The Irish language is failing.

dlouth15 · 11-06-2015 11:32AM

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.

Good article.

Quote:

So what is the secret to the language's revival?
Every senior figure in teaching I spoke to said the same: Manx is not forced on students.

People who want to learn the language come to it organically and it is not imposed on those who have no interest in it.

Although they don't mention it out of politeness, they have obviously learned something from the Irish experience - how not to do it.

jimgoose · 11-06-2015 11:33AM

Reiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.

I'm not surprised. Have you seen some of the placenames they have on the Isle of Man? The likes of Creg-ny-baa and Cronk-y-Voddy, sure where would you get it!

astrofool · 11-06-2015 12:12PM

Dughorm wrote: »

If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

boardise · 11-06-2015 01:10PM

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

Fighting Irish · 11-06-2015 01:36PM

Good

AnLonDubh · 11-06-2015 01:42PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Nah, I'd just ask for the English menu. If they didn't have one I'd leave for somewhere else.

Really, it's "crubeen" in English, pretty much the same. I wouldn't leave a restaurant due to one similar word being present in another language on the menu.

AnLonDubh · 11-06-2015 01:46PM

Dughorm wrote: »

It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that

Well considering there is no need to, is it really a surprise?

AnLonDubh · 11-06-2015 01:50PM

boardise wrote: »

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

All of that can be translated, but Im not sure what it would add. Tea and coffee sound similar in every European language. People often think (Ive heard a similar comment being made for Italian and French) that if a word sounds similar in another language it must be "fake" and taken from English. Why would the words sound different if they were recently taken from two other languages?

HIB · 11-06-2015 01:52PM

boardise wrote: »

In the unlikely event I ever find myself ordering a meal in Gaelic - how would I express the following triad of triads in the ancestral tongue ?

Prawn cocktail ; Breaded Ground Veal Cutlet; Rhubarb Crumble

Pickled Cucumbers with Beetroot Compote; Chargrilled Beefburger with Spicy Potato Wedges : Raspberry Ripple
Ice-cream

Terrine Ham Hock with Fig Chutney on Lightly Toasted Bun; Boned Aromatic Peking Duck; Sticky Toffee Pudding with Warm Butterscotch Sauce.

I'll give you a clue about the tea and coffee ....TEA =TAE...COFFEE =CAIFE (don't forget ..cup= cupán)

Ah shur what's wrong with a bit of plain old 'bagún agus cabáiste'. Tis far from aromatic Peking duck you were reared!

Bayberry · 11-06-2015 02:00PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really.

Bayberry wrote: »

Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to.
I never claimed any of those things, but they are a useful strawman arguments if you want to deflect from the facts of this artificial grade inflation I guess. Convenient guff hyperbole if you, for example, want to pretend that a 10% bonus makes no difference at all.

Whatever. First you claim that "we've no idea whether they have good grades really", and then that "bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to". It's obviously a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if you can't keep your story straight.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The subject in which proficiency gives them a bonus appears to have been chosen at random.

That just speaks for itself. If you truely believe that, then you're delusional, if you don't, then you're dishonest. Either way, you win - nobody can ever beat you at this argument.

Dan_Solo · 11-06-2015 02:07PM

Bayberry wrote: »

Whatever. First you claim that "we've no idea whether they have good grades really", and then that "bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to". It's obviously a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if you can't keep your story straight.

That just speaks for itself. If you truely believe that, then you're delusional, if you don't, then you're dishonest. Either way, you win - nobody can ever beat you at this argument.

None of this is actually a refutation. It's all "I don't like you or your argument".
Which tells its own story really doesn't it.

boardise · 11-06-2015 03:09PM

The key point that so many miss -it must be wilfully because nobody could really be that stupid-is that, outside the academic realm there is no need for Gaelic in the contemporary world.
The idea of ordering a meal in Gaelic is an example of simple-minded fantasising that I played along with to make the point that hardly needs spelling out -that Gaelic can't cope with the demands of life without utter waste of time and labour.
No Gaelic speakers, however allegedly 'fluent', would have these culinary vocabulary items to hand in their lexicon. Why would anyone go to the trouble of cobbling together translations that would represent words and phrases never used by a living soul before and which would not be understood by anyone perusing a menu ?
Same holds true across whole swathes of modern life.

recipio · 11-06-2015 03:30PM

Compulsory Irish for the Inter/Leaving cert was introduced in 1934. It is the perfect metaphor for Government coercion, an attitude ingrained in the top echelon of the civil service ever since. It is a pointless , stupid and unfair policy but until politicians and the policy makers cease to regard it as their own rite of passage I fear little will be done.

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-06-2015 03:32PM

astrofool wrote: »

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a snackbox

PopePalpatine · 11-06-2015 03:56PM

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Really, it's "crubeen" in English, pretty much the same. I wouldn't leave a restaurant due to one similar word being present in another language on the menu.

Honestly, I've never heard of a "crubeen" before this thread. Having looked it up I feel queasy.

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 04:41PM

dlouth15 wrote: »

At the most basic level, you need to be able to read and write to be able to get by in daily life in Ireland.

Likewise you need to be able to add and subtract, multiply and divide to get by in Ireland.

This is the basic educational argument for teaching these subjects. If you can't do those you are severely disadvantaged.

But you can in fact completely drop Irish from both primary and secondary school and suffer no ill-effects except artificial ones created by the state.

...

What is lacking is the equivalent arguments for Irish? Why exactly is it being taught? If it is vital, as Dughorm states, how is it that unlike maths and English, you can more or less get by perfectly well without it? A foreigner coming to the country needs English because that is the language that is spoken here. He may choose to learn Irish but he will know that it is not necessary for survival.

Since when did "it's necessary for survival" become the criteria with regards to education? What happened to exploration, creativity, expression, culture, scientific knowledge, philosophy etc...?

If that was our philosophy of education, where are the courses in cooking, nutrition, hygiene, personal finance, car maintenance, DIY etc... ?

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 04:44PM

dlouth15 wrote: »

"A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages"

But all you can do is repeat that. Can you come up with any reasons why? Not facetious ones ideally.

I think that's reason enough - unless you think Irish should not be a national language?

The Corinthian · 11-06-2015 04:45PM

astrofool wrote: »

What about Charcuterie, Filet Mignon, Coq au Vin or a risotto?

I don't want to point out the obvious but none of those are English terms - so expecting an Irish equivalent is a little unfair.

Truth is the idea that food might be a bit more than just fuel or soakage pretty much ends at Calais.

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 04:57PM

boardise wrote: »

The key point that so many miss -it must be wilfully because nobody could really be that stupid-is that, outside the academic realm there is no need for Gaelic in the contemporary world.
The idea of ordering a meal in Gaelic is an example of simple-minded fantasising that I played along with to make the point that hardly needs spelling out -that Gaelic can't cope with the demands of life without utter waste of time and labour.
No Gaelic speakers, however allegedly 'fluent', would have these culinary vocabulary items to hand in their lexicon. Why would anyone go to the trouble of cobbling together translations that would represent words and phrases never used by a living soul before and which would not be understood by anyone perusing a menu ?
Same holds true across whole swathes of modern life.

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages. I said at the outset that the reason why the current educational policies are in place is because of nostalgia not because of utility.

Someone mentioned that out of politeness they wouldn't speak Irish to a store attendant outside of the Gaeltacht for fear that they wouldn't understand them. Would that respect be reciprocated in a Gaeltacht area?

11-06-2015 04:59PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

It is important to be aware though that you could have used your Irish had you chosen to do so.

Aww come on. Can admire your conviction but, to speak to who?

I still can speak it, albeit a bit rusty as haven't in many years. I live right next to the galtacht and probably would respond if someone spoke to me in Irish but I've only heard it a very few times in the last 10 years.

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?

It actually failed decades ago.

For decades Irish has been taught at school like a dead language, I also did Latin at school, honestly think it was probably more useful.

The only reason two thirds of the galtacht area I grew up in (nearly 30 years ago) pretended to speak it was for some potential gain, deontas (for the new windows etc.), the double honour for the county council grant for college, parents pushing kids for a civil service job or the Uderas grant for some business or other.

Dan_Solo · 11-06-2015 05:01PM

Dughorm wrote: »

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages.

Well, no. The fact we have constitutional preference and compulsory teaching tells us absolutely nothing about what the Irish people want or need.

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 05:06PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, no. The fact we have constitutional preference and compulsory teaching tells us absolutely nothing about what the Irish people want or need.

Do you not believe native Irish speakers exist? Are the gaeltacht areas a sham in your view?

We already heard about people failing pass English in the leaving cert in this thread because they were native Irish speakers.

The people in Gaeltacht areas are plenty vocal about what they want and need - have you not heard them?

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 05:22PM

323 wrote: »

Aww come on. Can admire your conviction but, to speak to who?

I still can speak it, albeit a bit rusty as haven't in many years. I live right next to the galtacht and probably would respond if someone spoke to me in Irish but I've only heard it a very few times in the last 10 years.

Seriously, you live next to a gaeltacht and there's no one to speak Irish to??!

Here's a list of bookclubs in Irish - are any of them near you?

http://www.clubleabhar.com/Eolas.aspx?kd=Clubs&Lang=en

And here's a list of Ciorcal Gaeilge conversation groups

https://cnag.ie/en/events/is-leor-beirt-conversation-circles.html

Dan_Solo · 11-06-2015 05:25PM

Dughorm wrote: »

The people in Gaeltacht areas are plenty vocal about what they want and need - have you not heard them?

I can't say I've ever heard them asking for anything other than free money to be honest. If Irish was canned and they still got their cheque they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Now, why should 77,000 people be holding the Irish constitution and education system to ransom might you tell us?

Dan_Solo · 11-06-2015 05:26PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Seriously, you live next to a gaeltacht and there's no one to speak Irish to??!

Here's a list of bookclubs in Irish - are any of them near you?

http://www.clubleabhar.com/Eolas.aspx?kd=Clubs&Lang=en

And here's a list of Ciorcal Gaeilge conversation groups

https://cnag.ie/en/events/is-leor-beirt-conversation-circles.html

The fact that you have to go looking for anybody who speaks Irish by these means tells you everything you need to know about how popular it is.

Dughorm · 11-06-2015 05:28PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can't say I've ever heard them asking for anything other than free money to be honest. If Irish was canned and they still got their cheque they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Now, why should 77,000 people be holding the Irish constitution and education system to ransom might you tell us?

Then I suggest you find out some more...

This isn't about ransom, it's about respect.

Dan_Solo · 11-06-2015 05:34PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Then I suggest you find out some more...

This isn't about ransom, it's about respect.

It's about 1% of the population respecting the other 99%'s wish not to speak Irish? Oh wait...

Grayson · 11-06-2015 05:53PM

323 wrote: »

The only reason two thirds of the galtacht area I grew up in (nearly 30 years ago) pretended to speak it was for some potential gain, deontas (for the new windows etc.), the double honour for the county council grant for college, parents pushing kids for a civil service job or the Uderas grant for some business or other.

I'd honestly never heard of that until this thread. I've tried googling it but there's feck all online about it.

FunLover18 · 11-06-2015 06:12PM

Dughorm wrote:

Do you believe you have a genuine choice not to study maths and english if you didn't want to, in any school in the country?

Yes, unless you can actually prove me wrong. People are allowed not partake in religion due to beliefs, surely I would be allowed not partake in maths or English when I am under no obligation to do so. The fact is that Irish is the ONLY subject required by the state at LC level, I'm at a loss therefore as to how schools can make students do English and maths, feel free to enlighten me.

Dughorm wrote:

But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!

People are spending 13+ years studying Irish, you'd think such basic Irish would be covered. But of course if people aren't interested it doesn't matter What you teach them or for how long as the current state of the language proves.

Dughorm wrote:

The argument that there is no need for Irish is a personal one for you but not for all Irish people. Hence why there are multiple national languages. I said at the outset that the reason why the current educational policies are in place is because of nostalgia not because of utility.

And the nostalgia argument isn't a personal one that applies to only handful of Irish people?

briany · 11-06-2015 06:19PM

The argument that Irish should be thought in schools as a compulsory subject because it is one of the national languages doesn't really hold water. Paper won't refuse ink, as the saying goes.

The Irish language is failing.

Comments