Cyclists should do a theory test!

Tony EH · 18-06-2015 12:25PM

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But that pisses off motorists as well!

:pac:

steamengine · 18-06-2015 12:36PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Because its non sensical, cars travel at far higher speeds, have motorways which have low accident rates which skew the stats dramatically. Either make the setting common i.e. urban comparison only, or make it with a more useful metric eg time spent, or if you insist on the per billion km, adapt it to common sense, taking into account the ability to travel that far, divide it by average speed (giggle, math win).

Well thats not a great start

Using your "evidence" I have found driving to be more dangerous, thats why we don't use anecdoetal evidence for policy, it is flawed.

They aren't though, they are a representation of the facts in a biased manner. Unless you compare cyclists and motorists in similar surrondings, therefore removing as much bias as possible, your stat falls apart. Motorists can cover huge distances by motorway, relatively safely, therefore disproportionately skewing the figures.

Did you read his conclusions? I don't like the page because I see flaws with the data from the outset and the way it is presented, but i do alot of stats work so maybe I am biased to pick out flaws with others work.
His conclusion states that walking is four times more dangerous than cycling but gives no regard as to why. Then he refers to drivers being the biggest source of danger to other road users and cites mobile phone use and a need for better planning, but never mentions these once before this point, its like reading tabloid journalism. He may be right, he might not but such a poorly thought out piece of drivel doesn't carry much weight with me. I don't know why you picked cyclinguphills website as a source, when he clearly just downloaded stats for pretty graphs, and even though they were flawed, he came up with a non conclusion that referred to things he never mentioned before. He will be writing for the red tops soon enough, I have no doubt.

The point is though, despite this minority, they are not doing much damage. Early education will take care of the majority of the next generation, enforcement will help the current road users.

Put up your alternative statistics then and let's take a look at them. Somehow I get the impression the Dept of Transport stats just don't suit the whiter than white image of cycling which you're trying to portray, but I could be wrong.

RainyDay · 18-06-2015 01:06PM

steamengine wrote: »

That statement is somewhat incorrect. We know from the stats and as previously posted that there were no cars involved in the case of two cyclists' fatalities. We don't know who's actually at fault for the rest of the cycling fatalities. If you keep saying therefore that motorists kill 200 people each year, when clearly they don't in some cases, then please excuse me from engaging in such a fruitless debating exercise.

I didn't see the comments you mention about two cyclists' fatalities. But this really is nitpicking. As I've pointed out before, even if you want to blame all 12 cyclists killed last year for their own demise, that leaves you with 180 or 190 deaths caused by motorists. It's the same issue. If you want me to say motorists kill about 180 or 190 people each year, will that make you happier, or more willing to do something about it?

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Again I come back to the point, you breaking the speed limit while driving are contributing to the likelihood of someone being hurt, including yourself

Would you come back to the question that I asked you, the one that you've evaded twice please? If I'm driving 51kmph in a 50kpmh zone, does that make me a dangerous driver - Yes or No?

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 01:16PM

Yes, in my opinion, anything over the prescribed recommended speed limit is dangerous, against the law and irresponsible.

I answered this in post 1165 (Below)

Going over that national roads authority 'recommended' speed limit in my honest opinion is a danger, you think not and that's your opinion.

You should stay on point here, there were other points that you didn't answer which you could address, as I am trying to gauge your opinion on this

Knasher · 18-06-2015 01:33PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

I agree with you on your last point but still hold firm on my belief that some form of theory test or as you mentioned introducing it into the school curriculum would benefit many cyclists and future motorists too!

Introducing it into the school curriculum would be a great idea, because even if somebody doesn't end up a cyclist, understanding what dangers other road users face and being able to predict how they should react to those dangers is beneficial, regardless of your vehicle.

If the point is only education, then I think we could all agree to that. But I strongly suspect that the motivation for a theory test has very little to do with education, and a hell of a lot to do with registration.

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 01:48PM

Yes Knasher I agree and the hope is it could reduce deaths and accidents, as mentioned most cyclists are motorists but the reverse is not always true so some form of education on it would be great giving people a greater insight to the dangers. Through this method some theory testing could be introduced.

I find it laughable that some people say its motorists who cause the majority of accidents, which based on the figures is true, yet in the same breath openly admit to not adhering to the speed limits on our roads by their own admission and in turn try to make the point that by me complying to the law, I am blinkered and again they are cyclists and point out driver error very often? Strange times.

Al_Goonie · 18-06-2015 01:49PM

I cycle to and from work most days, and yes, I break red lights but that's just because it's faster for me. The drivers are the one's who get in trouble if I'm hit so why worry? If anything the one's in cars should watch out for me because I'm forced to use the same roads as 1.5 tonnes of moving metal

CramCycle · 18-06-2015 01:57PM

steamengine wrote: »

Put up your alternative statistics then and let's take a look at them. Somehow I get the impression the Dept of Transport stats just don't suit the whiter than white image of cycling which you're trying to portray, but I could be wrong.

??? Its not whiter than white, in fact if you read my posts, you would find I pointed out there are probably as many dangerous and idiotic cyclists % wise as there are idiotic and dangerous motorists, forgetting the fact that the cyclist will probably only fatally injure themselves if reckless enough, whereas a motorist has the possibility of far greater damage.

I don't have the stats, they may change nothing, it could look the exact same, it could look better or worse for cyclists, my point was the metric given is flawed and misleading to those who may not be used to seeing misleading data to highlight something that isn't really there.

I suspect the metrics I gave would lead to motorists and cyclists being equivalent in terms of risk but I would need the average distance travelled, the typical number of motorists on the roads, the typical number of cyclists and then the number of fatal accidents in the area proscribed. The CSO would give indicative numbers for the first 3 and the AGS would have the last.

Without reasonable comparisons and reasonable metrics, it is a biased and unfair description to say any mode of transport is more dangerous than another without more intelligent data. You could compare motorcyclists and car drivers, maybe, but I don't know if there is a bias of a large or small number of motorcylists to use other transport alternatives for long journeys.

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Going over that national roads authority 'recommended' speed limit in my honest opinion is a danger, you think not and that's your opinion.

And there are several times where the national roads authority have prescribed speed limits that are unsafe if you were to travel at them. One of the key safety tenants of driving is to drive at the speed that is safe to do so for both you, other road users you can see and other potential road users you might not.

Blind bend, slow down, even if you know it because there could be a broken down vehicle. On a motorway, do not slow down to much as it is not expected and endangers road users trying to merge. Make sure you can stop in the space of road you can see in front of you that is clear.

Knasher wrote: »

Introducing it into the school curriculum would be a great idea, because even if somebody doesn't end up a cyclist, understanding what dangers other road users face and being able to predict how they should react to those dangers is beneficial, regardless of your vehicle.

+1 this is where policy should be driven

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 02:04PM

And there are several times where the national roads authority have prescribed speed limits that are unsafe if you were to travel at them. One of the key safety tenants of driving is to drive at the speed that is safe to do so for both you, other road users you can see and other potential road users you might not.

Agreed, but staying within the limit is the law, at the end of the day as Mr Keane would say.

Blind bend, slow down, even if you know it because there could be a broken down vehicle. On a motorway, do not slow down to much as it is not expected and endangers road users trying to merge. Make sure you can stop in the space of road you can see in front of you that is clear.

I agree with what you have written, the speed limit is set for all road users safety and at times it is discretionary to reduce speed but not to go over the limit, back roads set for 80KMH are a prime example.

Knasher · 18-06-2015 02:24PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Yes Knasher I agree and the hope is it could reduce deaths and accidents, as mentioned most cyclists are motorists but the reverse is not always true so some form of education on it would be great giving people a greater insight to the dangers. Through this method some theory testing could be introduced.

Why a theory test instead of something in secondary schools? I've outlined why I think doing it in secondary schools would be better, but clearly you lean towards the theory test. Which would have the obvious effect of dis-encouraging cycling in general. Given that, I'm sure there is a good reason why you favor it, I just can't see why.

Jawgap · 18-06-2015 02:27PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Yes Knasher I agree and the hope is it could reduce deaths and accidents, as mentioned most cyclists are motorists but the reverse is not always true so some form of education on it would be great giving people a greater insight to the dangers. Through this method some theory testing could be introduced.

I find it laughable that some people say its motorists who cause the majority of accidents, which based on the figures is true, yet in the same breath openly admit to not adhering to the speed limits on our roads by their own admission and in turn try to make the point that by me complying to the law, I am blinkered and again they are cyclists and point out driver error very often? Strange times.

So theory tests have been useful in encouraging motorists and drivers to adhere to speed limits?

the 'they' you are referring do are often both cyclists and drivers, and, I'll wager' occasionally pedestrians too

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 02:45PM

Knasher wrote: »

Why a theory test instead of something in secondary schools? I've outlined why I think doing it in secondary schools would be better, but clearly you lean towards the theory test. Which would have the obvious effect of dis-encouraging cycling in general. Given that, I'm sure there is a good reason why you favor it, I just can't see why.

I should have been clearer, a theory test in school

steamengine · 18-06-2015 02:46PM

CramCycle wrote: »

??? Its not whiter than white, in fact if you read my posts, you would find I pointed out there are probably as many dangerous and idiotic cyclists % wise as there are idiotic and dangerous motorists, forgetting the fact that the cyclist will probably only fatally injure themselves if reckless enough, whereas a motorist has the possibility of far greater damage.

I don't have the stats, they may change nothing, it could look the exact same, it could look better or worse for cyclists, my point was the metric given is flawed and misleading to those who may not be used to seeing misleading data to highlight something that isn't really there.

I suspect the metrics I gave would lead to motorists and cyclists being equivalent in terms of risk but I would need the average distance travelled, the typical number of motorists on the roads, the typical number of cyclists and then the number of fatal accidents in the area proscribed. The CSO would give indicative numbers for the first 3 and the AGS would have the last.

Without reasonable comparisons and reasonable metrics, it is a biased and unfair description to say any mode of transport is more dangerous than another without more intelligent data. You could compare motorcyclists and car drivers, maybe, but I don't know if there is a bias of a large or small number of motorcylists to use other transport alternatives for long journeys.

Ok, we're kinda getting somewhere now. Equal risk indicates equal fatality rates which in turn should warrant equal attention to corrective action for cyclists as well as motorists. The only saving grace for cyclists is there are not as many equivalent bike journeys as there are car journeys, otherwise with the same attrition rate the yearly total would be a hundred or so too.

It's not biased to compare modes safety wise and the distance stat is well recognised - Air travel is constantly being quoted as being the safest, motorcycling the least safe along with private flying as in light aircraft. 30mph is not an uncommon speed for very fit cyclists and on boards, they often recall with relish their long spins, 100km or so no problem. What's the difference between that and a Vespa scooter ? Very little I would say, except the Vespa rider wears a helmet, uses mirrors and a horn. I understand some of these racing bicycles don't even require or have a bell ! Tut Tut safety - plenty of room for improvement methinks.

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 02:47PM

Jawgap wrote: »

So theory tests have been useful in encouraging motorists and drivers to adhere to speed limits?

Where did I say that? Did the test make them aware of speed limits?

the 'they' you are referring do are often both cyclists and drivers, and, I'll wager' occasionally pedestrians too

Right, not really getting your point there?

TheDoc · 18-06-2015 02:55PM

I don't see how a Cyclist theory test would help. As a recently promoted driver (got my theory about five year ago) I'm absolutely shocked at the state of road users, and it's not isolated incidents, it's so frequent.

When I worked in city centre I'd see the best and worst of cyclists and motorists every day. Now as my commute is M50 out and back, it's all drivers I deal with.

I don't see how a theory test will improve things with cyclists, since it does **** all for drivers. A random selection of questions from a possible few hundred? My theory test was mostly road signs and questions about agricultural machinery, literally nothing about urban driving. I was answering questions on tractors, that I'll never drive in my entire life.

I took driving lessons from day one, for 12 weeks, and it was a sound investment. I don't have any bad habbits, sure I make mistakes, everyone make mistakes, but I don't so some of the horrendously bad **** I see people do.

I'm absolutely dumbfounded at the amount of accidents on the M50 on a weekly basis, and the amount of people totally oblivious about how to drive on a motorway, yet this is excluded from the theory and practical test, and learners are not permitted to use a motorway.

Calling for cyclists to get a theory test is somehow indicating the one for drivers is relevant and promotes good practice, which it certainly doesn't.

Jawgap · 18-06-2015 03:07PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Right, not really getting your point there?

That theory tests are not much more than useless - especially in the current form where they are multiple-choice that can be just dealt with by rote learning. Passing one doesn't mean you are a better driver - it just means you could memorise more stuff.

Like the driving test itself - you are not testing someone's ability as a driver you are testing to see if they have the spatial awareness and motor skills necessary to operate a piece of machinery.

We still have the ludicrous position that my teenage son can pass his test, wear his N plate, not drive anything for two years then hop in into a tail-happy Porsche 930 and go for a spin (literally, I'd say, in his case).

As for theory tests in school? The curriculum is already crowded enough.

I'm all for more education of kids in how to use the roads safely and responsibly either as pedestrians or cyclists are part of their optional progression to becoming drivers, but the notion they should be tested is way OTT.

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 03:15PM

Jawgap wrote: »

That theory tests are not much more than useless - especially in the current form where they are multiple-choice that can be just dealt with by rote learning. Passing one doesn't mean you are a better driver - it just means you could memorise more stuff.

Like the driving test itself - you are not testing someone's ability as a driver you are testing to see if they have the spatial awareness and motor skills necessary to operate a piece of machinery.

We still have the ludicrous position that my teenage son can pass his test, wear his N plate, not drive anything for two years then hop in into a tail-happy Porsche 930 and go for a spin (literally, I'd say, in his case).

As for theory tests in school? The curriculum is already crowded enough.

I'm all for more education of kids in how to use the roads safely and responsibly either as pedestrians or cyclists are part of their optional progression to becoming drivers, but the notion they should be tested is way OTT.

1. Did your son in the process of studying for this exam become aware of the rules of the road?

2. On your second point I would not entirely agree with that, you are tested on signaling, motion and various other driving skills and abilities.

3. Prior to the N plate he wouldn't have to wait two years!!!

4. I am a teacher and with short courses becoming available to schools its a big possibility. It could also tie in with subjects such as CSPE, SPHE, it could be a transition year module etc, so there is room for it.

RainyDay · 18-06-2015 03:21PM

steamengine wrote: »

It's not biased to compare modes safety wise and the distance stat is well recognised - Air travel is constantly being quoted as being the safest, motorcycling the least safe along with private flying as in light aircraft. 30mph is not an uncommon speed for very fit cyclists and on boards, they often recall with relish their long spins, 100km or so no problem. What's the difference between that and a Vespa scooter ? Very little I would say, except the Vespa rider wears a helmet, uses mirrors and a horn. I understand some of these racing bicycles don't even require or have a bell ! Tut Tut safety - plenty of room for improvement methinks.

Genius solution - 200 people getting killed by motorists each year, and you want to put bells on racing bikes.

Dr Crippen wrote: »

I find it laughable that some people say its motorists who cause the majority of accidents, which based on the figures is true, yet in the same breath openly admit to not adhering to the speed limits on our roads by their own admission and in turn try to make the point that by me complying to the law, I am blinkered and again they are cyclists and point out driver error very often? Strange times.

I find it laughable that some people pretend that they never break a speed limit. I don't point out 'driver error' very often, as in pedantic errors. I point out dangerous driving. If you can't see the difference, you're not a very good driver.

Jawgap · 18-06-2015 03:23PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

1. Did your son in the process of studying for this exam become aware of the rules of the road?

2. On your second point I would not entirely agree with that, you are tested on signaling, motion and various other driving skills and abilities.

3. Prior to the N plate he wouldn't have to wait two years!!!

4. I am a teacher and with short courses becoming available to schools its a big possibility. It could also tie in with subjects such as CSPE, SPHE, it could be a transition year module etc, so there is room for it.

Awareness of the RotR is not the same as being perceptive when it comes to hazard identifiecation - a theory test may well encourage, even require, people to become aware of certain elements of the RotR (namely those bits covered in the test) but it will not, imo, make them measurably better drivers.

Consequently, there is nothing to suggest that a theory test for cyclists would make them any better cyclists. The introduction of such a test may make a few drivers feel a bit better but it won't do much beyond that.

MadDog76 · 18-06-2015 03:24PM

rubadub wrote: »

hahahaa, what a pathetically cheap copout!

It's like the hypocrites in threads about illegal recerational drugs who go mental when people remind them that alcohol is a harmful recreational drug. Repeatedly saying "this discussion is about illegal drugs" when people have been discussing legal ones right from the start.

People ARE discussing other road users in this and most cycling threads, with very good reason, dunno if these people moaning are blind to the fact. Idiots in denial saying there is no discussion about motorists, it's an embarrassing tactic.

I said before it'd be like a thread "why do women have affairs, why is this? I really have no clue" and someone saying "eh men do too, nothing unsual" -"shut up you, this is about women".

Hahahahaha!!!!!

Recreational drug use is different to recreational alcohol drinking ....... although one can do both.

Motorists and cyclists are different .......... although one can be both.

Women and Men are completely different ........... anybody who says they are the same is a half-wit ......... unless it's Caitlyn Jenner!!

Hahahahahaha :rolleyes:

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 03:27PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Genius solution - 200 people getting killed by motorists each year, and you want to put bells on racing bikes.

I find it laughable that some people pretend that they never break a speed limit. I don't point out 'driver error' very often, as in pedantic errors. I point out dangerous driving. If you can't see the difference, you're not a very good driver.

Unfortunately I am not pretending, when you have dependents in the car with you, I become more attentive and aware and adhere to the rules of the road.

But you, complain about drivers breaking lights, record it even! and then have the nerve to admit to driving over the speed limit and try to justify it?

I am a very good driver thank you and an excellent cyclist

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 03:29PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Awareness of the RotR is not the same as being perceptive when it comes to hazard identifiecation - a theory test may well encourage, even require, people to become aware of certain elements of the RotR (namely those bits covered in the test) but it will not, imo, make them measurably better drivers.

True, but it goes a way, what would you recommend as an alternative?

Consequently, there is nothing to suggest that a theory test for cyclists would make them any better cyclists. The introduction of such a test may make a few drivers feel a bit better but it won't do much beyond that.

No but it could save some lives, is that worth anything?

TheDoc · 18-06-2015 03:31PM

Jawgap wrote: »

We still have the ludicrous position that my teenage son can pass his test, wear his N plate, not drive anything for two years then hop in into a tail-happy Porsche 930 and go for a spin (literally, I'd say, in his case).

What do you mean here?

The N plate has no restrictions on driving compared to a full license driver.

There is no requirement for novice drivers to have an accompanying driver – this is still only the case for learner drivers. However, a novice driver may not act as an accompanying driver for someone who holds a learner permit

The insurance and associated costs would be enough to put most people of driving the likes of a Porsche in the scenario above, but those with the means I'm sure could do it if they wanted.

Not getting what is ludicrous about it. We have a system by you pass once and that's it you have a license for life. Maybe I could see the grounds for being re-tested every X years, but I had my license a year, completed a 12 week driving course and an advanced driving course, before I even owned a car to drive regularly.

Jawgap · 18-06-2015 03:35PM

Dr Crippen wrote: »

No but it could save some lives, is that worth anything?

What evidence is there that it will save lives?

If anything it will cost lives, because it will dissuade people from cycling by introducing a barrier - cycling is a useful activity easily incorporated into lifestyles. It helps promote a degree of fitness, is largely unpolluting and is quite low in terms of environmental impact.

If someone is put off cycling because of a test - or other 'barrier' - or because something communicates an idea that cycling is less safe than it actually is, and that person drives more than they otherwise would - is that a positive move?

And even if the idea of test was a good idea was a good one, in principle - how would you enforce it? Would an hour of Garda time be better spent checking cyclists to see if they have their test done or carrying out speed checks?

steamengine · 18-06-2015 03:37PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Genius solution - 200 people getting killed by motorists each year, and you want to put bells on racing bikes.

I find it laughable that some people pretend that they never break a speed limit. I don't point out 'driver error' very often, as in pedantic errors. I point out dangerous driving. If you can't see the difference, you're not a very good driver.

Hello Polly !

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 03:40PM

Jawgap wrote: »

What evidence is there that it will save lives?

If anything it will cost lives, because it will dissuade people from cycling by introducing a barrier - cycling is a useful activity easily incorporated into lifestyles. It helps promote a degree of fitness, is largely unpolluting and is quite low in terms of environmental impact.

So again, by your statement can you answer me the following:

1. If you believe a theory test will not save lives and it will cost lives, why is there a driver theory test and do you feel this is useless.

2. Have you any evidence that a bicycle theory test will cost lives and could you explain to me how this would occur?

Jawgap · 18-06-2015 03:45PM

TheDoc wrote: »

What do you mean here?

The N plate has no restrictions on driving compared to a full license driver.

The insurance and associated costs would be enough to put most people of driving the likes of a Porsche in the scenario above, but those with the means I'm sure could do it if they wanted.

Not getting what is ludicrous about it. We have a system by you pass once and that's it you have a license for life. Maybe I could see the grounds for being re-tested every X years, but I had my license a year, completed a 12 week driving course and an advanced driving course, before I even owned a car to drive regularly.

the point being that after 2 years someone who has actually driven for 2 years will be a better driver than someone who just kicked their heels for two years. If the N plate was supposed to help drivers mature, it's a crude response.

The point being the system tests a very specific set of competencies few of which relate to driving, many of which relate to operating a motor car.

The theory test sounds good, looks good - but in reality it's just window dressing. Marginally better than what went before

If we were really interested in turning out better drivers we'd making wider use of technology and progressive training and assessment.

Dr Crippen · 18-06-2015 03:50PM

Jawgap wrote: »

the point being that after 2 years someone who has actually driven for 2 years will be a better driver than someone who just kicked their heels for two years. If the N plate was supposed to help drivers mature, it's a crude response.

The point being the system tests a very specific set of competencies few of which relate to driving, many of which relate to operating a motor car.

The theory test sounds good, looks good - but in reality it's just window dressing. Marginally better than what went before

If we were really interested in turning out better drivers we'd making wider use of technology and progressive training and assessment.

Go on, this could be applied to cyclists too,no?

steamengine · 18-06-2015 03:50PM

Tony EH wrote: »

/\

But that pisses off motorists as well!

:pac:

Better a pissed off motorist than a dead cyclist

The Dogs Bollix · 18-06-2015 03:50PM

omicron wrote: »

A lot of drivers have no concept of the rules of the road and are getting more and more agressive. There acting like they have the right of way the whole time, weaving in and out of traffic, breaking red lights, not adhering and not looking for possible dangers ahead. Stricter and harsher penalties are needed for them. A piece of advice playing chicken with cars will not work well in the long run for ye. Should be made do some sort of simulation test or something. They are some decent cyclists but most are idiots.

A lot of pedestrians have no concept of the rules of the road and are getting more and more agressive. There acting like they have the right of way the whole time, weaving in and out of traffic, breaking red lights, not adhering and not looking for possible dangers ahead. Stricter and harsher penalties are needed for them. A piece of advice playing chicken with cars will not work well in the long run for ye. Should be made do some sort of simulation test or something. They are some decent cyclists but most are idiots.

Idiots are idiots regardless of their mode of transport.

I agree with this.

I used to be an idiot as a pedestrian. Used to jay walk and cross the road anywhere. Until I started driving. Its very stressful as a learner driver to stop and go, stop and go due to loads of pedestrians zig zagging in and out of traffic.

I must be the only person to wait for a green man at the lights now.

I don't cycle but I presume the rules of the road is the same as a driver except you're on a bicycle and you wouldn't be allowed on motorways and you would be mad to cycle Dublin.

Its all about observation. Observation for idiots. Observation for pedestrian idiots who zig zag out in front and behind you. Observation as a cyclist for parked cars and their doors flying open. And observation as a pedestrian in case you get mowed down.

Cyclists should do a theory test!

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