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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1172
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why all the talk of religion? It's not like irish and religion are interchangeable.

    I guess it's all to do with the generation that grew up in the 70's and 80's (thankfully I was in Germany), some would say they had religion, Irish (language, dancing, diddly eye music), the GAA and Fiana Fail bate into them.
    Now while religion and FF have taken some knocks (i.e. people have woken up and rightfully gave them both their marching orders), there is still a chance for the music and the language, but it has a lot to do with having it forced onto people. According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

    As for Gaelscoils, while it may suit a lot of kids, I would be careful to assume it suits every child. Would you force your kid through gaelscoil even if his/her grades plummet because they have difficulty with the language?


  • #1173
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,202 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    ...According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

    There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

    "He possessed the very best poverty, hunger and distress also. He was generous and open-handed and he never possessed the smallest object which he did not share with the neighbours; nevertheless, I can never remember him during my time possessing the least thing, even the quantity of little potatoes needful to keep body and soul joined together. In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic... There was no one in Ireland comparable to O'Sanassa in the excellence of his poverty; the amount of famine which was delineated in his person."


  • #1174
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    Dughorm wrote: »
    University access is barred to those failing Irish in their leaving cert also as far as I know?

    Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.

    However, I think it is accepted from the discussion we had about gaelscoileanna a few pages previous that sending a child to a Gaelscoil does not disadvantage a child in general

    You need a pass in either Irish or a foreign language to matriculate.

    I beleive it is common sense that the amount of exposure you have to a language has an influence on your articulacy and fluency in that language. Indeed, this is the very principle that gaelscoils are founded on.

    It follows that people attending English speaking schools will, in general, attain a higher level of articulacy, and fluency in English, than those attending gaelscoils.


  • #1175
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I guess it's all to do with the generation that grew up in the 70's and 80's (thankfully I was in Germany), some would say they had religion, Irish (language, dancing, diddly eye music), the GAA and Fiana Fail bate into them.
    Now while religion and FF have taken some knocks (i.e. people have woken up and rightfully gave them both their marching orders), there is still a chance for the music and the language, but it has a lot to do with having it forced onto people. According to some, Peig Sayers is responsible for turning millions of children irrevocably against Irish. Makes sense, it just associates Irish with misery, poverty and hardship. Not the right way to make the Irish language sexy.

    A good post which brings us back to curriculum again.

    It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that?

    That generation which featured on the syllabus endured misery, poverty and hardship had Irish (and not much else!), but there were other movements in Irish which people perhaps could engage with more today (e.g. in UCC in the 70's).

    It amazes me in Paris to see people in the Metro reading small books / dialogues as they commute to work, go shopping etc...- I would love to see an equivalent in Ireland where people could engage with Irish at their own level.


  • #1176
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

    As for Gaelscoils, while it may suit a lot of kids, I would be careful to assume it suits every child. Would you force your kid through gaelscoil even if his/her grades plummet because they have difficulty with the language?

    I'm not in favour of forcing children into gaelscoils because I believe in parental choice where it comes to the type and ethos of the school they send their child to.


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  • #1177
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?


  • #1178
    The Dark Side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭The Dark Side


    Dughorm wrote: »

    It amazes me that people leave school in Ireland without being able to order a meal in Irish - something as basic as that?

    If you try to order a meal in Irish, you'll get blank stares.

    Far easier to just order a meal in English.


  • #1179
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »
    I know this thread was started two weeks ago so I just wanted to know is Irish still failing or has it actually failed yet?

    If the argument for Irish was failing would we be 80 pages into this discussion and counting... :)


  • #1180
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    jimgoose wrote: »
    There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

    "He possessed the very best poverty, hunger and distress also. He was generous and open-handed and he never possessed the smallest object which he did not share with the neighbours; nevertheless, I can never remember him during my time possessing the least thing, even the quantity of little potatoes needful to keep body and soul joined together. In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic... There was no one in Ireland comparable to O'Sanassa in the excellence of his poverty; the amount of famine which was delineated in his person."

    Excellence of his poverty....brilliant. :)


  • #1181
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.
    It is if you are forced to do it and it is utterly useless to you and it could be the deciding factor for no possible logical reason on whether you get into university or not. You may as well pick trampolining or flower arranging as any random shyte that would indicate how clever students are.
    With the added bonus that at least there's a chance you'll use those skills later in life...


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  • #1182
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Dark Side wrote: »
    If you try to order a meal in Irish, you'll get blank stares.

    But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!
    The Dark Side wrote: »
    Far easier to just order a meal in English.

    Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...


  • #1183
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Bayberry wrote: »
    Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus?
    The subject in which proficiency gives them a bonus appears to have been chosen at random. The bonus itself is precisely detailed in the document I already linked to.
    Bayberry wrote: »
    That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?
    I never claimed any of those things, but they are a useful strawman arguments if you want to deflect from the facts of this artificial grade inflation I guess. Convenient guff hyperbole if you, for example, want to pretend that a 10% bonus makes no difference at all.
    Bayberry wrote: »
    Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.
    So you're telling me they are proficient enough in English to use an English textbook and be able to subsequently answer questions on the same subject in Irish? Or is their Irish not good enough to be able to express ideas they received in a different language? How different is Irish geometry from English geometry anyway?
    Bayberry wrote: »
    There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.
    "part of the public perception"? That's laughable. So because (you claim) the public don't perceive something as true or false that is direct evidence of it being true or false? Seriously?


  • #1184
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...
    Which is English for over 99% of Ireland. Why would anybody expect, need or even want to order food in Irish?


  • #1185
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Which is English for over 99% of Ireland. Why would anybody expect, need or even want to order food in Irish?

    If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is :)


  • #1186
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    Dughorm wrote: »
    But of course if no one ever learns in school how to order a meal!



    Which is a circular argument... It is easier to speak in your native language therefore it is easier to do so...

    In fairness, I think the point being made is that if you speak in Irish to a waitress/waiter,they will most likely not understand you.
    It's basic manners to try to speak to people in a language they understand. If you're in France use French. If you're in Ireland, use English.


  • #1187
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    jimgoose wrote: »
    There's definitely something in that. Sayer's work is important, but not the sort of thing to present to a bunch of twelve-year-olds in order to pique their interest. You should check out Flann O'Brien's "An Beal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth) for a rather excellent send-up of this sort of thing. Here is a description of one protagonist therein:

    I have already quoted from it! :p


  • #1188
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    HIB wrote: »
    In fairness, I think the point being made is that if you speak in Irish to a waitress/waiter,they will most likely not understand you.
    It's basic manners to try to speak to people in a language they understand. If you're in France use French. If you're in Ireland, use English.

    Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish? :)


  • #1189
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is :)
    Dear God, no you wouldn't. This is a case for knowing less Irish if anything...


  • #1190
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish? :)
    To a likely Polish waitress? Nope.


  • #1191
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is it possible we are all too polite to speak Irish? :)

    Maybe :)
    One of my local towns is only a few miles from a genuine Gaeltacht and loads of Irish speakers frequent the town. They use English when they're in town though, presumably because its easier and also more polite. I used to work in a shop where we had one guy who used to come in and insist on speaking Irish. He'd come up to the counter and ask for whatever he wanted in Irish. Invariably you couldnt understand him, would ask him to speak english and then he'd make a big song and dance about repeating what he said slowly and loudly. The whole queue would then have to wait while we went and got the owner who spoke Irish. Needless to say, everyone thought he was an arrogant, ignorant, a**hole!


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  • #1192
    dlouth15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    Bayberry wrote: »
    What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve? For that matter, what function does any mathemathics beyond basic arithmetic serve for 90% of people? When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?

    At the most basic level, you need to be able to read and write to be able to get by in daily life in Ireland.

    Likewise you need to be able to add and subtract, multiply and divide to get by in Ireland.

    This is the basic educational argument for teaching these subjects. If you can't do those you are severely disadvantaged.

    But you can in fact completely drop Irish from both primary and secondary school and suffer no ill-effects except artificial ones created by the state.

    I think you will agree with me that everyone needs these basics. As you move beyond these extremely basic skills it is true that not everyone will need every skill that is taught. For example if you become an accountant or financial adviser you will need to know about mathematics taught at secondary level. Likewise electrician, architect and any number of other professions. A good standard of written English will generally help in whatever you choose to do both professionally and outside of work.

    You personally may not need to know what the area of a triangle is but others do and moreover you depend on them knowing it. The school system does not know who is going to need this knowledge and who is not, so they have to teach everyone.

    These are basic educational arguments for the need for certain subjects in the educational system. You might disagree with certain aspects of them but at least the arguments are there.

    What is lacking is the equivalent arguments for Irish? Why exactly is it being taught? If it is vital, as Dughorm states, how is it that unlike maths and English, you can more or less get by perfectly well without it? A foreigner coming to the country needs English because that is the language that is spoken here. He may choose to learn Irish but he will know that it is not necessary for survival.


  • #1193
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.

    Why am I being reminded of that bullshit "everyone has the equal opportunity to marry someone of the other gender" argument that was thrown around during the marriage equality debate?


  • #1194
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Dughorm wrote: »
    If you saw crúbíns on the menu you might want to know what it is :)

    Nah, I'd just ask for the English menu. If they didn't have one I'd leave for somewhere else.


  • #1195
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,202 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I have already quoted from it! :p

    Good maun, hi. It's a rather rare example of satire in Proper Literature(TM) that'll make you laugh out loud. :D


  • #1196
    dlouth15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    Dughorm wrote: »
    your interpretation of my argument makes it appear that I think irish should be part of the world's education and that people are somehow uneducated or not properly educated without it.... not at all.

    A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages. that's all it's not like I'm judging any person's command of the language

    "A rounded irish education includes education in the national languages"

    But all you can do is repeat that. Can you come up with any reasons why? Not facetious ones ideally.


  • #1197
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    HIB wrote: »
    Maybe :)
    One of my local towns is only a few miles from a genuine Gaeltacht and loads of Irish speakers frequent the town. They use English when they're in town though, presumably because its easier and also more polite. I used to work in a shop where we had one guy who used to come in and insist on speaking Irish. He'd come up to the counter and ask for whatever he wanted in Irish. Invariably you couldnt understand him, would ask him to speak english and then he'd make a big song and dance about repeating what he said slowly and loudly. The whole queue would then have to wait while we went and got the owner who spoke Irish. Needless to say, everyone thought he was an arrogant, ignorant, a**hole!

    Pity I didn't work in that shop, I would have answered in German. :pac:


  • #1198
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,202 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Bayberry wrote: »
    ...When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?....

    Last week. Every time I pick up my tools I find I need to know something like that, be it calculating the surface area of a cone (-ish) or bisecting an angle. I guess I'm just lucky! :D


  • #1199
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Bayberry wrote: »
    What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve? For that matter, what function does any mathemathics beyond basic arithmetic serve for 90% of people? When was the last time that you needed to know the volume of a sphere or the area of a trangle?
    Presumably then mathematics education should stop at the age of 8 or 9, as anything beyond that is not really useful?


  • #1200
    Reiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Reiver


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29171457

    Seems to agree with some of the points made in the thread.


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  • #1201
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,897 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Presumably then mathematics education should stop at the age of 8 or 9, as anything beyond that is not really useful?

    Only if you don't want anyone to do engineering, programming or science later in life. Even managers and business people need it.

    Irish isn't needed.

    In the UK maths is optional after a certain stage and they want to change that because they've found that they have so many adults that are mathematically illiterate.

    Besides the most obvious benefits maths teaches logical problem solving. It's not all addition and subtraction.


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