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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

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Comments

  • #962
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    jake1970 wrote: »
    Best of luck to everyone starting marathon training this week.

    I have 3 more weeks till my sub 40 10k attempt and then i start marathon training.
    I wont derail this thread by logging my current training but i might fill in the mileage spreadsheet anyway.

    Thanks Jake! No harm in posting the odd week here when you start the plan. Have you not started a log yet?! Definitely fill in the mileage tracker sheet and best of luck with the 10k training. Keep us posted won't you?


  • #963
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    denis b wrote: »
    Last weeks homework completed

    Weekly Running Summary for Denis b Week to 21.6.15
    Monday Tues Wed Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Total
    Run Type Recovery Easy Trail Recovery Rest Recovery LSR
    Distance 5km 6km 8km 5km 5km 12km 41km
    Time 29.27 35.48 51.41 28.45 28.55 11:53.0
    Mins/km 5.53 5.57 6.27 5.44 5.47 5.59


    A good week with a Woodland Trail run in Jenkinstown Woods, Kilkenny on Wednesday. Noticeably slower on this run with the hills, heat and enjoyment of running somewhere new. Plan to run somewhere new every second week on at least one day for some sense of adventure and discovery.

    Day one week one completed this am!!!!!! Its great to be here. Best of luck everybody.
    Thanks Denis b! no offence, but I'm jumping down to annapr's translation table :D I totally agree with you about your aim to vary your route. An absolute must. Your legs are going to be tired enough at times so it is even more important to keep yourself mentally fresh and new routes will help accomplish this. Watch your paces though, your recovery runs should be, if anything, slower than your easy runs. Or have the columns been moved along a bit?! In the menu bar, there is a symbol for a grid. Click on this to make a table. Use the | symbol to separate columns and just use the backspace to go to the next line. Hope that helps :)
    annapr wrote: »
    Weekly Running Summary for Denis b Week to 21.6.15
    Monday | Tues |Wed| Thursday| Friday| Saturday |Sunday| Total
    Run Type| Recovery |Easy| Trail| Recovery| Rest| Recovery |LSR
    Distance| 5km| 6km| 8km| 5km| 5km | 12km| 41km
    Time| 29.27| 35.48| 51.41| 28.45| 28.55| 11:53.0
    Mins/km| 5.53| 5.57| 6.27| 5.44| 5.47| 5.59


    A good week with a Woodland Trail run in Jenkinstown Woods, Kilkenny on Wednesday. Noticeably slower on this run with the hills, heat and enjoyment of running somewhere new. Plan to run somewhere new every second week on at least one day for some sense of adventure and discovery.

    Day one week one completed this am!!!!!! Its great to be here. Best of luck everybody.

    Thought a table might help...[/QUOTE]
    Heehee thanks missus
    RonanP77 wrote: »
    As I mentioned before, all my running is on trails, it would be mixed terrain, gravel, clay, leaves/needles, a small amount of grass and some tarmac, it's a little rough and uneven in places but easier on the joints (I'd imagine so anyway) than the roads. I'm thinking now that I should start doing one run a week on the road to get used to it. Would that be a good idea or should I keep doing what I've been doing all along?

    I think you've had some sound advice from Notwerk Error or Myles Splitz on this already re the theory of specificity: unless your planned marathon is on trails you need to get your legs used to running on road. Vary your routes and vary the terrain but include at least one run per week on road. Eight weeks out from your planned marathon, most of your lsr's should be on road.


  • #964
    denis b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    annapr wrote: »
    Weekly Running Summary for Denis b Week to 21.6.15
    Monday | Tues |Wed| Thursday| Friday| Saturday |Sunday| Total
    Run Type| Recovery |Easy| Trail| Recovery| Rest| Recovery |LSR
    Distance| 5km| 6km| 8km| 5km| 5km | 12km| 41km
    Time| 29.27| 35.48| 51.41| 28.45| 28.55| 11:53.0
    Mins/km| 5.53| 5.57| 6.27| 5.44| 5.47| 5.59


    A good week with a Woodland Trail run in Jenkinstown Woods, Kilkenny on Wednesday. Noticeably slower on this run with the hills, heat and enjoyment of running somewhere new. Plan to run somewhere new every second week on at least one day for some sense of adventure and discovery.

    Day one week one completed this am!!!!!! Its great to be here. Best of luck everybody.

    Thought a table might help...[/QUOTE]

    Many thanks for that. I have tried to import an excel table but I dont have the minimum 25 posts yet (Must post more frequently) and when I tried to edit the mess the page just hung. Appreciate the input and sure I'm another post up.


  • #965
    ZV Yoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭ZV Yoda


    I'm doing the full race series (starting with the 5 mile this Sat). Is it OK to try for PBs on each of the races?

    My logic is that this will help me gauge what kind of time I should aim for in the DCM (since it's my 1st marathon, I've no real idea what time I should aim for).

    I'd like to see how fast I can do each of the race series, but not to the extent that I risk injury or jeopardise the marathon itself.


  • #966
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    ZV Yoda wrote: »
    I'm doing the full race series (starting with the 5 mile this Sat). Is it OK to try for PBs on each of the races?

    My logic is that this will help me gauge what kind of time I should aim for in the DCM (since it's my 1st marathon, I've no real idea what time I should aim for).

    I'd like to see how fast I can do each of the race series, but not to the extent that I risk injury or jeopardise the marathon itself.
    Hi ZV Yoda. Absolutely ok to aim for PBs in these, you're right, it's a great opportunity to see where you are.
    You will need to taper your training in the few days prior to each race. This means reducing the intensity of your runs during the week. You want to go into each race with fresh legs and a fresh mind so plenty of sleep too. You will also need to recover well so give yourself a few days of reduced intensity after the race. The longer the race, the more days' recovery needed.

    You will also need to warm up properly and allow time afterwards to cool down and stretch. Foam rolling when you get home is a good idea too, as is a good soak in a bath of Epsom salts :)


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  • #967
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    Sorry Denis and annapr but I was getting a bit upset with the inconsistency of headings and details :o ...

    Table should be like this, no? (btw, had to calculate the LSR time from the pace and distance ... but figure it was neither 11mins or 11 hours ;) )

    Weekly Running Summary for Denis b Week to 21.6.15
    | Monday | Tues |Wed| Thursday| Friday| Saturday |Sunday| Total
    Run Type| Recovery |Easy| Trail| Recovery| Rest| Recovery |LSR |
    Distance| 5km| 6km| 8km| 5km| | 5km | 12km| 41km
    Time| 29.27| 35.48| 51.41| 28.45| | 28.55| 1:11:53 |
    Mins/km| 5.53| 5.57| 6.27| 5.44| | 5.47| 5.59 |


    Ok, back to work


  • #968
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    Sorry Denis and annapr but I was getting a bit upset with the inconsistency of headings and details :o ...

    Table should be like this, no? (btw, had to calculate the LSR time from the pace and distance ... but figure it was neither 11mins or 11 hours ;) )

    Weekly Running Summary for Denis b Week to 21.6.15
    | Monday | Tues |Wed| Thursday| Friday| Saturday |Sunday| Total
    Run Type| Recovery |Easy| Trail| Recovery| Rest| Recovery |LSR |
    Distance| 5km| 6km| 8km| 5km| | 5km | 12km| 41km
    Time| 29.27| 35.48| 51.41| 28.45| | 28.55| 1:11:53 |
    Mins/km| 5.53| 5.57| 6.27| 5.44| | 5.47| 5.59 |


    Ok, back to work
    And I was getting confused!! Thanks Hilly :D


  • #969
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    And I was getting confused!! Thanks Hilly :D

    in fairness, I screwed up the numbers in my enthusiasm!


  • #970
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    annapr wrote: »
    in fairness, I screwed up the numbers in my enthusiasm!

    No, not that bit .... the 11:53.0 was Denis b's own in fact ;)


  • #971
    denis b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    No, not that bit .... the 11:53.0 was Denis b's own in fact ;)

    Folks.


    Thanks for that and good to know that an eye is being kept on the posts. Will be IT literate and fit and for this marathon!!!!!!!


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  • #972
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    I've bit the bullet and signed up. Now all I have to do is kick back, relax and wait for 26 October to roll around.








    Right?


  • #973
    marf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭marf


    Doing Clontarf on Saturday week so having to do a much longer LSR for the last few weeks than is stated on any plan. Want to get into a plan properly after it so if I go for HHN1 plan where do I drop back in and do I then shorten my long run to what is stated for that week? Thanks


  • #974
    libelula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭libelula


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I've bit the bullet and signed up. Now all I have to do is kick back, relax and wait for 26 October to roll around.


    Right?

    You'll also need to splash a couple of hundred quid on the latest gear, tell everyone you meet that you're 'going for Dublin' and get fat on carbs because you 'need the energy'.
    Just like I did last year. :D


  • #975
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    libelula wrote: »
    You'll also need to splash a couple of hundred quid on the latest gear, tell everyone you meet that you're 'going for Dublin' and get fat on carbs because you 'need the energy'.
    Just like I did last year. :D

    That all sounds pretty easy.
    I reckon I'm going to walk this marathon.


  • #976
    Firedance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭Firedance


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I've bit the bullet and signed up. Now all I have to do is kick back, relax and wait for 26 October to roll around.

    Right?
    libelula wrote: »
    You'll also need to splash a couple of hundred quid on the latest gear, tell everyone you meet that you're 'going for Dublin' and get fat on carbs because you 'need the energy'.
    Just like I did last year. :D
    Phoebas wrote: »
    That all sounds pretty easy.
    I reckon I'm going to walk this marathon.

    ehemm well yes, if that's your plan you will most likely be walking :D:D


  • #977
    RonanP77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭RonanP77


    Phoebas wrote:
    I've bit the bullet and signed up. Now all I have to do is kick back, relax and wait for 26 October to roll around.


    I had intended running over 400 mile in the next 18 weeks but your plan sounds better :-)


  • #978
    wolfyboy555
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭wolfyboy555


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Hi wolfboy, welcome to the thread and thanks for the info. If you've had a chance to read through the thread you'll have seen that football and running don't really mix from an injury perspective. Also the running involved in football training is very stop and start whereas your aim is to run continuously.

    Only running, running and more running in a controlled, progressive and structured programme will get you over that line in one piece and without walking. Tbh, I don't think you have enough running at this stage in your legs. 36km in the last month is not enough of an aerobic base to be embarking on a marathon plan 18 weeks out. Football training and an occasional cycle - while making you fitter than sedentary people - is not an aerobically-sound running base.

    How about you start jogging now, three or four times a week, build up your aerobic base over the next twelve months and tackle the marathon properly next year?
    Firedance wrote: »
    +1 to this advice wolfboy, a lower mileage base starting off puts you at risk of injury, plus you will enjoy the whole marathon experience a lot more if you give yourself a proper chance at it. There are also other marathons in the Spring like Belfast or Limerick if you don't want to wait until DCM 2016 and if you started base building now you could be ready to start a plan in January.


    Cheers for the input. I still think I want to take a crack at it. I will see how I get on with the half marathon and then decide. My thinking is if I can do 4:21 with no plan then I should be able to at least match it with an 18 week plan.


  • #979
    mobfromcork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭mobfromcork


    Notwork Error wrote: »
    Hey mob!:)

    There's a reason your HR isn't as high when doing shorter runs at a similar pace. It's a phenomenon known as cardiac drift and will be familiar to people who train by HR. It's a complicated enough mechanism which I don't want to go into too much detail on as it gets confusing but basically, you're HR will rise rise even when travelling at the same pace as you're body needs more oxygen to supply fatigued muscles and other factors as you go further.


    87% is incredibly high for an easy or long run and points to you overdoing it on the effort. You may think and feel that the effort isn't really high but your heart is saying otherwise. You definitely need to dial it back a lot if you are getting up that high, That's not aerobically dominant running. My advice would be to go out slower on these runs to take into consideration that you're HR will rise because of it.


    I wouldn't advise speeding up on the hills either, in fact, I'd advise slowing down to keep the effort level even to what it was on the flat. Not pace, effort even. Garmins can be a great tool but don't be a slave to it. Know where to use effort as your measure.

    Thanks for the reply and the info. i got the HRM and Garmin a few weeks ago and have worn it for most runs since. I'm not doing HR training as such but just try and keep an eye on it a bit. My resting HR in the morning is 43-48. Last week's 12 mile run my average HR was 153 or 83% of max. I worked out my max to be around 183/184 bpm. Fastest I've seen it on the monitor was 183 during my 5x15 second sprints. When I do 10 minute miles on my recovery runs my average is 74% of max.

    I'm not quite as fit yet as I was in February/March when I stopped my last marathon training cycle due to a knee injury. I am basing my training paces on my last Half Marathon which was done in 1.37. Maybe I should do another race in the next few weeks and reassess my times. I can't make the 5 mile race this weekend. If I didn't have the HRM, I would have said that I was under no pressure at the paces that I'm running. I'm barely breaking a sweat at the 10 minute mile runs and can hold full conversations with ease on the long runs. I'll dial it back a bit more this week nonetheless.

    Thanks again for the info

    Mark


  • #980
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    mobfromcork wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply and the info. i got the HRM and Garmin a few weeks ago and have worn it for most runs since. I'm not doing HR training as such but just try and keep an eye on it a bit. My resting HR in the morning is 43-48. Last week's 12 mile run my average HR was 153 or 83% of max. I worked out my max to be around 183/184 bpm. Fastest I've seen it on the monitor was 183 during my 5x15 second sprints. When I do 10 minute miles on my recovery runs my average is 74% of max.

    I'm not quite as fit yet as I was in February/March when I stopped my last marathon training cycle due to a knee injury. I am basing my training paces on my last Half Marathon which was done in 1.37. Maybe I should do another race in the next few weeks and reassess my times. I can't make the 5 mile race this weekend. If I didn't have the HRM, I would have said that I was under no pressure at the paces that I'm running. I'm barely breaking a sweat at the 10 minute mile runs and can hold full conversations with ease on the long runs. I'll dial it back a bit more this week nonetheless.

    Thanks again for the info

    Mark

    Thanks Mark. I'm not sure your HRM is 185, I think you need to do a far more rigorous test to establish that. I suspect your real HRM is higher which is why your readings could be giving a misleading impression.
    Your recent marathon indicates that 10m/m pace should be no bother to you which is why alarm bells started to ring when I saw 'high' readings there.
    Clearlier can you jump in here please?


  • #981
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    mobfromcork wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply and the info. i got the HRM and Garmin a few weeks ago and have worn it for most runs since. I'm not doing HR training as such but just try and keep an eye on it a bit. My resting HR in the morning is 43-48. Last week's 12 mile run my average HR was 153 or 83% of max. I worked out my max to be around 183/184 bpm. Fastest I've seen it on the monitor was 183 during my 5x15 second sprints. When I do 10 minute miles on my recovery runs my average is 74% of max.

    I'm not quite as fit yet as I was in February/March when I stopped my last marathon training cycle due to a knee injury. I am basing my training paces on my last Half Marathon which was done in 1.37. Maybe I should do another race in the next few weeks and reassess my times. I can't make the 5 mile race this weekend. If I didn't have the HRM, I would have said that I was under no pressure at the paces that I'm running. I'm barely breaking a sweat at the 10 minute mile runs and can hold full conversations with ease on the long runs. I'll dial it back a bit more this week nonetheless.

    Thanks again for the info

    Mark

    Ok 183 isn't going to be your maximum. There are various protocols for establishing your maximum heart rate and 15 second sprints isn't going to come very close. Here's a post I wrote a while ago on identify a max heart rate.


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  • #982
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Thanks Mark. I'm not sure your HRM is 185, I think you need to do a far more rigorous test to establish that. I suspect your real HRM is higher which is why your readings could be giving a misleading impression.
    Your recent marathon indicates that 10m/m pace should be no bother to you which is why alarm bells started to ring when I saw 'high' readings there.
    Clearlier can you jump in here please?

    Maybe I am missing something, but all his runs were 9 min/mile or under?

    I agree with NE here, there is definitely a fair amount of cardiac drift on the longer runs if those HR readings are correct. It's important to minimise cardiac drift in marathon training as much as possible; the reason being is that you don't want your easy HR to become 5k intensity (on the heart) as the runs increase in distance as this would obviously be impossible to hold in the marathon itself.

    A nice way to train yourself to minimise this is by trying to hold your HR in the easy zone for the entire length of your run. Say for example on an easy run your 2nd mile is 130 and your 4th mile is 160. Your AvHR might be 145 but this doesn't tell the full story as you are drifting towards a much higher intensity at the end of a run (and presumably this would have continued to rise and become unsustainable as the distance increased).
    So instead of looking at your average HR; try to keep it below your easy limit for the entire run. At first you will have to slow your runs down mile on mile to do so but eventually you will be able to hold a steady pace without your HR increasing throughout the run.


  • #983
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Maybe I am missing something, but all his runs were 9 min/mile or under?

    I agree with NE here, there is definitely a fair amount of cardiac drift on the longer runs if those HR readings are correct. It's important to minimise cardiac drift in marathon training as much as possible; the reason being is that you don't want your easy HR to become 5k intensity (on the heart) as the runs increase in distance as this would obviously be impossible to hold in the marathon itself.

    A nice way to train yourself to minimise this is by trying to hold your HR in the easy zone for the entire length of your run. Say for example on an easy run your 2nd mile is 130 and your 4th mile is 160. Your AvHR might be 145 but this doesn't tell the full story as you are drifting towards a much higher intensity at the end of a run (and presumably this would have continued to rise and become unsustainable as the distance increased).
    So instead of looking at your average HR; try to keep it below your easy limit for the entire run. At first you will have to slow your runs down mile on mile to do so but eventually you will be able to hold a steady pace without your HR increasing throughout the run.

    Mob's training paces have come down but surely he should establish a correct max first? He doesn't seem to have done that and his % readings are therefore skewed.


  • #984
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Mob's training paces have come down but surely he should establish a correct max first? He doesn't seem to have done that and his % readings are therefore skewed.

    For sure but as a seperate point he has said that his AvHR was lower on shorter, faster runs than on his longer slower one. If this is a trend and not just a one off then it indicates a high cardiac drift (no matter what his maxHR is).


  • #985
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    menoscemo wrote: »
    For sure but as a seperate point he has said that his AvHR was lower on shorter, faster runs than on his longer slower one. If this is a trend and not just a one off then it indicates a high cardiac drift (no matter what his maxHR is).

    Gotcha, thanks :)


  • #986
    Running mad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭Running mad


    Did people see the article in the Sunday independent yesterday by Gerard Hartmann who is physio to the likes of Sonya o Sullivan and Paula Radcliffe where he recommends people do 80% of their running on grass. He also recommends that you should be running for at least 2 or 3 years before attempting a marathon. Sorry it wouldn't let me link the article.


  • #987
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    marf wrote: »
    Targeting 10 min mile for DCM so what pace should I be running my LSR? Thanks!
    marf wrote: »
    Doing Clontarf on Saturday week so having to do a much longer LSR for the last few weeks than is stated on any plan. Want to get into a plan properly after it so if I go for HHN1 plan where do I drop back in and do I then shorten my long run to what is stated for that week? Thanks

    Hi marf, firstly good luck in Clontarf. Any chance of more info please, it would make answering your questions much easier :) There are a few questions towards the end of the very first post when you get a chance. Thanks!


  • #988
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    Running mad wrote: »
    Did people see the article in the Sunday independent yesterday by Gerard Hartmann who is physio to the likes of Sonya o Sullivan and Paula Radcliffe where he recommends people do 80% of their running on grass. He also recommends that you should be running for at least 2 or 3 years before attempting a marathon. Sorry it wouldn't let me link the article.

    Here we go
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/running-on-hard-roads-brutal-for-joggers-bodies-31317659.html


  • #989
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    wolfyboy555 wrote: »
    Cheers for the input. I still think I want to take a crack at it. I will see how I get on with the half marathon and then decide. My thinking is if I can do 4:21 with no plan then I should be able to at least match it with an 18 week plan.

    Thought you might say that....have a read of this so :)


  • #990
    mobfromcork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭mobfromcork


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Maybe I am missing something, but all his runs were 9 min/mile or under?

    I've only done 2 long runs with the HRM. Last week was 12 miles @ average pace of 9.23 per mile. Average heart rate was 147 bpm. Sunday's run was 13 miles @ average pace of 8.57 and average heart rate of 161bpm. My heart rate seems more linked to the elevation in the run as it was lower overall in the second half of the run which was the flatter section. It was not rising as the run went on.
    I can try and post a screen shot of it from the Garmin Connect website if you think it would be of any use.

    Thanks for the advice on finding my max heart rate Clearlier. I had done the 220 - my age and also another formula which I saw on Runner's World which was 214-(0.8 x age) for men. This is 185 for me.
    I'll try the method you mentioned on my run on Wednesday morning and see can I get a more accurate measurement.

    Thanks for the input about the zones Menoscemo. I'll give that a go during the week as well.

    Mark


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  • #991
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Running mad wrote: »
    Did people see the article in the Sunday independent yesterday by Gerard Hartmann who is physio to the likes of Sonya o Sullivan and Paula Radcliffe where he recommends people do 80% of their running on grass. He also recommends that you should be running for at least 2 or 3 years before attempting a marathon. Sorry it wouldn't let me link the article.

    He was just on Matt Cooper, only caught the end of it.


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