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Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Open AND Interdepartmental Assistant Principal Comp for Civil Service just announced

  • 29-05-2015 12:16PM
    #1
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,229 ✭✭✭


    Thought it best to start a new thread rather than use the old one given that the competition is also an Interdepartmental one, not just Open.

    Best of luck everyone, completing these forms and interviews etc... are going to be a nightmare!

    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/19358.htm


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Comments

  • #2
    mozattack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭mozattack


    Hi. Is this definitely and open competition? I have been emailed it at work but it says I need two years experience as a civil servant prior to applying?


  • #3
    Larry Bee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 200 ✭✭Larry Bee


    Hi Mozattack,

    There are tick boxes on the application where you can state if you are applying for the Assistant Principal job, and another if you wish to apply for the Assistant Principal interdepartmental job. For this part of it, you would have to have the 2 years, but no such requirement is in place for the open competition.


  • #4
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    mozattack wrote: »
    it says I need two years experience as a civil servant prior to applying?

    This is standard for interdepartmental competitions. As per above- no such rule applies for the open competitions.


  • #5
    Gest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭Gest


    I wonder how many will go for this both internally and externally? Is there many positions available?


  • #6
    Slydice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice


    I can't remember where I got this into my head but for some reason I think 4 out of every 5 are internal?

    Doesn't sound right when I think about it now though.


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  • #7
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Slydice wrote: »
    I can't remember where I got this into my head but for some reason I think 4 out of every 5 are internal?

    Doesn't sound right when I think about it now though.

    Its the figure someone from Personnel came up with. Apparently DPER conceded it- they had originally wanted 100% external, Management came back with a 60% proposal- and when the unions demurred, DPER rolled over and came back with 20%........

    How many posts are there?
    Depends entirely on who you ask.
    Arguably there is a far bigger deficit of HEOs/EOs- than there are APs. Most of the larger Departments have recently (as in the last 18 months) held internal AP competitions- the panels of which are now almost all exhausted.
    A few have separate internal competitions chugging along at this stage- exclusive of this competition altogether.

    All-in-all- the argument is that an external AP- could have 30-40 people under him- most of whom would have been in the civil service for protracted periods of time- and for someone with no knowledge of the civil service, how it works, culture, politics etc- to take on 30-40 staff members- could be extremely disruptive. Ideally- these people would come in as AOs for 2-3 years, work in a few different policy roles- and then- the better of them would get AP through competitive internal competitions.

    This is also totally aside from the simple fact- that you'd be alienating the pre-existing staff- who would have no promotional route open to them........


  • #8
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,015 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    ...for someone with no knowledge of the civil service, how it works, culture, politics etc- to take on 30-40 staff members- could be extremely disruptive.

    There is one school of thought which says that just this sort of extreme disruption is what some government agencies need! :-)

    Long, long ago in a country far far away, I worked for just such a manager (came to the public sector from the equivalent of The Tote). There were some "interesting" moments. But he certainly cut through the public-sector BS very effectively.


  • #9
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Anyone else drawing a blank with their 500 word essay on why they want to an AP? I spent a few hours filling out the rest of the form- and then came to this....... I'm shattered- think I'll look at it again tomorrow........


  • #10
    Aglomerado
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Aglomerado


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Anyone else drawing a blank with their 500 word essay on why they want to an AP? I spent a few hours filling out the rest of the form- and then came to this....... I'm shattered- think I'll look at it again tomorrow........

    Yeah it's not easy. It annoys me having to fill in this beastly form and I may not even make it past the first stage of the selection tests!


  • #11
    Bobby04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭Bobby04


    I submitted an application for this today for the hell of it - no idea how I'll get on, but one way to find out....

    I've found the whole application form a nightmare to fill out. The <500 essay I actually found pretty ok to do, but what killed me for the past couple of weeks was the feeling that for each of the 4 main Key Achievements, each of my examples could easily be tailored to any of the 4. Anyone having that difficulty? And then moving on to the 2 extra questions, I found myself again having to reword/rethink many times to avoid a near word for word reproduction of parts of the 4 main questions :o
    And what's the Supplementary info meant to capture that you haven't already covered??

    Anyway I didn't post here just to rant - has anyone got any links to sample assessment tests that might help in preparation for (the off chance!) of an online assessment?

    Finally, good luck to everyone going for this.


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  • #12
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I'm guessing that the numbers going for this- will be significantly lower than they might otherwise be- purely because they have made the application form itself, a complete endurance test.......


  • #13
    Aglomerado
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Aglomerado


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    I'm guessing that the numbers going for this- will be significantly lower than they might otherwise be- purely because they have made the application form itself, a complete endurance test.......

    We had an internal HEO competition in my department last year using a similar methodology!!! :D


  • #14
    Bobby04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭Bobby04


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    I'm guessing that the numbers going for this- will be significantly lower than they might otherwise be- purely because they have made the application form itself, a complete endurance test.......

    Quite possibly, and I'm also hoping the numbers from the private sector will be low based on the impression that if you meet all the criteria, you're probably earning way more than the entry level for this.


  • #15
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Salary scale:

    €65,000 €65,000 €66,040 €68,262 €70,479 €71,758 €73,995A €76,224B

    *A (after 3 years on the max point)
    *B (after 6 years on the max point)

    I.e. 12 years to max of scale.


  • #16
    glasagusban
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 819 ✭✭✭glasagusban


    People management, budget management, and change management going to be particularly difficult for most at HEO/AO level to satisfy. A little unfair as questions in addition to the standard competencies I think.


  • #17
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    glasagusban wrote: »
    People management, budget management, and change management going to be particularly difficult for most at HEO/AO level to satisfy. A little unfair as questions in addition to the standard competencies I think.

    There are a significant number of EOs going for it too.........
    Examples from outside of work- are probably going to swing it for most EOs/HEOs/AOs etc

    Its one hell of a tough application form.........


  • #18
    glasagusban
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 819 ✭✭✭glasagusban


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    There are a significant number of EOs going for it too.........
    Examples from outside of work- are probably going to swing it for most EOs/HEOs/AOs etc

    Its one hell of a tough application form.........
    Of course, no doubt some will get it. But I'm pointing out the difficulty(/unfairness) in the question where most at the grade immediately below won't have the opportunity to do that type of work. In fact, many AP's won't have anything to with that type of work either, hard to see why they had to add it in and couldn't have drawn out those aspects through questioning on the standard competencies.


  • #19
    Omnishambles99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Omnishambles99


    Never mind the first secretary part of this comp.... Which very few none existing dFA types have a hope of getting I would say ... Arguably


  • #20
    mozattack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭mozattack


    I actually prefer this form to other ones I have completed; it gave me the option to include achievements etc outside of the four examples unlike other APs applications where you 'just' need five good examples. Five examples is all...utter crap.

    Anyway, I will lob it in and if I get through I only discovered that there are online tests and my holiday destination has no real internet connection.

    Destiny


  • #21
    Bobby04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭Bobby04


    glasagusban wrote: »
    People management, budget management, and change management going to be particularly difficult for most at HEO/AO level to satisfy. A little unfair as questions in addition to the standard competencies I think.

    I'm so glad to hear I'm not alone in thinking just that, and yet as pointed out, many EO's are going for it, and yeah, some will surely get it, but surely not from civil service experience??

    I think that like any job opportunity, you'll get applicants who are delusional about their own abilities and/or experience, some who just chance their arm, some brimming with confidence and full of BS, etc. etc. I'd like to think the difficult early stages will weed out some of those who least deserve it.

    As to where I fit into the list above....:confused:


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  • #22
    midsummer21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭midsummer21


    Hi

    Those who are filling out the forms are ye using very specific examples for the competencies or just an overview of an example. I'm thinking of a few under each heading but brief examples

    Thanks


  • #23
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    midsummer21 wrote: »
    Hi

    Those who are filling out the forms are ye using very specific examples for the competencies or just an overview of an example. I'm thinking of a few under each heading but brief examples

    Thanks

    Single example to demonstrate the competency (keeping another example in reserve- as often on the day they ask for a second/different one). Its not a shopping list- its a single activity you were involved in which demonstrates, without incontrovertibly your ability to deliver under that heading........

    A series of smaller items- is a scatter gun approach- in the hope that one or more of those you're offering up on a plate tick a box on the interviewers checklist. It won't end well........


  • #24
    midsummer21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭midsummer21


    Thanks for that. That is my approach but just concerned that one example might not meet all of the definitions under the competency heading and be knocked out at shortlisting stage if was lucky enough to pass online test. It's a lot of effort at this stage of the process.


  • #25
    glasagusban
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 819 ✭✭✭glasagusban


    midsummer21 wrote: »
    Thanks for that. That is my approach but just concerned that one example might not meet all of the definitions under the competency heading and be knocked out at shortlisting stage if was lucky enough to pass online test. It's a lot of effort at this stage of the process.

    If one doesn't nail it then there's nothing wrong with a few brief examples.


  • #26
    Omnishambles99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Omnishambles99


    Deadline is tonight midnight ... Or tomorrow night midnight? (excuse the supremely silly question!)


  • #27
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Submitted. For better or for worse.......


  • #28
    midsummer21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 ✭midsummer21


    Omnishambles99 wrote: »
    Deadline is tonight midnight ... Or tomorrow night midnight? (excuse the supremely silly question!)

    Closing is midnight on 18th june


  • #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    glasagusban wrote: »
    People management, budget management, and change management going to be particularly difficult for most at HEO/AO level to satisfy. A little unfair as questions in addition to the standard competencies I think.

    I'm a heo and fair enough on budget but people and change management are daily asks in my role


  • #30
    mozattack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭mozattack


    Do all applicants get picked to do the second phase, the test?

    How long is that test? I could be away for the whole period and internet access on a PC will be hard to get. :(


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  • #31
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    mozattack wrote: »
    Do all applicants get picked to do the second phase, the test?

    How long is that test? I could be away for the whole period and internet access on a PC will be hard to get. :(

    Whats happened in other recent tests-

    Normally- its apply (aka fill in that monstrous document).
    Everyone gets invited to the online knock-out competition based on work skills.
    Top cohort- say top 30% though who knows- get the general online test.
    Select cohort (perhaps the top 20%) get called to supervised calibration test.
    Those whose scores differ by less than 15% go through to interview.

    By the way- annecdotally- there could well be as many EOs going for this- as AOs and HEOs combined. Any of my colleagues I've spoken to are all using examples from out of work (alongside a few work examples- where they have them). If even a small handfull get through to interview- the interviewers are so going to hate the GAA- who seem to feature in the vast preponderance of these examples..........


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