injure them administrating. They were wondering aimlessly in field and head pressing against a tree which are signs I read up about. Vet gave me vitamin k and a couple of other things but it didn't save them
2 completely chewed bolus and swallowed it at the time and I'm 99.9% sure it was these two that this happened too. Some bit them but spitted them out. Was pretty pissed off to say the least! Others are all fine.

Pity you didn't do a PM, they're a good company, they've done loads of stuff for us investigating lamb thrive, I've only ever burst 3 or 4 coppers here in all we've used, did you give copper on its own, because there's supposed to be an insert for the gun for copper on its own, there should be no reason for the lambs to be able to bite the capsule, the gun should go past the teeth.

Just edted to say that you might be using a different gun than I'm using, but any way the bolus shouldn't be near the teeth

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Pity you didn't do a PM, they're a good company, they've done loads of stuff for us investigating lamb thrive, I've only ever burst 3 or 4 coppers here in all we've used, did you give copper on its own, because there's supposed to be an insert for the gun for copper on its own, there should be no reason for the lambs to be able to bite the capsule, the gun should go past the teeth

I gave the bolus when dosing for worms with the insert attached to gun. Maybe I should be using more water only when doing it??
It did seem to be only Suffolk's that were causing issues, some were biting off the insert and others were managing to regurgitate the bolus before spitting it out. Had no issues with charloais or mules. Maybe just something you get better at the more you do. Certainly not a job to do if your anyway tired or in a rush!

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

I gave the bolus when dosing for worms with the insert attached to gun. Maybe I should be using more water only when doing it??
It did seem to be only Suffolk's that were causing issues, some were biting off the insert and others were managing to regurgitate the bolus before spitting it out. Had no issues with charloais or mules. Maybe just something you get better at the more you do. Certainly not a job to do if your anyway tired or in a rush!

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

Thanks, the end looks big on that one, will it hold the 2g bolus? . I have the agrimin bolus gun for lambs but the 2g animax bolus won't stay in it

Green farmer

razor8 wrote: »

Just for your info and something to watch out for. I gave some of my lambs a copper bolus/capsule last weekend and two of the buggers chewed and swallowed it before I got them to spit it back out, they were dead in 48 hours

Sorry to hear that razor. Just when you think your doing everything by the book, going the extra mile with the bolus, that happens. You couldn't be up to the them. Sometimes no matter what you do, the sheep just decide to work against you.

orm0nd

we changed to the mayo bolus for young sheep found that animex gun too big

downside is that the bolus doesn't last as long but cost wise works out about the same

razor8

Very happy with the agrimin bolus the lambs are done a month and looking really well, won't be going back to drenching if they keep thriving on

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Thanks, the end looks big on that one, will it hold the 2g bolus? . I have the agrimin bolus gun for lambs but the 2g animax bolus won't stay in it

That's why said I use two or three boluses, the big ones keeps the copper boluses in the gun,
The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

That's why said I use two or three boluses, the big ones keeps the copper boluses in the gun,
The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

Awh with you now, will do that next year. It really couldn't have been anything else and they the tell tale signs. Thanks for help

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Awh with you now, will do that next year. It really couldn't have been anything else and they the tell tale signs. Thanks for help

I sent you a PM there

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Very happy with the agrimin bolus the lambs are done a month and looking really well, won't be going back to drenching if they keep thriving on

There's not a lot of difference between Coisecure, Animax, and agrimin, they all have enough of the mineral to do 5 - 6 mths. but there's a lot out there that doesn't have what they claim

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

There's not a lot of difference between Coisecure, Animax, and agrimin, they all have enough of the mineral to do 5 - 6 mths. but there's a lot out there that doesn't have what they claim

Any thoughts on the Mayo healthcare ones, considering giving them to some of the lambs instead of Animax as a trial

ganmo

rangler1 wrote: »

The copper oxide in Animax are not supposed to release masses of copper like that

The copper oxide is ment to be trapped in the rumen, the fact it was chewed before it was swallowed would mean it was more likely to go straight to the abomasum where the acid would dissolve it quicker, releasing the copper

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

Any thoughts on the Mayo healthcare ones, considering giving them to some of the lambs instead of Animax as a trial

Cobalt is important on this farm, lambs need 1mg/day, .75mg would do along with what's in the grass, the three I mentioned have around 100 mgs, don't know about mayo health care, I'm sure it's written on the box.
LIQITHRIVE claim three mths but I don't think there's enough cobalt for a month, I think there's only 15mg cobalt in a dose
Target whatever is deficient on your farm and make sure there's enough for the time they claim.

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

Cobalt is important on this farm, lambs need 1mg/day, .75mg would do along with what's in the grass, the three I mentioned have around 100 mgs, don't know about mayo health care, I'm sure it's written on the box.
LIQITHRIVE claim three mths but I don't think there's enough cobalt for a month, I think there's only 15mg cobalt in a dose
Target whatever is deficient on your farm and make sure there's enough for the time they claim.

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

orm0nd

Cran wrote: »

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

MHC have a "ask a Question" box on the top of their website

they usually reply promptly, & give a very thorough answer

rangler1

ganmo wrote: »

The copper oxide is ment to be trapped in the rumen, the fact it was chewed before it was swallowed would mean it was more likely to go straight to the abomasum where the acid would dissolve it quicker, releasing the copper

It's unlikely that chewing would make any difference, only break up the capsule, I think the copper oxide 'needles' are too hard to break and when they get too the rumen they will stay there because of their weight whether in the capsule or loose

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

Thanks Rangler makes sense on the mgs, not listed on the site may go read a box in the vets. Ye in a cobalt deficient area here and have a copper problem, been using animax for 3 years now and happy with them.

Just thinking of trying the Mayo ones if any good as not really getting the full 6 month value out of the animax on the lambs.

Maybe you'll tell us when you find out, OH tells me there was different figures on each side of the box when we were looking into it.
BTW I think coisecure has more cobalt in than animax, but I found some in the fields after, seems to be harder given that animax

orm0nd

Cobalt 50mg
selenium .64mg
B.12 500mcg
Calcium 109mg
Phos. 84mg

---

the following is for the bolus containing copper
Copper 20.22mg
Iodine 31.84mg
selenium 1.15mg
Cobalt 35.5 mg

Calcium 88mg
Phos. 68mg

Vits. E1, D3, A B.12, B1

ganmo

orm0nd wrote: »

Cobalt 50mg
selenium .64mg
B.12 500mcg
Calcium 109mg
Phos. 84mg

---

the following is for the bolus containing copper
Copper 20.22mg
Iodine 31.84mg
selenium 1.15mg
Cobalt 35.5 mg

Calcium 88mg
Phos. 68mg

Vits. E1, D3, A B.12, B1

is that mg/kg?

rangler1

ganmo wrote: »

is that mg/kg?

probably mgs in each bolus

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

I give either two or three boluses, so I use the big gun, even on ten week old lambs.

http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/sheep-bolus-applicator/

Do you give 10 week old lambs the 'big bolus' Rangler?

This one - http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/tracesure-co/

The page lists

Sheep
Animals weighing over 20kg:1 bolus For up to 6 months supplementation

Are they not a bit expensive for giving to lambs, when they lambs would only get a 2-3 months out of em?

Feel free to tell me I being penny-wise and pound-foolish

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Do you give 10 week old lambs the 'big bolus' Rangler?

This one - http://animax-vet.com/en/products/sheep/tracesure-co/

The page lists


Are they not a bit expensive for giving to lambs, when they lambs would only get a 2-3 months out of em?

Feel free to tell me I being penny-wise and pound-foolish

The three boluses costs €1.70 and you only have to do them once so you save labour, secondly, lambs can stall and if we end up with a lot of lambs in September, it's a major cost, and I believe that Animax is reducing our chance of ending up with a lot of lambs.
What other options are out there, there seems to be a range of minerals in animax that suits the farm.....I've always related here to the problems we have with lamb thrive, and it doesn't seem to be as big a problem now.
We use the 4mg copper and the two big boluses on everything, just after doing the doubles out of the hoggets and there was two born the 1st of may waeighing 20kg
What price is the mayo healthcare bolus, it has enough cobalt for 6-7 wks

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

The three boluses costs €1.70 and you only have to do them once so you save labour, secondly, lambs can stall and if we end up with a lot of lambs in September, it's a major cost, and I believe that Animax is reducing our chance of ending up with a lot of lambs.
What other options are out there, there seems to be a range of minerals in animax that suits the farm.....I've always related here to the problems we have with lamb thrive, and it doesn't seem to be as big a problem now.
We use the 4mg copper and the two big boluses on everything, just after doing the doubles out of the hoggets and there was two born the 1st of may waeighing 20kg
What price is the mayo healthcare bolus, it has enough cobalt for 6-7 wks

Thanks Rangler , good answer as always.

I only use the Cobalt bolus - I have no scientific basis for not using the SE ones, just I dont think they are needed. I see good enough results with the Cobalt ones alone...

I used the copper ones on the ewes before, but I wouldnt like to do so on the lambs without some analysis first.

Was it blood tests you did - to analyse you needed to give copper? (Sorry to be asking, am sure you told this before)

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

What price is the mayo healthcare bolus, it has enough cobalt for 6-7 wks

last year's price about 24 cent per bolus for the ones with copper, the other one would be maybe about 20c

they recommend 1 bolus for lambs and 2 for ewes

haven't ordered any this year yet so maybe prices have changed

Green farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

last year's price about 24 cent per bolus for the ones with copper, the other one would be maybe about 20c

they recommend 1 bolus for lambs and 2 for ewes

haven't ordered any this year yet so maybe prices have changed

So at 20c a bolus, would cost €20 for 100 lambs, that's around the same as a litre of decent cobalt drench, which would have to be done twice in the 6 week period ? I'm I reading that right ? I've never bolused , but would strongly consider it at those rates? If the worked ok.

orm0nd

Green farmer wrote: »

So at 20c a bolus, would cost €20 for 100 lambs, that's around the same as a litre of decent cobalt drench, which would have to be done twice in the 6 week period ? I'm I reading that right ? I've never bolused , but would strongly consider it at those rates? If the worked ok.

we usually drench for 1 or 2 turns & then bolus



.gtg will finish this post @ another time

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Thanks Rangler , good answer as always.

I only use the Cobalt bolus - I have no scientific basis for not using the SE ones, just I dont think they are needed. I see good enough results with the Cobalt ones alone...

I used the copper ones on the ewes before, but I wouldnt like to do so on the lambs without some analysis first.

Was it blood tests you did - to analyse you needed to give copper? (Sorry to be asking, am sure you told this before)

No, we got the tests done on the livers, the vets in ICM didn't seem to mind taking the samples

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

So at 20c a bolus, would cost €20 for 100 lambs, that's around the same as a litre of decent cobalt drench, which would have to be done twice in the 6 week period ? I'm I reading that right ? I've never bolused , but would strongly consider it at those rates? If the worked ok.

The mayo bolus without the copper has enough cobalt for 50 - 60 days. I should try a trial next year, they look great value.

Green farmer

Just a silly thought, there wouldn't be any health issues with the cobalt bolus and any dust from them, coming in human contact, handling etc ?

Username John

Went in to get the mayo healthcare ones today - after ringing mayo healthcare on where to get a few weeks ago, and they told me the local place stock em.
But when I went in - they told me they don't, and haven't for a few years...
Bit annoyed now, but tis me own fault for leaving it til the last minute.

So the lambs will be getting the cobalt animax ones I have already.

Bullocks

I see the sheep are starting to climb the walls nibbling at bits of ivy /moss even though they have reasonably good grass ahead of them . Would they be lacking in anything in particular when they are at that or shoshould i give them an all rounder type mineral dose ?
We would be low on copper here with the cows but i heard you can overdose sheep with it

Username John

Bullocks wrote: »

I see the sheep are starting to climb the walls nibbling at bits of ivy /moss even though they have reasonably good grass ahead of them . Would they be lacking in anything in particular when they are at that or shoshould i give them an all rounder type mineral dose ?
We would be low on copper here with the cows but i heard you can overdose sheep with it

They'll always go after the ivy, whatever is in it.
And ash - you'd see the ewes here dancing on their back legs getting up at the ash leaves

Sheep breeder

we give the ewes the 3 bolues in one shot a month before the sponge goes in and find it works well, and gave the mayo bullet to hogget ewes in the spring going to grass and has worked well, the only fault is the gun used very poor plastic one.
we are looking at the biameda bolus 3 in 1 for this year.

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Thanks, the end looks big on that one, will it hold the 2g bolus? . I have the agrimin bolus gun for lambs but the 2g animax bolus won't stay in it

Because of the problems last year with the 4 mg copper bolus in the lleyn/texel ewes we decided to only give the vendeens copper with the other boluses and no copper to the lleyn/ texels, however the lleyns are 90g/day below the vendeens in thrive for the last 5 weeks or the vendeens have put on 3kgs more so I've given the Lleyns a 2g copper bolus.:eek:
Any way after your experience I got a gun to suit, but it does break some boluses....more so than the big gun...any way nothing died yet.

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

Because of the problems last year with the 4 mg copper bolus in the lleyn/texel ewes we decided to only give the vendeens copper with the other boluses and no copper to the lleyn/ texels, however the lleyns are 90g/day below the vendeens in thrive for the last 5 weeks or the vendeens have put on 3kgs more so I've given the Lleyns a 2g copper bolus.:eek:
Any way after your experience I got a gun to suit, but it does break some boluses....more so than the big gun...any way nothing died yet.

more or less followed suit here, not because we had any problems but based of your experience (no need to temp fate !! )

ganmo

orm0nd wrote: »

more or less followed suit here, not because we had any problems but based of your experience (no need to temp fate !! )

gave some of our lambs boluses last weekend, the rubber that goes on the dosing gun followed one of them down the throat oops

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Because of the problems last year with the 4 mg copper bolus in the lleyn/texel ewes we decided to only give the vendeens copper with the other boluses and no copper to the lleyn/ texels, however the lleyns are 90g/day below the vendeens in thrive for the last 5 weeks or the vendeens have put on 3kgs more so I've given the Lleyns a 2g copper bolus.:eek:
Any way after your experience I got a gun to suit, but it does break some boluses....more so than the big gun...any way nothing died yet.

Would you be expecting vendeens to be doing better than lleyns anyway? My lambs are gone quiet dry in wool this week and I'm wondering if bolus is still working or not😳. took a bit of set back since weaning but hopefully will improve from now on

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

Would you be expecting vendeens to be doing better than lleyns anyway? My lambs are gone quiet dry in wool this week and I'm wondering if bolus is still working or not😳. took a bit of set back since weaning but hopefully will improve from now on

Usually wouldn't be huge difference, vendeens would be slightly ahead. we've done two weighings now with poor thrive from the Lleyns and because the future ewe lambs are in the Lleyns, they're getting the best of the grass

Green farmer

Hi lads, I know we mentioned it sometime in the past and it's more expensive then drenching but, was going to throw standard mineral lick buckets into field with lambs instead of drenching. It has 483mg per kg of cobalt in it. Would that be enough cobalt ? Lambs are thriving away (35kg-45kg average )at moment on grass without any signs of cobalt deficiency.