The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm

dlouth15 wrote: »

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a philosophy of education as such, but using it in argument in this way is not helpful. If you are going to push an educational policy based on your philosophy of education whatever that might be, then you can't use the mere fact that it is your philosophy as justification.

What is the rational basis of Irish as a compulsory subject to leaving cert? If you can't answer this without reference to your particular philosophy of education, then why is yours superior to others?

Why is referring to one's philosophy of education not helpful in discussing educational policy? what is your basis for stating that?

Can you also define what you mean by "rational"? without knowing your philosophy of education, you appear to be using it as a synonym for "pragmatic" or "practical" ? I've already stated why and explained it in terms of my philosophy of education.

To me your question is phrased in terms of your philosophy without you stating what it is.

Dughorm

Folks,

I'm heading on my laethanta saoire so I'm going to have to make my apologies. I think it's clear the debate about Irish is far from over!

I started a thread on "Teach na Gealt" about cussing and swearing in Irish! A vital vocabulary for any living language! Have a gawk if you're interested!

Slán!

dlouth15

Dughorm wrote: »

Why is referring to one's philosophy of education not helpful in discussing educational policy? what is your basis for stating that?

Can you also define what you mean by "rational"? without knowing your philosophy of education, you appear to be using it as a synonym for "pragmatic" or "practical" ? I've already stated why and explained it in terms of my philosophy of education.

To me your question is phrased in terms of your philosophy without you stating what it is.

You see this illustrates the point I'm making. All I'm doing is asking why Irish is compulsory to leaving cert. It seems a perfectly reasonable question. Yet I get back a load of stuff about different philosophies of education.

This would probably not happen with the other subjects were they to be compulsory to leaving cert. Reasons would be given. I might not agree with those reasons but at least they would be attempts to answer the question on a rational basis. It doesn't really come down to "your philosophy of education" why maths or English or other subjects are taught at leaving cert or indeed any other subject.

Irish seems to separate out in this respect. Why is that?

irishlad12345

dlouth15 wrote: »

You see this illustrates the point I'm making. All I'm doing is asking why Irish is compulsory to leaving cert. It seems a perfectly reasonable question. Yet I get back a load of stuff about different philosophies of education.

This would probably not happen with the other subjects were they to be compulsory to leaving cert. Reasons would be given. I might not agree with those reasons but at least they would be attempts to answer the question on a rational basis. It doesn't really come down to "your philosophy of education" why maths or English or other subjects are taught at leaving cert or indeed any other subject.

Irish seems to separate out in this respect. Why is that?

But maths and english have practical uses outside of school the same can't be said for irish

Dan_Solo

Grayson wrote: »

It's only a national language because it's written into the constitution. If it were removed from there it wouldn't be a national language.

And if we teach children with no regard for practicality then we are wasting their education. We might as well throw in compulsory hurling and gaelic lessons.

Precisely. Saying it should be compulsory and it's our national language because it's in the constitution is like saying discrimination against homosexuals is OK because it's in our constitution. It's cart before horse stuff.

dlouth15

irishlad12345 wrote: »

But maths and english have practical uses outside of school the same can't be said for irish

I'm not saying every subject has to have a direct practical use. But they do need to have some rational justification.

If a British person was to suggest a specific subject should be made compulsory at A-level or even at GCSE level in Britain, it would be expected of them that they would provide a damn good reason. They would not be able to get away with dismissing arguments against it along the lines of "well that's according to your philosophy of education which holds utility important, mine is different". That would not convince anyone.

recipio

Irish is dying because it is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with this, all languages evolve. The 1916 generation including DeValera believed in coercion, introducing compulsory Irish for state exams in 1934. Not surprisingly this included the ludicrous notion that Unionists could be forced into a United Ireland.It is a failed policy.
I'm surprised how long this agenda has persisted. We now get 'Tacsai' instead of Taxi and 'Eirecodes' instead of Postcodes. Of course, as long as proficiency in Irish is a prerequisite for State jobs we will get this kind delusional thinking. I'm just glad we as a nation have fluency in English and for all the keyboard warriors on here I have no objection to people learning Irish on a voluntary basis.

boardise

Succinct and true.

Tacsaí for taxi is plain cuckoo. .. pronounced in Gaelic phonology as 'thocksy' . Don't forget the plural is 'tacsaithe'...thocksaha'.
Of course it's harmless enough in that you could write it in Urdu. Everyone knows a taxi when they see one no matter what gibberish adorns the doors.

323

Grayson wrote: »

Thanks for the help

I know there are grants to set up businesses in the west but they're more about getting businesses into a area that's facing depopulation issues. Not really about Irish.

BTW, I googled the plural and the first two pages were Irish results

As far as I remember those grants for moving to areas facing depopulation were a separate grant scam. Know a few families who moved from Dublin to the West coast, 20 odd years ago on that scheme. Went a long way towards the price of a house at the time.

The geltacht grants for Uderas for start up business' are similar to what can be got from the IDA and county enterprise boards. Usually can get more money, also easier to get if your in with the right clique. At least one person involved must speak Irish.

Tried web search also, similar results. but did find this little bit from The Mayo News a few years ago.

Living in the Gaeltacht

Zen65

Dughorm wrote: »

I think speaking Irish is a bit like going for a run, without practice and training, you will be left red-faced and out of breath in a few minutes!

Perhaps you're answering a different question to the ones you quoted?

Anyone can go for a run by themselves; it's a perfectly normal way to exercise. Speaking Irish to myself would not normal; it would be anti-social, and frankly weird. I rarely even speak English to myself.

Reading Irish is possible of course, but the available subject matter is very limited. I do not read fiction of any sort, so I'm not going to read Irish fiction. I read only a limited amount of 'current affairs' but what's available in Irish would have been very limited. Bear in mind that it's about 35 years ago that I last learned / spoke any Irish, and the internet was not around, so keeping up with Irish was well nigh impossible (and certainly impractical) for me.

Maybe it's easier now? I doubt it. Mostly, what you find written in Irish online is discussions about the Irish language itself, or about matters that are of very little interest to me.

So, Irish is dying because people don't / won't use it, and people do not wish to learn it because others do not / will not use it.

So my thoughts are . . let it die, and teach it as an optional course in much the same way as we teach Latin.

Deranged96

Zen65 wrote: »

So my thoughts are . . let it die, and teach it as an optional course in much the same way as we teach Latin.

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

What makes you think it won't die anyway if it's optional?
At least now they can lie about the number of "Irish speakers" in the country to the EU and get some cash.

Zen65

Deranged96 wrote: »

Can we maybe not let it die, and still teach it as an optional course?

I'm not suggesting we kill it, but I am suggesting we stop wasting so much resources in trying to keep it alive. It has become the ultimate Monty Python parrot, with so many people denying that it is dead, and pumping money to try artificially preserve it.

Latin is dead, everyone knows that, and it's still a reasonably popular LC course.

Paramite Pie

I bought a graphic novel in Irish but I haven't read through it yet. I just liked the fact that it exists.:P

However, I've a long way to go before I'm able to read it coherently. It might be a fun way to re-learn.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What makes you think it won't die anyway if it's optional?
At least now they can lie about the number of "Irish speakers" in the country to the EU and get some cash.

As long as the Gaeltachí don't go terminal altogether, optional Irish will not kill the language. Besides, if everyone abandoned it in the Gaeltachtí, and it was compulsory in schools, it would still be a dead language going by the linguistic definition

Zen65 wrote: »

I'm not suggesting we kill it, but I am suggesting we stop wasting so much resources in trying to keep it alive. It has become the ultimate Monty Python parrot, with so many people denying that it is dead, and pumping money to try artificially preserve it.

Latin is dead, everyone knows that, and it's still a reasonably popular LC course.

I'm in 6th year and know nobody, nor have heard of anybody, doing Latin.
How much money is being pumped into it? Not a lot I would argue. At least the translations employ people.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

At least the translations employ people.

Pardon? It'd be a far better use of resources to pay people to make free buns and cakes TBH. At least you can do something with a cake.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pardon? It'd be a far better use of resources to pay people to make free buns and cakes TBH. At least you can do something with a cake.

Pardon? Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity instead of supporting the arts and heritage of Ireland, seems in tune with the way of things at the moment.

I was simply drawing attention to the bemoaning about money going into Irish, it can't be that much at all, and it employs people.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Pardon? Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity instead of supporting the arts and heritage of Ireland, seems in tune with the way of things at the moment.

I was simply drawing attention to the bemoaning about money going into Irish, it can't be that much at all, and it employs people.

But if people do nothing but speak Irish they might forget to eat or breathe and THEY WILL DIE!!!!
But yeah, having a cake means you're definitely obese. You got me.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But if people do nothing but speak Irish they might forget to eat or breathe and THEY WILL DIE!!!!
But yeah, having a cake means you're definitely obese. You got me.

And pumping money into Irish means you're definitely fluent, by that logic.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

And pumping money into Irish means you're definitely fluent, by that logic.

Yes, but that was your logic, not mine.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, but that was your logic, not mine.

No, you inferred from me saying that producing cakes would raise the level of obesity, that everyone who eats a cake is obese.

Clearly, I did not say nor infer that, so I was showing how stupid such an inference would be.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

No, you inferred from me saying that producing cakes would raise the level of obesity, that everyone who eats a cake is obese.

Clearly, I did not say nor infer that, so I was showing how stupid such an inference would be.

Exactly what you said was

Ah yes, pump money into raising the levels of obesity.

So pretty much yeah, you do think giving out free cakes is guaranteed to make people fat. Can people not have cakes now? Still a better way to spend state money that even a red cent on Irish.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Exactly what you said was
So pretty much yeah, you do think giving out free cakes is guaranteed to make people fat. Can people not have cakes now? Still a better way to spend state money that even a red cent on Irish.

There are free cakes.
Man A has two free cakes a week.
Man B has two free cakes a day.
Man B becomes obese two months down the line.
Man A does not.
The level of obesity has risen.
Not everyone who ate a free cake became obese.
Get it?
Christ.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

There are free cakes.
Man A has two free cakes a week.
Man B has two free cakes a day.
Man B becomes obese two months down the line.
Man A does not.
The level of obesity has risen.
Not everyone who ate a free cake became obese.
Get it?
Christ.

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Besides, a fat guy might still actually be of benefit to society. An Irish translator? No possible way.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Speaking requires ongoing breathing.
He'll pass out before he dies and then he wouldn't be speaking.
Allowing him to breath.
So no I don't get it.
Allah

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You pay Man A to speak Irish.
You pay Man B to speak Irish.
Man B speaks Irish so much he forgets to breathe and dies.
Get it?
Satan.

Besides, a fat guy might still actually be of benefit to society. An Irish translator? No possible way.

Fat people can be Irish translators too y'know,
In fact statistically the majority of them are fat.
So there.

Iwasfrozen

Deranged96 wrote: »

I'm in 6th year and know nobody, nor have heard of anybody, doing Latin.
How much money is being pumped into it? Not a lot I would argue. At least the translations employ people.

By that logic we could employ people to dig holes and fill them in again. The problem is that resources are limited. Every translator is one less nurse in our hospitals.

Deranged96

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By that logic we could employ people to dig holes and fill them in again. The problem is that resources are limited. Every translator is one less nurse in our hospitals.

There are people who appreciate Irish having a modern body of official publications and signs in Irish

Nobody would appreciate the return of follies :P

The number of translators required are very very very very small with everyone that has Irish on their CVs firing one in to the translations office.

Its very drastic to say that the handful of them are taking away from nurses, and I imagine an Irish translator reading that would be deeply hurt.

besides, arn't must of them employed in Brussels?

dlouth15

Appologies for the long post. Some of this has been posted already. I'm trying to get my thoughts down in as concise a way as possible.

These are positive steps that I think could improve Irish speaking in the country whilst at the same time not forcing it on others.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that whether or not Irish lives or dies has little to do with whether it remains compulsory. It lives or dies depending on whether there is a genuine rather than artificial need to speak it in ordinary life.

If anything compulsion and other artificial threats and bribes has led to its further demise.

One of the good things for me about leaving school was that I would never have to sit through another Irish class. This had nothing to do with the way it was taught. Irish is not the day to day language of Ireland the way French is in France, yet we were taught as if it was. No amount of teaching no matter how well it is taught will bring about an Irish speaking country, and while it is not an Irish speaking country few will have any interest in learning to any great extent.

I knew when I left school that I would have little or no use for the language. What is the point in better teaching of a subject that won't be used later?

Yet I respect those who have a genuine love for the language. What we should be able to agree on is that Irish will never be the dominant spoken language of the country through compulsion in schools and I think most who like the language agree with this. Those who hated Irish at school should find common ground here.

What I would suggest then is a removal of all compulsion at leaving cert level. Removal of Irish as a compulsory university entry requirement (allow it to be used as a part of a general language requirement).

We already don't require it for entry to the civil service but it still confers advantages in career progression. Remove this.

Stop counting those who are forced to attend Irish classes as Irish speakers. You are not an Irish speaker if you attend classes in Irish!

Remove the 10 percentage points added on to those who do the Leaving cert through Irish.

Most controversially, perhaps: remove Irish as the Official National Language. You can't simply declare something to be a national language and expect everyone to learn it. First, people have to speak the language, then you make it the national language. We need to earn the right to call Irish our national language. To do otherwise is hypocritical and therefore counterproductive.

Admit total failure in the policy to date. The only good to come of it is that we are an example to other on how not to do it.

Groups like Conradh na Gaeilge will, of course, protest loudly at all this. But it is important to remember that there is a difference between promoting the interests of Irish speakers and genuine encouragement of the language itself. Most of what has been done to promote the interests of Irish speakers has led to a decline in the language.

These groups have had their way for most of the last century or so and we can now see the results. Most of their policies have had the effect of killing the language to the extent that even in Gaelteacht areas, Irish is no longer the dominant language.

They have had their way. They have failed. Time for new thinking.

Instead of these bribes, punishments and guilt trips, follow international thinking on language revival. Be aware that it has never been done outside of Israel and that in that country there were unique circumstances. It will be harder in Ireland.

But the general thinking is that you can't force a language and any attempts to do so are counter productive. There is also plenty of evidence going back decades that language needs to be taught early on and that immersion works.

Therefore concentrate on reviving the language not as a failed national language but as a living regional one. Work at getting at getting a critical mass of speakers in a particular area. Concentrate resources there. Remove resources where there is little interest (i.e. most of the country) and therefore have no effect or a negative effect. Where you do teach it, do so at primary and pre-school level. But do so in such a way that all pre-schools and primary schools in an area are throught the medium of Irish. This needs to be concentrated in a geographical area, not dispersed throughout the country and needs to be done on such a scale that critical mass is achieved.

Someone will point out that this is probably not enough but my purpose is not to spell out everything that needs to be done but rather where we need to start if there's to be any attempt at localised revival. The key point is concentration of resources.

So to those who hated being forced to learn Irish at school like myself I would suggest that it is not hatred of the language itself but the hypocrisy, the pretence that Irish is a language loved by the Irish people. The fact that jobs and the financial interests of a relatively small group are at the heart of Irish language policy rather than your welfare when you leave school or any real promotion of the language.

Deranged96

dlouth15 wrote: »

Appologies for the long post. Some of this has been posted already. I'm trying to get my thoughts down in as concise a way as possible.

These are positive steps that I think could improve Irish speaking in the country whilst at the same time not forcing it on others.

The thing we should be able to agree on is that whether or not Irish lives or dies has little to do with whether it remains compulsory. It lives or dies depending on whether there is a genuine rather than artificial need to speak it in ordinary life.

If anything compulsion and other artificial threats and bribes has led to its further demise.

One of the good things for me about leaving school was that I would never have to sit through another Irish class. This had nothing to do with the way it was taught. Irish is not the day to day language of Ireland the way French is in France, yet we were taught as if it was. No amount of teaching no matter how well it is taught will bring about an Irish speaking country, and while it is not an Irish speaking country few will have any interest in learning to any great extent.

I knew when I left school that I would have little or no use for the language. What is the point in better teaching of a subject that won't be used later?

Yet I respect those who have a genuine love for the language. What we should be able to agree on is that Irish will never be the dominant spoken language of the country through compulsion in schools and I think most who like the language agree with this. Those who hated Irish at school should find common ground here.

What I would suggest then is a removal of all compulsion at leaving cert level. Removal of Irish as a compulsory university entry requirement (allow it to be used as a part of a general language requirement).

We already don't require it for entry to the civil service but it still confers advantages in career progression. Remove this.

Stop counting those who are forced to attend Irish classes as Irish speakers. You are not an Irish speaker if you attend classes in Irish!

Remove the 10 percentage points added on to those who do the Leaving cert through Irish.

Most controversially, perhaps: remove Irish as the Official National Language. You can't simply declare something to be a national language and expect everyone to learn it. First, people have to speak the language, then you make it the national language. We need to earn the right to call Irish our national language. To do otherwise is hypocritical and therefore counterproductive.

Admit total failure in the policy to date. The only good to come of it is that we are an example to other on how not to do it.

Groups like Conradh na Gaeilge will, of course, protest loudly at all this. But it is important to remember that there is a difference between promoting the interests of Irish speakers and genuine encouragement of the language itself. Most of what has been done to promote the interests of Irish speakers has led to a decline in the language.

These groups have had their way for most of the last century or so and we can now see the results. Most of their policies have had the effect of killing the language to the extent that even in Gaelteacht areas, Irish is no longer the dominant language.

They have had their way. They have failed. Time for new thinking.

Instead of these bribes, punishments and guilt trips, follow international thinking on language revival. Be aware that it has never been done outside of Israel and that in that country there were unique circumstances. It will be harder in Ireland.

But the general thinking is that you can't force a language and any attempts to do so are counter productive. There is also plenty of evidence going back decades that language needs to be taught early on and that immersion works.

Therefore concentrate on reviving the language not as a failed national language but as a living regional one. Work at getting at getting a critical mass of speakers in a particular area. Concentrate resources there. Remove resources where there is little interest (i.e. most of the country) and therefore have no effect or a negative effect. Where you do teach it, do so at primary and pre-school level. But do so in such a way that all pre-schools and primary schools in an area are throught the medium of Irish. This needs to be concentrated in a geographical area, not dispersed throughout the country and needs to be done on such a scale that critical mass is achieved.

So to those who hated being forced to learn Irish at school like myself I would suggest that it is not hatred of the language itself but the hypocrisy, the pretence that Irish is a language loved by the Irish people. The fact that jobs and the financial interests of a relatively small group are at the heart of Irish language policy rather than your welfare when you leave school or any real promotion of the language.

I agree with a lot of this, but there seems to be a lot of stick and no carrot.

I think that receiving extra marks for doing your leaving cert through Irish is fair enough, you get 25 pts for passing Higher Maths and their talking about extending that to other sciences, so its nothing privileged.

However, those extra marks in Irish should not be extend to papers that have minimal writing, such as Chemistry and Physics.