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8th Amendment

1…4546485051…65

Comments

  • #1412
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    But if you had your way and a woman turned up at a Marie Stopes outfit, cash in had, directly requesting her DS baby to be eliminated, would you deny her?

    What is your obsession with killing viable babies?

    You seem to be the only one suggesting it. Are you in favour?

    FFS


  • #1413
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    But if you had your way and a woman turned up at a Marie Stopes outfit, cash in had, directly requesting her DS baby to be eliminated, would you deny her?

    Can you point me to which Marie Stopes clinics offer the termination of pregnancy at 34 weeks gestation? Why do you use the term 'eliminated' when I expressly said in Ireland, which has no Marie Stopes clinics offering any abortion services, babies are delivered before 40 weeks gestation and aren't eliminated?
    Anyway Down's syndrome can be detected way before 34 weeks anyway. You can get bloods done in a new test in the first trimester. If a woman had an abortion at 12 weeks because she didn't want to remain pregnant because the diagnosis was markers for Down's is that different to turning up at your hypothetical Marie Stopes clinic at 34 weeks, cash in hand, wanting to have an abortion on request?


  • #1414
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    What is your obsession with killing viable babies?

    You seem to be the only one suggesting it. Are you in favour?

    FFS

    Also obsessed with Marie Stopes. Did you know the CEO earns 500k a year or something. :rolleyes:


  • #1415
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    But if you had your way and a woman turned up at a Marie Stopes outfit, cash in had, directly requesting her DS baby to be eliminated, would you deny her?
    After 24 weeks, in the UK, allow abortions are required to be carried out in an NHS hospital. So the scenario you put forward is illegal.

    And the number of cases of DS related abortions in the UK is 0.22% of all abortions. Would it not be more germaine to the discussion to examine the majority of abortions rather a sliver of them?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1416
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    What is your obsession with killing viable babies?

    You seem to be the only one suggesting it. Are you in favour?

    FFS

    Still no direct answer. Why, I wonder.


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  • #1417
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    Can you point me to which Marie Stopes clinics offer the termination of pregnancy at 34 weeks gestation? Why do you use the term 'eliminated' when I expressly said in Ireland, which has no Marie Stopes clinics offering any abortion services, babies are delivered before 40 weeks gestation and aren't eliminated?
    Anyway Down's syndrome can be detected way before 34 weeks anyway. You can get bloods done in a new test in the first trimester. If a woman had an abortion at 12 weeks because she didn't want to remain pregnant because the diagnosis was markers for Down's is that different to turning up at your hypothetical Marie Stopes clinic at 34 weeks, cash in hand, wanting to have an abortion on request?

    So is that a no? You would deny her wish?


  • #1418
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    After 24 weeks, in the UK, allow abortions are required to be carried out in an NHS hospital. So the scenario you put forward is illegal.

    And the number of cases of DS related abortions in the UK is 0.22% of all abortions. Would it not be more germaine to the discussion to examine the majority of abortions rather a sliver of them?

    So, you support the illegality of providing an abortion of a viable DS baby at 34 weeks gestation and denying an adult woman her direct request?


  • #1419
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So is that a no? You would deny her wish?

    Her wish is illegal. I suspect you are focused on late term abortion for a reason-and that is because you see a difference between abortion at six weeks, abortion at 20 weeks and abortion at 34 weeks. Like most people.

    Would you like to comment on the vast majority of abortions that take place before 12 weeks in a legal setting, such as Marie Stopes clinic (I hear the CEO makes 500k a year!!)?


  • #1420
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still no direct answer. Why, I wonder.

    Did you ask me a question?

    When, I wonder?

    Maybe you would get better answers if you had better questions. Or any question at all.


  • #1421
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So, you support the illegality of providing an abortion of a viable DS baby at 34 weeks gestation and denying an adult woman her direct request?
    :confused:

    it's illegal for Marie Stopes to perform abortions beyond 24 weeks.

    Carrying out an abortion at 34 weeks does not mean the foetus/child will die as it developed enough to survive outside the womb. I would support the woman terminating the pregnancy. The child will be able to survive a delivery at that stage.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #1422
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    Her wish is illegal. I suspect you are focused on late term abortion for a reason-and that is because you see a difference between abortion at six weeks, abortion at 20 weeks and abortion at 34 weeks. Like most people.

    Would you like to comment on the vast majority of abortions that take place before 12 weeks in a legal setting, such as Marie Stopes clinic (I hear the CEO makes 500k a year!!)?

    Still refusing to answer. Speaks volumes.

    Do you view such illegality as a denial of a woman's bodily integrity? If not, why not.


  • #1423
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    :confused:

    it's illegal for Marie Stopes to perform abortions beyond 24 weeks.

    Carrying out an abortion at 34 weeks does not mean the foetus/child will die as it developed enough to survive outside the womb. I would support the woman terminating the pregnancy. The child will be able to survive a delivery at that stage.

    If the mother asks for the baby to be intentionally killed in the womb at 34 weeks, it is denied in many countries. Do you view this as acceptable?


  • #1424
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still refusing to answer. Speaks volumes.

    Do you view such illegality as a denial of a woman's bodily integrity? If not, why not.

    You should try to actually read the posts.

    After 24 weeks - it is done for medical purposes. Rarely. Very bloody rarely.

    As to your hypothetical 34 week old foetus that has never fcuking happened - it would be aborted. Alive. Because it's completely viable.

    NO woman will wait til 34 weeks then decide to have an abortion.

    All you're doing here is presenting absolutely ridiculous scenarios so that when people respond, you can say "lol but you said you value bodily integrity, you're a liar."

    We see your agenda. Now please move on and speak about things that have a distinct possibility of happening.


  • #1425
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still refusing to answer. Speaks volumes.

    Do you view such illegality as a denial of a woman's bodily integrity? If not, why not.

    The woman wouldn't go to Marie Stopes in Ireland. There is no Marie Stopes clinic in Ireland.
    And yes, it is a violation of bodily integrity to force a woman to remain pregnant against her wishes, at any stage of pregnancy. At 34 weeks any woman should be able to abort a pregnancy. Just not 'at the hands of an abortionist', but in a hospital, where the baby can receive the necessary care on delivery..
    Still no answer on the large number of abortions that take place before 34 weeks. Speaks volumes.


  • #1426
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    If the mother asks for the baby to be intentionally killed in the womb at 34 weeks, it is denied in many countries. Do you view this as acceptable?

    sw already very clearly stated that he agrees with abortion, up to the point where the foetus is viable.


  • #1427
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    You should try to actually read the posts.

    After 24 weeks - it is done for medical purposes. Rarely. Very bloody rarely.

    As to your hypothetical 34 week old foetus that has never fcuking happened - it would be aborted. Alive. Because it's completely viable.

    NO woman will wait til 34 weeks then decide to have an abortion.

    All you're doing here is presenting absolutely ridiculous scenarios so that when people respond, you can say "lol but you said you value bodily integrity, you're a liar."

    We see your agenda. Now please move on and speak about things that have a distinct possibility of happening.

    No one ifs forcing you to answer. It's ok.


  • #1428
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    sw already very clearly stated that he agrees with abortion, up to the point where the foetus is viable.

    And if the woman seeks her baby to be killed in the womb before delivery? Is refusal a denial of her bodily integrity?


  • #1429
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    K-9 wrote: »
    On the suicide thing, I just can't see how you can make a mother go the full term and give birth. Seriously conorh91, would you be comfortable with forcibly detaining a pregnant woman in a higher security psychiatric ward like that?
    There are plenty of clinical practices that occur in hospital settings which I'd find uncomfortable and harrowing. I'm not necessarily saying there should never be abortions in Irish hospitals, even in cases of suicidal intent. I have a fairly open mind on that, but at the moment I am concerned both about a lack of evidence, and the personal testimony of women who have regretted their decision to have an abortion, which in some cases they probably had no capacity to make.

    For example, I find it incredible that there is an Irishwoman only 7 years older than myself, who was taken to England by a social worker for an abortion she now regrets, and apparently spends every day grieving for. That woman, of course, is Miss C, who rarely gets a mention despite the trauma she apparently endures on a daily basis.

    I'm not trying to goad people into accepting my concerns lest they be daubed as sexist or fundamentalist, which unfortunately is what I see on this thread. I'm just asking people not to jump to conclusions, and to recognize the sincere concerns many ordinary, well-meaning, non-sexist irish people have about suicide, capacity and abortion.

    SW wrote: »
    Worth noting that all the doctors, with the exception of Dr King, are signatories of the Dublin Declaration and firmly in the pro-life camp.
    It's certainly worth mentioning, but I can understand their specific interest in responding to Amnsety, since they have been more vocal than other obstetricians, and are therefore in greater danger of having their reputations tarnished. For all we know, the more reticent obstetricians and gynecologists may be in agreement with them, because it's difficult to know what to make of the latter cohort's failure to either agree or to contradict.
    Black Menorca wrote: »
    It seems Rhona has so much time to advocate for a change to the Constitutional situation, one may wonder about her dedication to keeping her hospital clean and sterile.
    Although we share similar concerns about abortion, I have to say I find your comments about Dr Mahony inappropriate. Why are you referring to her by her first name, and harping back to how clean and untidy her hospital is?

    If I didn't give people the benefit of the doubt, I'd say there's a whiff of sexism off it.


  • #1430
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    If the mother asks for the baby to be intentionally killed in the womb at 34 weeks, it is denied in many countries. Do you view this as acceptable?
    My understanding is that the child would have to be delivered then killed to accomdate the woman. This is infanticide. It has a 98% chance of survival at that stage.

    How many cases have occurred though? Is it enough to warrant it being pushed to the front of the discussion regarding abortion? Surely the other 99.78% (DS abortions account for 0.22% of UK abortions, though we don't know if any are at the 34 week stage) of abortions are more relevant?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1431
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    And if the woman seeks her baby to be killed in the womb before delivery? Is refusal a denial of her bodily integrity?

    How would it be a denial of her bodily integrity? If the baby is delivered the mother has no obligations to it whatsoever. Miss Y never had any interest in the baby she delivered.

    Anyway, could you tell us which Marie Stopes clinics, in Ireland or elsewhere, agree to stop the foetus' heartbeat at 34 weeks and have it delivered by an abortionist?


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  • #1432
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    conorh91 wrote: »
    It's certainly worth mentioning, but I can understand their specific interest in responding to Amnsety, since they have been more vocal than other obstetricians, and are therefore in greater danger of having their reputations tarnished. For all we know, the more reticent obstetricians and gynecologists may be in agreement with them, because it's difficult to know what to make of the latter cohort's failure to either agree or to contradict.

    All we know is that a group of pro-life doctors objected to Amnestys report.

    As I said before, it would have more interesting if a non partisan group of doctors had signed the objection.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1433
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    My understanding is that the child would have to be delivered then killed to accomdate the woman. This is infanticide. It has a 98% chance of survival at that stage.

    How many cases have occurred though? Is it enough to warrant it being pushed to the front of the discussion regarding abortion? Surely the other 99.78% (DS abortions account for 0.22% of UK abortions, though we don't know if any are at the 34 week stage) of abortions are more relevant?

    You'd like to deflect on to other scenarios for sure. I don't blame you.

    Partial birth abortions. you know the ones. Where the baby's body is delivered apart from the head and the brain is suctioned out and the skull collapses.

    2,000 such procedures happen in America each year.

    Do you believe denying such a procedure is disrespecting the woman's wishes?


  • #1434
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    How would it be a denial of her bodily integrity? If the baby is delivered the mother has no obligations to it whatsoever. Miss Y never had any interest in the baby she delivered.

    Anyway, could you tell us which Marie Stopes clinics, in Ireland or elsewhere, agree to stop the foetus' heartbeat at 34 weeks and have it delivered by an abortionist?

    This is my hypothetical, that the abortion lobby here have been dancing around for three or four pages now.

    Very interesting to observe, my little experiment.


  • #1435
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    conorh91 wrote: »
    The
    Although we share similar concerns about abortion, I have to say I find your comments about Dr Mahony inappropriate. Why are you referring to her by her first name, and harping back to how clean and untidy her hospital is?

    If I didn't give people the benefit of the doubt, I'd say there's a whiff of sexism off it.

    Rhona should focus on day to day fundamentals, instead of shilling for repealing the 8th.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1212/666412-holles-street-rotunda/


  • #1436
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Very interesting to observe, my little experiment.

    I'm sure it's utterly fascinating to exactly one participant in the thread.

    To the rest of us, it's an exercise in watching you dishonestly pretend not to know the answers to your rather silly questions.


  • #1437
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm sure it's utterly fascinating to exactly one participant in the thread.

    To the rest of us, it's an exercise in watching you dishonestly pretend not to know the answers to your rather silly questions.

    But of course. :)


  • #1438
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    SW wrote: »
    As I said before, it would have more interesting if a non partisan group of doctors had signed the objection.
    Well I was more interested by this part of your statement: You are...
    ...skeptical of their claims since there aren't both pro-life and pro-choice (to avoid bias from one side or the other) doctors signing the letter.

    Firstly, we don't know that these doctors are pro-life. It is possible to reject a clinical reason for abortion whilst advancing an ethical basis for abortion (in fact, would not most pro-choice people reject a reliance on clinical approaches?)

    Secondly, I don't see how you can be skeptical without knowing whether the remaining members of their faculty agree or disagree with them. They are silent. No agreement, and no contradiction.


  • #1439
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    You'd like to deflect on to other scenarios for sure. I don't blame you.
    somewhat amusing comment considering we're discussing abortions that are purely hypothetical so far.
    Partial birth abortions. you know the ones. Where the baby's body is delivered apart from the head and the brain is suctioned out and the skull collapses.

    2,000 such procedures happen in America each year.

    Do you believe denying such a procedure is disrespecting the woman's wishes?

    Do you have a link to show that 2,000 late term abortions happen at 34 weeks each year in the US? All the stats I can find group all late terms as >20, >21 or >24.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1440
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still no direct answer. Why, I wonder.

    You lot dont like answering. Whats that about glass houses and stones?


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  • #1441
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Rhona should focus on day to day fundamentals, instead of shilling for repealing the 8th.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1212/666412-holles-street-rotunda/

    Similar issues at the Rotunda. What's your opinion of 'Sam'?


This discussion has been closed.
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