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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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Comments

  • #602
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,994 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    stinkle wrote: »
    He clearly doesn't, as its a term I used in the post he quoted and is parroting back. I used it in relation to labour and pregnancy and the toll they take on the female anatomy. Is there a reason you're attacking me and not my posts BTW? I've gone to the bother of using correct terminology and reason

    Goodness, I'm not "attacking" you.

    You come across sharper than you realise perhaps. Correcting people's mistakes by barking "do you understand that word,look it up" when its a simple mistake and your above comment on it seem very unnecessary,I don't like seeing other people being treated like that so I pointed it out. I didn't attack you. Your tone is unpleasant though and maybe takes away from what you're saying.


  • #603
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    stinkle wrote: »
    He clearly doesn't, as its a term I used in the post he quoted and is parroting back. I used it in relation to labour and pregnancy and the toll they take on the female anatomy. Is there a reason you're attacking me and not my posts BTW? I've gone to the bother of using correct terminology and reason

    Well actually I've replied to about 100 posts in quick succession and was getting a bit tired, read your post quickly and obviously read it wrong, typed out what you had typed from a glance as I was more concerned about the point I was making rather than the spelling


  • #604
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    inocybe wrote: »
    Your reaction is strange. How is causing a miscarriage by an invasive test any different from an abortion?

    It's not different - though you said a possibility, not a certainty. I was just unaware that DNA tests could be made that early.

    Could the putative father be forced against his will to give a DNA sample in this hypothetical situation, I wonder?


  • #605
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    Goodness, I'm not "attacking" you.

    You come across sharper than you realise perhaps. Correcting people's mistakes by barking "do you understand that word,look it up" when its a simple mistake and your above comment on it seem very unnecessary,I don't like seeing other people being treated like that so I pointed it out. I didn't attack you. Your tone is unpleasant though and maybe takes away from what you're saying.

    "Attack the post, not the poster" is a common enough comment - constantly picking on anyone's "tone" (in a written context) strikes me as a red herring and a way to evade questions and valid comments they are making. I've gone to the trouble of using scientific terminology and reason, as well as reading posts properly before I quote them or reply, so it gets a bit frustrating when the same courtesy isn't extended. Especially when trying to reason with some frankly ridiculous emotive codswallop in relation to both abortion in Ireland and women's rights. As a woman who is a second class citizen in her own country it's important to me to bring the actual facts of this issue to the fore and to expose ridiculous lies for what they are.


  • #606
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Sorry read it as psychological. Does a man's psychological well being not count either though? We hear enough about the psychological issues woman face, never a lot about the man

    Just seeing your reply there. In the context of pregnancy then no, a man's psychological wellbeing isn't really relevant. Men can't get pregnant. Men have the option of walking away without thinking twice about it. Pregnancy is 9 months of constant, drastic changes to the female anatomy and is controlled by hormones. Hormones can seriously affect mental health, and the physical changes brought on by the pregnancy can also affect this. Issues that arise during delivery can also impact women afterwards, and I already mentioned post-natal depression.

    The reason we "hear enough about the issues women face" is because it's a women's issue. It's that simple. Obviously it's great when men are keen to become fathers and of course they can be devastated in cases of miscarriage, stillbirths, fatal foetal abnormalities and abortion. But in a situation where an unplanned pregnancy arises within an established relationship and the couple are discordant about how to proceed, maybe they weren't a good match in the first place, especially if they weren't mature enough to be able to communicate their values to each other. No one would force the woman to have an abortion if that wasn't what she wanted, and conversely, no one should force her to continue the pregnancy if that's not what she wants. And any man who would try to force the situation one way or another should probably re-think the relationship and his views on women.


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  • #607
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Sorry read it as psychological. Does a man's psychological well being not count either though? We hear enough about the psychological issues woman face, never a lot about the man
    While I agree that a man can certainly be psychologically affected by a woman terminating a pregnancy when he wants to keep the baby which do you think is more psychologically damaging: the effect on a man of an unwanted (by him) abortion, or the effect on a woman being forced to carry a pregnancy and give birth against her will?


  • #608
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    I don't believe that any woman decides to have one lightly,and some do so absolutely heartbrokenly.
    In fairness, while I doubt many would, some do. I knew one in college who was quite blase about it and had two during her time studying.

    I'm sure that her attitude was probably uncommon, but to presume that the experience of abortion is the same for everyone would be mistaken.


  • #609
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    stinkle wrote: »
    Men have the option of walking away without thinking twice about it.
    Sorry, but that is not only factually incorrect, but misandrist crap.


  • #610
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    There is no equality when you're talking about something like bodily integrity. I know we want everything to be exactly equal between the sexes but there can never be equality when one person has the sole physical burden. The baby may be 50% the fathers but the woman's body isn't and if she wants to have an abortion no one should be able to force her to remain pregnant against her will. Just think about it in practice, it would put women under the complete control of men, it would make all women of child bearing age more vulnerable than they already are. And let's give men a bit of credit, I don't think there are many men who would want to be responsible for a enforced pregnancy, no matter how much they wanted the child.


  • #611
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eviltwin wrote: »
    There is no equality when you're talking about something like bodily integrity.
    Who's talking about equality? When someone has so much contempt for half of the population that they damn them as being able to walk away "without thinking twice about it" - which is nonsense even if we wanted to be able to do that - it says more about the person with such opinions. It's disgusting.


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  • #612
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

    How can you, of all people, be "on the fence" there?

    You've stated very clearly that you think that abortion is "murder". Your words not mine.

    But in a rape case you are "on the fence" on murdering the unborn baby?

    Your own arguments work against you here. You state that abortion is murder but if a rape victim is pregnant you might be on board with murdering the baby?

    How do you reconcile these 2 things? In both cases the "baby" is real and so in both cases the baby must have the same rights? Yet you are "on the fence" regarding murder (again, your words not mine) of one of these "unborn babies"? So the "unborn child" has different rights depending on the circumstances of conception? Circumstances that it has no control over.

    You are all over the place.

    Either retract what you said about abortion being murder or retract your statement about being on the fence. You can't have it both ways.


  • #613
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Who's talking about equality? When someone has so much contempt for half of the population that they damn them as being able to walk away "without thinking twice about it" - which is nonsense even if we wanted to be able to do that - it says more about the person with such opinions. It's disgusting.

    Oh come off it. There is no equality when you're pregnant. My husband did not suffer any side effects from my pregnancies, he didn't have to have the c sections, he didn't have the physical effects of being pregnant and giving birth and the recovery afterwards.

    This kind of 'what about the men, why does NO ONE THINK ABOUT THE MEN WHEN WOMEN WANT ACCESS TO ABORTION' crap is ridiculous. When men can get pregnant, then they can have the final say on whether abortion is the right choice for them. What say, exactly, should a man have in a woman's pregnancy and how, if she wants an abortion but he doesn't, can and should those choices be reconciled, do you think?


  • #614
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,172 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    stinkle wrote: »
    And if the man is a rapist? Or isn't around anymore to ask? Would you be ok with your girlfriend making decisions about your body without your agreement?

    Or if they're a misogynistic religious nut...


  • #615
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    lazygal wrote: »
    Oh come off it. There is no equality when you're pregnant.
    Again, who mentioned equality?

    What I responded to was this BS about "without thinking twice about it", which is both factually false and as bigoted as you can get. Or would you like to defend what she wrote?
    This kind of 'what about the men, why does NO ONE THINK ABOUT THE MEN WHEN WOMEN WANT ACCESS TO ABORTION' crap is ridiculous.
    And this kind of it doesn't affect men at all crap is equally ridiculous. Go make your babies on your own if we're so irrelevant.


  • #616
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Again, who mentioned equality?

    What I responded to was this BS about "without thinking twice about it", which is both factually false and as bigoted as you can get. Or would you like to defend what she wrote?

    And this kind of it doesn't affect men at all crap is equally ridiculous. Go make your babies on your own if we're so irrelevant.

    How, exactly, can a man who doesn't want a woman to abort and a woman who does come to an agreement? How, exactly, can a woman walk away from an unwanted pregnancy in the same manner as a man? I never said men were irrelevant, but when a woman wants an abortion or wants to remain pregnant, and the man wants her to remain pregnant or wants her to have an abortion, what should happen?


  • #617
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    lazygal wrote: »
    How, exactly, can a man who doesn't want a woman to abort and a woman who does come to an agreement?
    I did not respond to that. I've repeatedly said what I was responding to. Either learn to read or just stop with the strawmen.
    How, exactly, can a woman walk away from an unwanted pregnancy in the same manner as a man?
    I never said she can. I said that for a man to "walk away without a second thought" is offensive bollocks. Again, read what I wrote.
    I never said men were irrelevant
    No but you ran to the defense of someone who did.


  • #618
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Again, who mentioned equality?

    What I responded to was this BS about "without thinking twice about it", which is both factually false and as bigoted as you can get. Or would you like to defend what she wrote?

    And this kind of it doesn't affect men at all crap is equally ridiculous. Go make your babies on your own if we're so irrelevant.

    It does happen, there are enough lone parents out there to show that some mothers and fathers do not have a problem with not being part of their child's lives. Its not the majority, its a tiny minority but it does happen.

    The original comment was in relation to a poster who does not believe a woman should have the right to abort a pregnancy without the fathers consent. That is an inequality as there is no provision for the woman to enforce her will on the man. He can walk away at any stage. A pregnant woman can't.


  • #619
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It does happen, there are enough lone parents out there to show that some mothers and fathers do not have a problem with not being part of their child's lives. Its not the majority, its a tiny minority but it does happen.
    And that justifies someone saying that all men can "walk away without a second thought"? Are you fücking serious?

    Why don't you tell us how we're all rapists too given some of us commit rape? Or how about women are all gold-diggers because some are?

    Would you like to justify some other prejudice?
    The original comment was in relation to a poster who does not believe a woman should have the right to abort a pregnancy without the fathers consent.
    Did I respond to the original comment? I responded to something which was pretty clear and pretty bigoted. Still going to try and defend it?


  • #620
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The original comment was in relation to a poster who does not believe a woman should have the right to abort a pregnancy without the fathers consent. That is an inequality as there is no provision for the woman to enforce her will on the man. He can walk away at any stage. A pregnant woman can't.

    The fact is the man or woman should not have the right to make a decision which results in denying an unborn child the right to life.

    As an aside men are second class citizens when it comes to children in this country, its a battle for many to even see their children.


  • #621
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    And that justifies someone saying that all men can "walk away without a second thought"? Are you fücking serious?

    Why don't you tell us how we're all rapists too given some of us commit rape? Or how about women are all gold-diggers because some are?

    Would you like to justify some other prejudice?

    Did I respond to the original comment? I responded to something which was pretty clear and pretty bigoted. Still going to try and defend it?

    You're taking the comment out of context, no one was suggesting ALL men or anything like it. Complete over reaction on your part.


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  • #622
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    And that justifies someone saying that all men can "walk away without a second thought"? Are you fücking serious?

    Why don't you tell us how we're all rapists too given some of us commit rape? Or how about women are all gold-diggers because some are?

    Would you like to justify some other prejudice?

    Did I respond to the original comment? I responded to something which was pretty clear and pretty bigoted. Still going to try and defend it?

    Saying "all men can" is not the same as saying "all men would" or "all men do".

    The truth is we CAN walk away. Your taking offence doesn't change that.


  • #623
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    The fact is the man or woman should not have the right to make a decision which results in denying an unborn child the right to life.

    that's not a fact, it's an opinion. You're entitled to have it, you're entitled to express it but you're not entitled to have it treated as fact.


  • #624
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    The fact is the man or woman should not have the right to make a decision which results in denying an unborn child the right to life.

    As an aside men are second class citizens when it comes to children in this country, its a battle for many to even see their children.

    You're of the opinion that it's wrong, that's all it is. We're debating if that opinion should be reflected in law and in what circumstances.

    I completely agree with you regarding family law and fathers rights but it's not relevant to this debate.


  • #625
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You're taking the comment out of context, no one was suggesting ALL men or anything like it. Complete over reaction on your part.
    No it was not out of context. It was quite clear. Stop making excuses.
    Kev W wrote: »
    Saying "all men can" is not the same as saying "all men would" or "all men do".

    The truth is we CAN walk away. Your taking offence doesn't change that.
    Have you even read what I responded to?
    stinkle wrote: »
    Men have the option of walking away without thinking twice about it.
    'Men have the option' means men in general. All men.

    'Without a second thought' means it's easy with no effort of consequence whatsoever.

    Why don't you defend what was written, rather than what is in your head?


  • #626
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No it was not out of context. It was quite clear. Stop making excuses.

    Have you even read what I responded to?

    'Men have the option' means men in general. All men.

    Yes. ALL men have that option. Most wouldn't dream of taking it. many do.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    'Without a second thought' means it's easy with no effort of consequence whatsoever.

    Yes, in SOME cases that's true.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Why don't you defend what was written, rather than what is in your head?

    Because I'm responding to what's in YOUR head.


  • #627
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Do some men not have the option of walking away or something?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #628
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No it was not out of context. It was quite clear. Stop making excuses.

    Have you even read what I responded to?

    'Men have the option' means men in general. All men.

    'Without a second thought' means it's easy with no effort of consequence whatsoever.

    Why don't you defend what was written, rather than what is in your head?

    How do men not have the option of walking away without a second thought? Any man who finds that he has made someone pregnant can declare "Fk this, I'm out of here", pack his bag and disappear into the wide blue yonder without a backward glance.

    Most men would never do that, or even think of doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they can. In contrast if a woman gets pregnant she can't just go out to the shops, never come back, and leave him to deal with it.


  • #629
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    kylith wrote: »
    While I agree that a man can certainly be psychologically affected by a woman terminating a pregnancy when he wants to keep the baby which do you think is more psychologically damaging: the effect on a man of an unwanted (by him) abortion, or the effect on a woman being forced to carry a pregnancy and give birth against her will?

    You'd swear terminating pregnancies was the most natural thing in the world for women to do the way you, and others, speak about it. Nature never intended women to be be able to decide to stop being pregnant if that was their choice. It's part of the human condition, or at least it should be, that you get pregnant and you have a child. Now I am willing to wrap my head around early interventions in extreme cases like incest, rape and for reasons of health but beyond that I really can't.

    You ask which is worse, the trauma for a woman that has a child she doesn't want or a man having a child aborted that he does want, well I would say the latter, as a child can be fostered or adopted and the woman can get on with her life, whereas the man may have spent months emotionally preparing to be a father, been in close contact with his pregnant wife or g/f believing that his child was right there and may even have felt his baby kick (if a late stage abortion is carried out) and he may never get that out of his head. Some people just see the barbaric nature of abortion and some don't. It's a violent act. Some would argue the most violent.

    I appreciate that for some what I say might be hard to read but I genuinely don't believe some women understand what they are actually doing. I think discussions around it in our society, and the information delivered regarding it, is all done in such a clinical and sanatised way that I honestly feel that the growing human baby is quite often seen these days as nothing more than plaque build up and abortion clinic as a dentist office. It has to be though. This pretense is the only way I feel that millions of women could choose to abort so many babies each and every year around the world.

    As for the aftermath and who is effected worse.. it's not a competition.

    http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9708407.Personal_trainer_killed_himself_after_abortion_row/

    http://womenhurt.ie/


  • #630
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Kev W wrote: »
    Yes. ALL men have that option. Most wouldn't dream of taking it. many do.

    Yes, in SOME cases that's true.

    Because I'm responding to what's in YOUR head.
    Which is about something posted by someone else. They did not say some men can walk away without a second thought, they said all men can. So before you attack me on that you might want to bother knowing what you're writing about.
    kylith wrote: »
    How do men not have the option of walking away without a second thought? Any man who finds that he has made someone pregnant can declare "Fk this, I'm out of here", pack his bag and disappear into the wide blue yonder without a backward glance.
    In that scenario they remain legally financially liable. They can try to avoid this liability, even succeed in doing so, but if you think that this equates to not a second thought, you're living in fantasy land.

    And if the roles are reversed and the man wants the child but the woman aborts it, how does he walk away from that without a second thought?

    And then some people get upset if someone suggest that a woman could have an abortion without a second thought.


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  • #631
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    kylith wrote: »
    Most men would never do that, or even think of doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they can.

    That's an oxymoron to say most men could never do something.. that all men could.


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