Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Good news everyone! The Boards.ie Subscription service is live. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

The Irish language is failing.

1…3637394142…94

Comments

  • #1142
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dughorm wrote: »
    You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?
    Probably not the useful ones, I would suggest. Maths and English should be compulsory.


  • #1143
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Probably not the useful ones, I would suggest. Maths and English should be compulsory.

    What distinguishes Leaving Cert English in terms of usefulness, if "usefulness" is your criteria for education?


  • #1144
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dughorm wrote: »
    What distinguishes Leaving Cert English in terms of usefulness, if "usefulness" is your criteria for education?
    Being able to analyse, understand and synthesise information is critical for almost any form of higher education, not to mention day-to-day life.


  • #1145
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.
    Oh jeebus. That's sounds like the "gays are as entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex as heteros are" kind of equal opportunity.
    If there were bonus points for doing the LC in Chinese or Polish would that be fair? Why not bonus points for English then too?


  • #1146
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Being able to analyse, understand and synthesise information is critical for almost any form of higher education, not to mention day-to-day life.

    Which is done in all leaving cert subjects, including Irish.

    Why does being able to analyse, understand and synthesise Shakespeare need to be mandatory above other subjects going on your criteria?


  • Advertisement
  • #1147
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh jeebus. That's sounds like the "gays are as entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex as heteros are" kind of equal opportunity.
    If there were bonus points for doing the LC in Chinese or Polish would that be fair? Why not bonus points for English then too?

    I have to admit I lolled at that one.

    Why not bonus points for Honours Maths? Oh yes, we have that already, unless you consider that unfair too?


  • #1148
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Which is done in all leaving cert subjects, including Irish.
    Not to nearly the same level as in English.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why does being able to analyse, understand and synthesise Shakespeare need to be mandatory above other subjects going on your criteria?
    Leaving Cert English is not just Shakespeare, is it? And even if it were, you have to understand the text, understand the criticism of the text, understand the question you are being asked, and then construct an answer based on a synthesis of what you have studied, outlining arguments and backing them up with evidence from the text.

    To suggest that this happens in 'all' other subjects is nonsense, which I suspect you already know.


  • #1149
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Not to nearly the same level as in English.

    Leaving Cert English is not just Shakespeare, is it? And even if it were, you have to understand the text, understand the criticism of the text, understand the question you are being asked, and then construct an answer based on a synthesis of what you have studied, outlining arguments and backing them up with evidence from the text.

    To suggest that this happens in 'all' other subjects is nonsense, which I suspect you already know.

    Can you define this "level" you refer to? Is it in terms of "usefulness" which you stated was your criteria?

    I must admit, I have not found any practical usefulness to writing a critique of Sylvia Plath, Shakespeare or John B. Keane though I enjoyed it very much. Some of my optional subjects were much more "useful" to me. I could have studied more "useful" subjects had English not been mandatory.

    But then usefulness isn't my philosophy of education.


  • #1150
    FunLover18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Which levels are these? Who defines them?

    The difference is that the Department of Education states that all LC students must study at least five subjects one of which must be Irish. When this provision is removed then Irish still may be made "mandatory" by schools. There is no state requirement for students to study English and Maths at LC, therefore different levels.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    Very well, there is a need for compulsory Maths and English as well as Irish in my opinion. Both national languages covered, the language of science covered with plenty of choice left over for the student to specialise or to embrace a variety of subject areas.

    So, should the state impose a requirement for students to study Maths and English, or should remove the requirement and allow schools to make the choice.


  • #1151
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    The difference is that the Department of Education states that all LC students must study at least five subjects one of which must be Irish. When this provision is removed then Irish still may be made "mandatory" by schools. There is no state requirement for students to study English and Maths at LC, therefore different levels.



    So, should the state impose a requirement for students to study Maths and English, or should remove the requirement and allow schools to make the choice.

    This is hair splitting in my opinion, akin to the tedious references to the constitution. For all practical purposes, there are 3 core subjects. Try find a school which doesn't enforce this.


  • Advertisement
  • #1152
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I have to admit I lolled at that one.

    Why not bonus points for Honours Maths? Oh yes, we have that already, unless you consider that unfair too?
    Whatabout that for whataboutery!
    Not fair. Next.


  • #1153
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Dughorm wrote: »
    You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?
    As FunLover18 just pointed out, all other subjects bar Irish are optional.


  • #1154
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Can you define this "level" you refer to? Is it in terms of "usefulness" which you stated was your criteria?
    Sure. The standard of answer expected in an English LC paper is far higher than the standard expected in an Irish paper. I suspect you also know this.

    A higher standard of grammar, spelling, sentence construction - all of which allow for a higher standard of argument being made (it's very hard to make a cogent argument for something when you are trying to avoid words you don't know in Irish, or tricky tenses, or sentence structures you are unsure of).
    Dughorm wrote: »
    I must admit, I have not found any practical usefulness to writing a critique of Sylvia Plath, Shakespeare or John B. Keane though I enjoyed it very much. Some of my optional subjects were much more "useful" to me. I could have studied more "useful" subjects had English not been mandatory.
    It's probably not apparent to you, but it has helped you - for example - to hold your own in this discussion, and probably a million other things. People tend to forget that reading comprehension is a learned skill, and it can be learned to different levels. Similarly writing an argument.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    But then usefulness isn't my philosophy of education.
    Well that's fair enough I suppose.


  • #1155
    Bayberry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Bayberry


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
    The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.
    The claim is that teaching kids Irish is a waste of time that takes from useful learning. I didn't claim that kids at Gaelscoileanna get good grades because they are taught through Irish, I said that it disproves the cant that learning Irish is a waste of time. I ignored your other points because they're irrelevant to the point I was making - and you know that, which is why you threw them in, to distract from the issue.


  • #1156
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Bayberry wrote: »
    What function does Shakespeare or poetry serve?

    They develop an understanding of the power of communication through the English language, which every student will use daily until the day they die.

    Shakespeare's phraseology has become so commonplace in our language we barely know we are quoting him.

    And I use the maths I learned often enough . . . (but I'm an engineer)

    I use the French and German I learned every year, or every other year when I travel.

    I have not used Irish since the day I left school with my "A" in honours Irish.


  • #1157
    FunLover18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This is hair splitting in my opinion, akin to the tedious references to the constitution. For all practical purposes, there are 3 core subjects. Try find a school which doesn't enforce this.

    How can a school force students to study Maths and English? That's a genuine question; is there a way that a school can legally make study a subject I'm not required to do? The only reason I didn't try to and get out of them (not that I would have, although I don't think they should be compulsory but I personally found them interesting) is because I didn't know that Irish was the only subject I was specifically required to do, and I'd imagine that goes for a lot of students. Schools may not be offering a choice (which is very wrong, don't misunderstand me) but the choice is and should be there however the state gives students no choice with relation to Irish. Hardly splitting hairs, two very different wrongs.


  • #1158
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Bayberry wrote: »
    The claim is that teaching kids Irish is a waste of time that takes from useful learning. I didn't claim that kids at Gaelscoileanna get good grades because they are taught through Irish, I said that it disproves the cant that learning Irish is a waste of time. I ignored your other points because they're irrelevant to the point I was making - and you know that, which is why you threw them in, to distract from the issue.
    They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really. But you know this and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda's narrative.


  • #1159
    Bayberry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Bayberry


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    They get bonus marks so we've no idea whether they have good grades really. But you know this and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda's narrative.
    Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

    Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.

    There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.


  • #1160
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,882 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Bayberry wrote: »
    Seriously? Do you think that they get some sort of random bonus? That D grade kids are somehow sneaking out with a A? Or are you trying to claim that Gaelscoil kids are pretty dumb, but there's a state conspiracy to fool their parents into thinking that they're smart by giving them a 5% bonus in their exams?

    Yes, the state provides an incentive for kids who their exams through Irish - it makes up for the fact that they don't often can't get textbooks in Irish, among other things.

    There's no bonus once they get into 3rd level though, so if it turned out that this bonus was leaving them seriously unprepared for wherever they ended up at 3rd level, that would be part of the public perception of Gaelscoileanna, and it's not.

    The marks are still artificially inflated though. Unless you think an extra 10% is an obvious reflection of their ability.

    Your point about third level is incorrect, You'd only notice a difference in performance if the points system was an accurate reflection of how difficult a course was.


  • #1161
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    How can a school force students to study Maths and English? That's a genuine question; is there a way that a school can legally make study a subject I'm not required to do? The only reason I didn't try to and get out of them (not that I would have, although I don't think they should be compulsory but I personally found them interesting) is because I didn't know that Irish was the only subject I was specifically required to do, and I'd imagine that goes for a lot of students. Schools may not be offering a choice (which is very wrong, don't misunderstand me) but the choice is and should be there however the state gives students no choice with relation to Irish. Hardly splitting hairs, two very different wrongs.

    It would be interesting to see when did Irish become a mandatory subject in the sense you are using? Was it always the case?

    Was it made mandatory to avoid the sort of legal challenge which would override school subject choice?

    Do you believe you have a genuine choice not to study maths and english if you didn't want to, in any school in the country?


  • Advertisement
  • #1162
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Sure. The standard of answer expected in an English LC paper is far higher than the standard expected in an Irish paper. I suspect you also know this.

    A higher standard of grammar, spelling, sentence construction - all of which allow for a higher standard of argument being made (it's very hard to make a cogent argument for something when you are trying to avoid words you don't know in Irish, or tricky tenses, or sentence structures you are unsure of).

    I'd agree with this. Grade inflation has certainly affected Irish as it has maths ala project maths.

    Could there be an argument made that irish/maths be optional to protect the integrity of the subject instead of the "dumbing-down" process in earnest at present?
    RecordStraight wrote: »
    It's probably not apparent to you, but it has helped you - for example - to hold your own in this discussion, and probably a million other things. People tend to forget that reading comprehension is a learned skill, and it can be learned to different levels. Similarly writing an argument.

    Lol thanks!

    To repeat an argument we heard from another poster earlier, in relation to Irish, it may be beneficial but going on the logic of utility, students may have the time to pick a more useful subject requiring a superior command of reading comprehension and argument.

    If I'm not mistaken, the philosophy of Bono featured on this year's leaving cert english paper... would deciphering his insights be considered a "learned skill"?


  • #1163
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Zen65 wrote: »

    I use the French and German I learned every year, or every other year when I travel.

    I have not used Irish since the day I left school with my "A" in honours Irish.

    Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

    It is important to be aware though that you could have used your Irish had you chosen to do so.


  • #1164
    The Dark Side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭The Dark Side


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Which is completely your personal choice and to be respected.

    So I presume a personal choice not to want to study it in the first place would be equally respected?


  • #1165
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Exactly!

    They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!

    Not so sure about that. Maybe there is no disadvantage in gaelscoils operating in English speaking areas, but in Gaeltachts, this may not be the case.
    Personally, I know of one such gaelscoil, operating in a Gaeltacht, where they had no honours English leaving cert class the year I did my leaving, and a couple of their students failed ordinary level English.


  • #1166
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Dark Side wrote: »
    So I presume a personal choice not to want to study it in the first place would be equally respected?

    Not when it comes to core subjects.

    Would you respect a child's choice not to learn English or Maths?


  • #1167
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    HIB wrote: »
    Not so sure about that. Maybe there is no disadvantage in gaelscoils operating in English speaking areas, but in Gaeltachts, this may not be the case.
    Personally, I know of one such gaelscoil, operating in a Gaeltacht, where they had no honours English leaving cert class the year I did my leaving, and a couple of their students failed ordinary level English.

    I think that's a pity - a good number of people fail ordinary level English each year from an English speaking background also.

    They should get the support they deserve so that they can thrive in all core subjects.


  • #1168
    The Dark Side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭The Dark Side


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Not when it comes to core subjects.

    Would you respect a child's choice not to learn English or Maths?

    Of course I would.

    I would encourage them to study those subject though as they are very useful in life.

    I wouldn't force any child to study any subject they don't want to though.

    I guess my respect for personal choice outstrips your own.


  • #1169
    HIB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭HIB


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I think that's a pity - a good number of people fail ordinary level English each year from an English speaking background also.

    They should get the support they deserve so that they can thrive in all core subjects.

    It is a huge pity. As far as I know, university access is barred to those failing English in their leaving cert.
    Poor achievement in English seems like a huge price to pay for fluency in a dead language.
    A number of parents in that school seemed to agree. They withdrew their kids and sent them to the local 'ordinary' English speaking school, for their senior cycle years.


  • #1170
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Dark Side wrote: »
    Of course I would.

    I would encourage them to study those subject though as they are very useful in life.

    I wouldn't force any child to study any subject they don't want to though.

    I guess my respect for personal choice outstrips your own.

    And I totally respect your philosophy of education.

    You see, your argument isn't specific to Irish, it's about compulsory subjects in general. And that is no problem, except that's not what this discussion is about.


  • Advertisement
  • #1171
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    HIB wrote: »
    It is a huge pity. As far as I know, university access is barred to those failing English in their leaving cert.
    Poor achievement in English seems like a huge price to pay for fluency in a dead language.
    A number of parents in that school seemed to agree. They withdrew their kids and sent them to the local 'ordinary' English speaking school, for their senior cycle years.

    University access is barred to those failing Irish in their leaving cert also as far as I know?

    Poor achievement in any national language is not a good thing.

    However, I think it is accepted from the discussion we had about gaelscoileanna a few pages previous that sending a child to a Gaelscoil does not disadvantage a child in general


Advertisement